[Richard Korby]

Here is the latest from my SA . It’s normal for these cars , it’s the oil bleeding down from the lifters and takes a while to lubricate , it’s doing no damage and other BMW ’s do it also . Chain tentioner has nothing to do with it .

[zyo]

Hi Derek, I will try and find out as it's got to go back in shortly for the engine noise.

[wiggis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Richard Korby (original)

Here is the latest from my SA . It’s normal for these cars , it’s the oil bleeding down from the lifters and takes a while to lubricate , it’s doing no damage and other BMW ’s do it also . Chain tentioner has nothing to do with it .

The year 1999 and 2000 E39 BMW M5's had a similar problem - oil would drain out of the VANOS units when the engine was stopped, and it caused a hell of a rattle (similar sounding to the MCS clips I've heard) for a few seconds on startup. No rhyme or reason as to when it would do it and when it would not as far as I could tell. My own 2000 M5 did it for nearly 4 years before I sold it - it seemed to be worse if the engine had got nice and hot, and was then left and re-started before the engine got totally cold (i.e. while the oil was still reasonably warm) - but as I say, no real repeatable pattern which you could use to always provoke the noise. While it sounded awful for a few seconds, it never seemed to cause any problems, or get any worse. Various people over at M5Board.com experimented with different oils, and some reported success, only to come back later with the noise back.

In 2001, BMW introduced a special VANOS Oil Pressure Accumulator which would store some oil under high pressure while the engine was running, keep it in reserve when you stopped the engine, and 'zap' it into the VANOS gear just as you were starting the engine next time round. It cured the problem, and BMW made it available as a 'quiet' warranty repair for owners of older models who complained about the noise. If I remember rightly, it was about £1,100 worth fitted if you wanted it done outside of warranty (parts alone were about £600, and it was possible, though not easy, to do it DIY and then hop along to BMW to reprogram the DME to control the valve on the accumulator at the right times).

It took BMW just under 2 years to develop a definite fix for the problem with the M5, and there was a hell of a lot of speculation and experimentation by owners during that time.

Just thought I'd mention it

[Boro Boy]

You'd think that BMW would have incorporated such a device into it's new engine then? Unless they thought they'd engineered the problem out in another way. If retrofitting a version of one of these solves the problem as it did on the M5 engines seven years ago ... I wonder if MINI will offer a similar 'quiet warranty repair' arrangement.

[Japper]

Mine did the 'noise' for only the 3rd time yesterday.

Reversed car out of garage, took bikes out, put car back in. Started car 2 hours later and hey presto, noisey start up, though not really bad.

Temp. 17 deg. C.
Level surface in garage.

There's still no ryhm and reason to this

[Boro Boy]

Mine played the whole clatter symphony this morning, despite it being 14ºC. Starting to think it's not temperature related at all.

Have unearthed some more technical info on the VANOS fix BMW introduced for the M5/Z8s ...

http://www.bmwz8.us/pdf/zz-VANOS_s62.pdf

Note that it states that "the noise has no effect on engine power output or durability ...", and that the fix is to be applied "on a customer complaint basis only ".

[caesar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boro Boy (original)

Mine played the whole clatter symphony this morning, despite it being 14ºC. Starting to think it's not temperature related at all.

Have unearthed some more technical info on the VANOS fix BMW introduced for the M5/Z8s ...

http://www.bmwz8.us/pdf/zz-VANOS_s62.pdf

Note that it states that "the noise has no effect on engine power output or durability ...", and that the fix is to be applied "on a customer complaint basis only ".

The fix is dated 2001. The R56 MCS has a totally different engine so I doubt very much the relevance of the link.

[MJS]

hmmm

still we have so many questions and theories with no answers.....

[Boro Boy]

Different engine yes, but I for one feel the cause of the problem to be the same in both. Surprising yes if this is the case, as you would expect BMW to not allow a similar problem to arise ... unless they decided that the cost saving of not fitting the additional component outweighed the consequences of disgruntled customers (and maybe lost sales)?

[Bluebabe]

My apologies if this has already been brought up!
It's been a long time since I revisited these pages in their entiriety!!
Have been scoping other sites; Nam, Motorfile,Michigan mini motoring club.

