MINI2

danb · Jul 31st, 2007, 09:29 AM

I've got a problem with my MCS at the moment, which sounds alot like Popey's original problem which is why I'm asking about rejection at such an early stage.

I bought my car from Castle (York), but I work in Warrington during the week. I had David Holmes (Stockport) look at the car on the 19th, and they sent a "PUMA" to BMW. BMW came back with a suggested fix, which was done yesterday - and the car is still exactly the same. They are now sending another puma to BMW to see what is suggested.

I contacted Castle to find out where I would stand if I wanted to reject the car in the future, and (long story short) they said that any work carried out by David Holmes would have to be done again by them. I.e. they want to try and repair it themselves.
I can see both sides of the argument, but surely when the BMW service system is completely centralised it would be obvious that the car cannot be fixed.

The reason I am posting this, is that I don't want to spend the next month letting David Holmes try to fix the problem - then finally resign to the fact that I will have to reject the car, just for Castle to insist they get at least another three tries at repairing it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to reject the car just for the sake of it, but if I do get sick of waiting I don't want to have to let Castle mess with the car for another month.

popey · Jul 31st, 2007, 11:03 AM

You can reject a car without them even having one go at fixing the problem. The 3 trys is more of a guide line. If you feel they have had the car for such a period where the problem should of been fixed, a time when you should be out enjoing your brand new car then maybe you can/should ask for a new one.

I would see what they come back with and take it from there. How long have they had your car?

KenL · Jul 31st, 2007, 11:41 AM

Did I not post something along the lines of you should let the supplying dealer fix it?

I know what you are saying but letting another dealer loose on the car has given the dealer a reason to put you off trying to reject it. Your contract is with the supplying dealer, not MINI.

However, the car is still faulty and should be replaced if not fixed. If I were you, I would give it back to the supplying dealer, telling them if they do not fix it now you are rejecting.

danb · Jul 31st, 2007, 12:32 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by popey (original)

I would see what they come back with and take it from there. How long have they had your car?

I've explained the situation to David Holmes, and told them I'm going to do exactly that. They said they will ring me when BMW come back to them, and I can decide what to do from there. The car is 6 weeks old now, but I reported the problem when it was about 3 weeks old.

Quote: Originally Posted by KenL (original)

However, the car is still faulty and should be replaced if not fixed. If I were you, I would give it back to the supplying dealer, telling them if they do not fix it now you are rejecting.

The problem with this is that I work in Warrington and stay in Manchester Monday - Friday. I can take the car to them on a Saturday, but they will not let me have a courtesy car for a week.

danb · Jul 31st, 2007, 02:02 PM

David Holmes have just called me to say that BMW have requested that they install a new clutch and flywheel, booked in for next Tuesday.

I informed them of what Castle have said re: rejection, and they reckon that Castle cannot insist that the work is done with them as (as I said) all work is documented centrally and they are working on BMW UK orders anyway.

Arnbut · Jul 31st, 2007, 03:56 PM

The new clutch/flywheel/trans didn't fix my car --- a new one is on the way for me.
I had other problems with it though and the dealer worked with both Mini and me.

Best of luck.

danb · Jul 31st, 2007, 05:45 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Arnbut (original)

The new clutch/flywheel/trans didn't fix my car --- a new one is on the way for me.
I had other problems with it though and the dealer worked with both Mini and me.

Best of luck.

If the clutch/flyhweel doesn't fix it I'm not really sure what to do.

I don't really want the hassle of rejecting the car, but I can't keep going back to the dealers every week for another stab in the dark.

danb · Nov 26th, 2007, 10:06 AM

Well, back in July they changed the clutch & flywheel - all was well and good until recently.

I rung them a couple of weeks ago to complain about the car becoming jerky if you let it slow to tickover in first, which was how it all started last time. Rather unsuprisingly, the noise came back last week - when I had a big guy that I work with in the car. Now, when I'm on my own in the car the noise isn't there, but when I have someone over about 16st in the passenger seat the noise is back (and presumably when 3 people are in).

I am coming up to six months from purchase, which as I understand it makes a fairly big difference re: rejection. I do not want them to change the clutch and flywheel again, just for the problem to come back in another 4 months. What are peoples suggestions here? The car is in with David Holmes on Friday.

I can see the first problem already - they will go out with 1 person in the car and the noise won't happen - but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it

medilloni · Nov 26th, 2007, 11:15 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original)

Well, back in July they changed the clutch & flywheel - all was well and good until recently.

I rung them a couple of weeks ago to complain about the car becoming jerky if you let it slow to tickover in first, which was how it all started last time. Rather unsuprisingly, the noise came back last week - when I had a big guy that I work with in the car. Now, when I'm on my own in the car the noise isn't there, but when I have someone over about 16st in the passenger seat the noise is back (and presumably when 3 people are in).

