[Louisxiii]

From what i hear, the new 2006 Mini Cooper S will have a Turbo , replacing the supercharge, now i don't know how many pony's but i do know that this is crazy...not only that but BMW is also coming out with Turbo's in their new 3 series, M3 and also the new 2 series...

So what do you think? good move or bad?

[ScottyB]

Personally, I will be reserving my judgement until I've driven one

Tho... I am in love with my current supercharged 2004 model... so a justified move would be VERY difficult

You may also want to pop over to the Future Variants forum for more info and threads on the MINI for 2007... including threads such as this:

Mini 2007

By the sounds of it, we probably wont see the S equivalent until 2008 anyways.


Lovin' the supercharger

[Shooler]

Personally I am all for turbo charging. Especially since there are systems out now that have virtually no lag. I for one can't wait, although I am very much enjoying my 05 MCC.

[everythingsablur]

Quote: Originally Posted by Louisxiii

From what i hear, the new 2006 Mini Cooper S will have a Turbo , replacing the supercharge, now i don't know how many pony's but i do know that this is crazy...not only that but BMW is also coming out with Turbo's in their new 3 series, M3 and also the new 2 series...

So what do you think? good move or bad?

Turbo is going to be in for the 2007 model (the next generation MINI), or so the speculation goes. The 2006 model year is still going to use a supercharger in the S model.

Now as for what's better, there is no definitive answer on that as it's really all personal preference. A turbocharger would give you more tuning potential a top-end power, but a supercharger gives you a power increase through the entire range. Different strokes for different folks. I love having a supercharger, personally. The power is there from the get go, and it just has a very distinctive sound and personality all it's own.

[brett]

Its a 3kw power increase with the turbo. But talking to someone high up in the factory I voice by opion of going turbo. "If it goes Turbo I'll keep my CooperS thank you"

[Agent8008]

And from what I remember, Audi has said in a couple of years they may be nixing turbo's from their line-up to help increase long term reliability.

[Paul]

Mercedes are also planning to drop Superchargers in favour of Turbos as far as I know.

[Demimonde]

Understanding about turbos seems to be rooted in past iterations of the technology. Turbos main disadvantages relative to supercharges were boost lag, coking (essentially oil burning and gumming up the turbo), exhaust restriction, and difficulty meeting emission regulations. The latter effect is caused by the fact that, unlike superchargers, turbos use waste energy. The use of this energy lowers the temperature of the exhaust gases which then makes the catalytic converter less effective.

The first two were corrected some time ago with technology fixes. The third has been minimized. Engineers seem to now be mastering fourth issue as well primarily by having engines that produce much cleaner exhaust at the manifold.

Turbos have several advantages. First, because they use waste energy rather than being driven off the crank, they are more efficient and can provide both more power and better mileage with the same boost pressure. Two, they have far fewer parts and can now be made to deliver better reliability. Three, they have considerably MORE midrange torque than superchargers because a properly designed system will be near full boost by 2,500 - 3,000 rpm rather than at the red-line. Look for the 2007 Cooper S to post much-improved 50-70 times.

The bottom line is that if they can meet the coming emissions regs, it's no contest. I'm looking forward to trading in my supercharged S on the new turbo.

[Torkor]

Everybody seems to agree that the new S will be turbocharged, but how about the Cooper? Some say there will be a 140hp naturally aspirated engine, but from the Newsarchive the 143 hp engine is turbocharged:

Quote:

A 1.6-litre atmospheric engine with a variable valve timing distribution and a power output of 85 kW (115 hp)
A 1.6-litre direct injection, compressed turbo engine with a variable geometry turbocharger and a power output of 105 kW (143 hp)

So - can I expect my next Cooper to be turbocharged or not? What do you think?

Tormod

[minicabrio]

Quote: Originally Posted by Torkor

Everybody seems to agree that the new S will be turbocharged, but how about the Cooper? Some say there will be a 140hp naturally aspirated engine, but from the Newsarchive the 143 hp engine is turbocharged:



So - can I expect my next Cooper to be turbocharged or not? What do you think?

Tormod

I would expect power levels to remain almost identical to those of the current model.

Thus, There will be a 115bhp normally aspirated Cooper, a 170bhp turbo Cooper S, but there is a rumour of a 143bhp turbo Cooper 'sport'!

I've got a deposit down on the 143 model

[minimc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Demimonde

Understanding about turbos seems to be rooted in past iterations of the technology. Turbos main disadvantages relative to supercharges were boost lag, coking (essentially oil burning and gumming up the turbo), exhaust restriction, and difficulty meeting emission regulations. The latter effect is caused by the fact that, unlike superchargers, turbos use waste energy. The use of this energy lowers the temperature of the exhaust gases which then makes the catalytic converter less effective.