Some interesting and detailed postings going on in all, especially the latter
Check these out ( best to scroll through the pages, there aren't too many 7 I counted last)
These were written by Tom, and appear usually in blue print, except the last 3 which are black print. I think we may be nearly there!!!! Just got to convince BMW/MINI

COLD START NOISE

COLD START NOISE

COLD START NOISE

COLD START NOISE

COLD START NOISE

COLD START NOISE

[caesar]

You did an excellent job on obtaining this information.

The last of the links sums up the situation as posted by Tom: -

"Heard something interesting regarding the factory engine oil fill: BMW specifies Castrol SAE 0W30 and PSA specifies TOTAL SAE 5W30. Note that PSA builds the R56 MINI engines.

One can infer from this that SAE 0W30 can be used in the MINI's engine without worry. This should minimize, but not totally eliminate, incidents of cold start noise. However, I recommend you get it in writing from the dealer that use of Castrol 0W30 full synthetic engine oil will not void your engine warranty should you decide to change to SAE 0W30 full synthetic.
>>tom<<

It has been mentioned by myself and others in earlier threads that Castrol Edge 0W-30 could reduce occurrence of the 'noise' especially in colder weather, or if the car is parked on a slope.

[Boro Boy]

Wow, Michigan Tom certainly knows his hydraulic lash adjusters! This is becoming a real education. Even if we never get to the bottom of it, we'll at least all end up being expert mechanics .

[Bluebabe]

Thanks for the praise! It certainly was a slog through the Nam site and then the Michigan!
The Missus reckons I need my head testing!http://www.mini2.com/forum/attachmen...d=1210485 550
There are certainly some pointers that should click with many sufferers.
The sloping of the ground exasperating the situation of drain down for instance.

There are a couple of cures for cold start noise. First, make sure you're using the proper engine oil: full synthetic SAE 5W-30. Second, park on a level surface. Parking on a slope will exaggerate the problem since it reduces the level of oil in the HLA reservoir. It can take several seconds of engine running for the oil pump to refill oil galleries, and until then, the HLA must depend on the oil within its reservoir to maintain function until pressurized oil arrives. Third, have your dry lash adjusted to 0.75±0.25mm. Due to engine manufacturing tolerance stackups, your MINI could have up to about 3mm of dry lash at each of its 16 valves. Dry lash is the clearance between the valve tip and the fully compressed HLA when the follower is on the cam base circle. (If you measure dry lash between the cam and the roller follower, be sure to correct for the rocker arm ratio.) The higher the dry lash, the higher the likelihood of air ingestion and the greater the volume of air that can be ingested and the more time idling to purge it. The TriTec engine's dry lash is adjusted by installing lash caps on the valve tips. The R56 PSA engine's dry lash is adjusted by installing a shim beneath the HLA. A side benefit of adjusting your dry lash is that the HLA will have higher hydraulic stiffness, and that will increase the valvetrain natural frequency, potentially enabling higher RPM operation.(courtesy of tom michigan mini motorin club)


I am no expert in engine mechanics or even an amateur but its obvious gravity and engine design are a contributing factor!
This explains about the air in the system.

0W-30 should help the problem, but it still depends on dry lash. Assuming the hydraulic lash adjuster (HLA) has a Ø9mm plunger, if there's 2mm dry lash, the HLA reservoir must transfer 2mm of plunger displacement, viz. 127mm³, of oil to the HLA high pressure chamber (HPC) during cold start. [Note, this only occurs at valves which were not closed at shut-down. The HLA will be compressed to their plunger bottomed length due to the force of the valve spring at open valves.] Unfortunately 5W-30 doesn't flow well at cold temperatures, and some of the oil will stick to the walls of the reservoir as it drains by gravity (there's no oil pressure in the cylinder head yet!) into the HPC. As a result air is sucked into the HPC and viola, cold start noise. Cold start noise will persist until that air can get out of the HPC. Plungers and bodies are select fitted with a radial clearance of about 2.5 microns. (A mechanical pencil loaded with 0.5mm lead makes a dot that's 500 microns in diameter!) It takes awhile for the air in the HPC to escape thru that clearance. 0W-30 flows better at cold temperatures than 5W-30, and less oil will stick to the sides of the reservoir. That might be enough to prevent air from being sucked into the HPC. At the least it will reduce the amount of air and the time to quiet. (courtesy of Tom michigan mini motorin club) COLD START NOISE