I am coming up to six months from purchase, which as I understand it makes a fairly big difference re: rejection. I do not want them to change the clutch and flywheel again, just for the problem to come back in another 4 months. What are peoples suggestions here? The car is in with David Holmes on Friday.

I can see the first problem already - they will go out with 1 person in the car and the noise won't happen - but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it

I'm no Lawyer, but here's how mine was rejected with the minimum amount of stress. The following plan was stuck to with military precision

1. First and foremost, keep a diary of every fault, every time it happened, and the circumstances in which it did. Keep smiling, be polite, NEVER show your anger. ALWAYS show how hurt you are!
2. In your diary, keep an exact record of every conversation/email/letter with your dealer/dealers AND the finance company (if one was involved).
3. Let your dealer know that you have, and will continue to keep, an exact record of everything (all of the above). Conversationally something like, "I started recording everything from the start, because I thought it'll help you guys if you have to try for a refund from MINI - just ask if you want it to send to them, I'll help you all I can...." Smarmy as hell, but works.
4. Let your dealer know that you are unhappy BUT that you are happy to work to the best solution for you both - at the same time make sure they know that YOU know that this is between you and the dealer, NOT MINI!!!!!
Whilst you don't have to work to fix it with them, the idea is that they think you are extremely reasonable - but that you are well informed and very calm BUT, that you are completely determined ('nicely evil' is good), ALSO, it helps to have friendly conversations with the service manager (you need him onside) and preferably the sales manager too. They are the ones that will give MINI an ear bashing because they'll know you're determined. I used these conversations to drop hints like, "I'm surprised there's still a Puma out for this, this faults all over the Internet. Even Youtube. Haven't you seen it? Oh, well here's the link".
5. In all of your dealings, voice your disappointment with the buying and owning experience. This is extremely important - MINI sell the car on emotion very heavily, it's this that you're aiming at.
6. All of the above is your game plan for what you know you are going to do eventually SO, now you document all of the last few months crappola and serve it to them very politely. At this point I made it clear that I will be happy to have another MINI to the same value.
7. At the point you offically reject with the dealer (now in writing), ASK THEM if they would prefer to deal with you from now on - or your solicitor. They won't want to deal with your solicitor......

All of the above related to undisputed evidence (engine rattle recorded on disc, compared to normal start-up), so think about how you can 'keep evidence' on record. It would be really bad if these faults were really over Youtube like a rash wouldn't it?

Remember. Don't get mad, get even, and showing your anger will alienate the dealer - then it's harder work!

Oh, just so you're not surprised, they don't like the word 'reject'. I got used to saying I'd like the car 'substituted' or 'exchanged' for another with no faults.

Good luck Dan - I'm now the proud owner of a six month newer car, to a spec I much prefer.

Hope you get it sorted.

danb · Nov 26th, 2007, 12:50 PM

Thanks Medilloni - could have done with reading that at the start of the saga!

Forgot to mention before - I now have the problem with starting from cold aswell (engine sounds like a diesel)

medilloni · Nov 26th, 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original)

Thanks Medilloni - could have done with reading that at the start of the saga!

Forgot to mention before - I now have the problem with starting from cold aswell (engine sounds like a diesel)

No problem Dan, just remember - they are trained by experts to put you off. Resilience, patience and persistence will do their head in.

Why not try documenting everything as best you can and show it to your dealer, nicely say that now that you no longer have any faith in the car whatsoever. One thing does stand out though, it did become apparent that exposure on the 'net seems to lift their game a little, if you see what I mean. They do read this!

Need motivation? Go on the configurator and spec a new car with the hindsight from the first one - it really helps you focus

. Hell, mine is twice the car than the first attempt, I might marry it

Louj_MCS · Nov 26th, 2007, 06:29 PM

Medilloni,
I have been using the "Rattles & Squeaks" thread, but my car is now in the the 4th time and she is only 7 weeks old! we did'ny keep a log of problems at the beginning, but have started now.
Can rejection of MCS apply to rattles and squeaks - driving me mad - is this classed as faulty or will they have a get out clause like " i can't hear anything"
any help, thanks

medilloni · Nov 26th, 2007, 11:59 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Louj_MCS (original)

Medilloni,
I have been using the "Rattles & Squeaks" thread, but my car is now in the the 4th time and she is only 7 weeks old! we did'ny keep a log of problems at the beginning, but have started now.
Can rejection of MCS apply to rattles and squeaks - driving me mad - is this classed as faulty or will they have a get out clause like " i can't hear anything"
any help, thanks

Same again Lou, keep a record of all of the rattles and squeakes, if possible try and get the video camera out and make the case, play on the experience of ownership thing and be cheerful, upbeat and determined. Rattlles and squeakes I guess will be harder, so why not make your theme the build quality, the association with BMW, not what you expected etc etc?