The first two were corrected some time ago with technology fixes. The third has been minimized. Engineers seem to now be mastering fourth issue as well primarily by having engines that produce much cleaner exhaust at the manifold.

Turbos have several advantages. First, because they use waste energy rather than being driven off the crank, they are more efficient and can provide both more power and better mileage with the same boost pressure. Two, they have far fewer parts and can now be made to deliver better reliability. Three, they have considerably MORE midrange torque than superchargers because a properly designed system will be near full boost by 2,500 - 3,000 rpm rather than at the red-line. Look for the 2007 Cooper S to post much-improved 50-70 times.

The bottom line is that if they can meet the coming emissions regs, it's no contest. I'm looking forward to trading in my supercharged S on the new turbo.

I'll go along with everything except that bit about the boost lag.

Fact is we've only got a 1.6L engine. To spin the turbo up requires sufficient exhaust gas volume/velocity. A 1.6L engine can't instantaneously produce enough exhaust gas/velocity to produce truly useful boost. You will have lag - it's unavoidable. A dual scroll or sequential turbo configuration will help, but still won't eliminate this reality.

I do appreciate what turbos are capable of, including the ease of tuning for more power & fuel efficiency they can provide.

For me two things stick out re: the new MINI & turbo... Driving experience/preference & perception of quality/sophistication:

My commute is 50% highway 50% city/country roads. There are opportunities to open the car up, but I can’t see the turbo improving on my current experience, save for the highway portion. And the highway isn't where I enjoy the MINI most. Hell…getting on or off the highway (ramps) is the most/only 'fun' apsect to driving on it!

The second perspective... and this might be sour grapes is that the 07' MINI and MCS is looking more and more 'cheap' to me. ...Cheap to make, cheap in the dumbing down of the rear suspension & the changeover to the turbo/aluminum engine. If it were only one item I'd have to think myself pessimistic, but when one combines the current success of the MINI with all of the new changes IMO = less sophistication in the pursuit of profit. Seems to me BMW's marketing believes MINI is now an ICON which can be sold on shape & name more than features.

I'm squarely in the 'won't go turbo' camp. I like my torque on demand. The only thing that could make me switch would be a turbo/supercharger combination. I want to have my cake and eat it too.

[LMB]

Bad.....

The whine of the Supercharger is part of the Mini's character.

[dklug1]

I might not have any idea of what I'm talking about, but I have a strange feeling by BMW changing the MINI in '07 they are going to instantly create a very sought out couple of cars, meaning the 2002-2006 MINI's. I am very happy to have gotten my MCS last week. I don't think I will like the 07 nearly as well. I think some of it's charm is going to be removed and I do think that in the years down the line the the first generation of MINI's will be much more revered than this upcoming second generation of "New MINI" especially the 05's and 06's due to their improvements over the earlier ones... Just my thoughts...

[LMB]

Quote: Originally Posted by dklug1

I might not have any idea of what I'm talking about, but I have a strange feeling by BMW changing the MINI in '07 they are going to instantly create a very sought out couple of cars, meaning the 2002-2006 MINI's. I am very happy to have gotten my MCS last week. I don't think I will like the 07 nearly as well. I think some of it's charm is going to be removed and I do think that in the years down the line the the first generation of MINI's will be much more revered than this upcoming second generation of "New MINI" especially the 05's and 06's due to their improvements over the earlier ones... Just my thoughts...

Maybe.

[Rayman]

Quote: Originally Posted by LMB

Bad.....

The whine of the Supercharger is part of the Mini's character.

Maybe the new mini's charcteristic will be a dump valve going off. Does anyone have any idea which type of dump valve will be used on the 2007 turbo if it all goes to plan? Will it be the Atmospheric wooshy style one like for a scooby or a re-circulating type one say on a seat cupra R? Any ideas?

Cheers!

[Eelke]

I doubt BMW will have any of their cars (except maybe for really hard core ones) make any kind of whooshing sound from under the bonnet, at least one in every two S buyers would be back at their doorstep the next morning after picking up the car

I also think it's a shame the next S won't have the supercharger whine, it reminds me of the whine a classic Mini produces.

[minigolf]

Turbo = 30% power increase from aftermarket chip for AU$2000 or less.

I like turbos.

I think most people that have owned, or driven, a chipped recent model VW or Audi turbo would agree.

[eddieboyII]

no more whine.. but psssssst!!!

[dklug1]

I agree I will miss the super charger. I just I still have a bad taste in my month from the 1980's when it seemed that every sick little POS was a "turbo" or as we used to call them a turblow! they made some noise but couldn't ever seem to get out of their own way. I guess it might be faster. It sure doesn't sound as cool. It might be better if it was a twin turbo! Hmmmmmm...

[minigolf]

Bottom line for me is driving the MINI is a hoot because of it's handling characteristics. Engine is just the icing on the cake.