On a personal note, I visited my dealer to enquire when my R56 pepper white with black roof would start being manufactured. I have put down my deposit plus my o5 leccie blue mcs (Bluebabe) as PX ( I will miss her) I did consider cancelling my order and went as far as enquiring wether they had sold Bluebabe yet (she hasn't been on the forecourt from the start)!
As I sat down to talk to Lee the sales manager, I glanced behind me and there was a R56 pepper white, black roof plus sunroof, darkened rear glass and black R90cross spokes with silver rims. I fell in love straight away and forgot about cancelling the order!
I did talk about my concerns over the issues. but you know what they didn't feign ignorance this time! Instead Lee the salesmanager picked up the phone and talked to a techie on microphone, You'd never guess what they said!!! .... The techie said it was all due to the vacum pipe on the valve train and that it should be removed by a second person when you start up!!!

Well after picking myself off the floor,(you have to laugh) I thought of showing them the printed out text from Tom and others that I had in my hand.. But you know it would have been a waste of time! I did try to explain some of the stuff about the HLA's but their blank faces were cracking me up! I know I wont be laughing when the car arrives! so no offence to anybody else! Sorry about the smilies! but looking through those other sites like Nam,
I really am jealous of their smilies, they really are a laugh especially Once again I apologise ( I am a newbie) Some would not work Shame!

This is my last look pics of Bluebabe after I PX'd her at Farnborough dealership. I hope I'm doing the right thing!

[caesar]

We now have as a result of Bluebabe's diligent research and the technical knowledge of Tom Michigan a technical analysis of the noise at last.

The BIG question is what do we do next

[Bluebabe]

Isn't it obvious!!..... we make Tom Chief Executive of customer services and repairs for BMW/MINI
Then we award him an OBE, MBE. and drive on happily ever after! !!......... I wish

But seriously he has stated that he is going to try to approach BMW with a fix once he has produced a working part. but it might be some months away!!

If we can some how bring his worth to the attention of BMW/MINI then it may follow nicely[IMG]
We need some good marketing dudes to promote him. Anyone know someone

[taskmaxter]

I had the cold start noise happen to me today for the very first time in my 2008 S Clubman. Sounded like a diesal engine. Lasted for a couple of minutes and then went away. The thing is, it was a nice 80 degrees F outside and it was on a flat surface in our garage. The car has only got 500 miles on it. This is crazy.

[Den W]

The Bubbles burst after having the upgraded parts fitted the noise returned, not as bad as before but there all the same...wonder if the new works will make the noise?

[caesar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Den W (original)

The Bubbles burst after having the upgraded parts fitted the noise returned, not as bad as before but there all the same...wonder if the new works will make the noise?

Touch wood my June 07 build MCS is as quiet as a Sewing Machine even after being parked facing downward on the drive for hours. The opposite applied a few weeks ago when the weather was colder.

[Bluebabe]

Visit my gallery to view pics of a R56 MCS engine with the cylinder head cover removed. Also included are photos of the spark plugs, hydraulic lash adjuster (HLA), roller finger follower (RFF), and a view of the HLA bore in the cylinder head. Note that RFF and HLA may indeed be removed and replaced without camshaft removal. If Michigan Tom is correct the sooner MINI take note the sooner they will be forking out less for replacement components! And tthe sooner we will be happy bunnies!! ARE YOU LISTENING MINI????????????
Michigan MINI Motorin' Club - tom

[caesar]

Quote: Originally Posted by caesar (original)

Touch wood my June 07 build MCS is as quiet as a Sewing Machine even after being parked facing downward on the drive for hours. The opposite applied a few weeks ago when the weather was colder.

I spoke too soon......started the MCS this evening after it had been parked for 5-hours on the downward slope of the drive leading to the garage, and the noise occurred

Turned off the engine and restarted and it was OK.......have used this method a number of times with success