There's much said about the 3 attempts to fix, and whilst this isn't a serious defect (maybe), it's still exactly the same as buying sour milk from Sainsbury's. I think the reason why most fail is because they are not relentless. I made the dealer's life hell (nicely!) for three months.

We bought a Cooper and an 'S' within a month - the Cooper has been perfect in every way from day one, my first 'S' was a nightmare of rattling sunroof, trim, rattling engine etc so I just made it a mission to camp out in the sales deck on a Saturday morning.

My 9 year old son drank all their coffee, the salespeople were concerned that my conversations would be heard by new punters, and so on. You just have to make your mind up that it's not their right to make you feel bad because you bought a lemon. At least that's the way I see it, maybe simplistic, but we're talking thousands of your pounds, not a DVD bought on Ebay

And if anyone is wondering, I got all my training by buying a Honda Type R with a bigger list of faults than I've ever seen on this forum, for any typre of MINI

Rejection: It's simple, either they will give up, or you will. It really is that simple..........

Disclaimer: Written with the aid of a few pints of Theakstons Old Peculiar

KenL · Nov 27th, 2007, 06:21 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by medilloni (original)

Disclaimer: Written with the aid of a few pints of Theakstons Old Peculiar

...and you are still making perfect sense

medilloni · Nov 27th, 2007, 07:52 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by KenL (original)

...and you are still making perfect sense

Thanks, Ken. But boy, do I feel rough now

I think I'll be wearing

all day!

@ Louj_MCS - as young as 7 weeks, I'd be tempted to list all the rattles (recorded on DVD if poss), make an appointment for a loan car whilst they fix it and on picking the car up, give them a letter stating that this is the last opportunity for them to permanently cure the faults otherwise you will consider exercising your rights under the Sale Of Goods Act - just to make them aware of your mindset. (That is of course, if you feel they've had enough attempts). Good luck........

danb · Nov 28th, 2007, 08:51 PM

Well, today I rung customer services to enquire about the faults, and whether they had been admitted as common faults or anything yet.

I explained the situation, and that I wanted to reject the car - the girl was extremely helpful and offered to make contact with the sales manager at castle. After finishing the conversation, I wondered if this was wise as the sales manager would be able to ring me knowing what I had to say and being well prepared.

The sales manager rung me @ 4pm, and took all the details of the situation - he was completely civil but made it fairly clear that they didn't want to accept the rejection, and I did exactly the same - explaining politely that I would not be happy with anything else. He rung me back at about 5pm, explaining he had passed the problem on to the GM of Castle Group who would be contacting BMW UK to discuss the matter.

Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive?

KenL · Nov 28th, 2007, 10:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original)

Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive?

The £2.5k extra may be sweet news to the salesman but I would not use this as a bargaining tool.

If they tell you verbally that they are not accepting the rejection, do not accept. Write everything in a letter telling them how the goods they have supplied have contravened the Supply of Goods act etc. Do a search on the net to quote the correct wording etc.

Tell them you have lost faith in the vehicle, have been greatly inconvienced in time and expense etc...

medilloni · Nov 29th, 2007, 08:01 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original)

Well, today I rung customer services to enquire about the faults, and whether they had been admitted as common faults or anything yet.

I explained the situation, and that I wanted to reject the car - the girl was extremely helpful and offered to make contact with the sales manager at castle. After finishing the conversation, I wondered if this was wise as the sales manager would be able to ring me knowing what I had to say and being well prepared.

The sales manager rung me @ 4pm, and took all the details of the situation - he was completely civil but made it fairly clear that they didn't want to accept the rejection, and I did exactly the same - explaining politely that I would not be happy with anything else. He rung me back at about 5pm, explaining he had passed the problem on to the GM of Castle Group who would be contacting BMW UK to discuss the matter.

Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive?

I might have missed some part of the thread Dan, but have you submitted this in writing? It's extremely important that you do. As soon as they receive your written clarifacation on the reasons why you are rejecting the car they are obligated to reply in writing - if not, they look extremely weak in court, and it's this that's good to keep in mind. Yes, you might not want the hassle of this, but the garage need to be absolutely convinced this is second nature to you and you won't hesitate to hand it to your solicitor.

Over the course of (what always feels like a lengthy...) a rejection, it helps to ask them questions that YOU know the answer to. Questions like, "I would like to know what you propose to do to stay within the boundaries of the Sale of Goods Act 1997 "(and the revision, not sure when, I'm at work). Remember to document the conversation in your diary - time, date, who, where, what was said, the reason for the garage visit, anyone else in earshot/part of the conversation etc etc. This type of record keeping scares the hell out of them when they realise how accurate you've been - because they won't have!

Once you get in the habit of handing them written (NOT emails, they 'lose' them) intention of the process you'd like to follow, each time asking for a reply in writing within (for eg.) ten days, then if it did go to court they would look extremely weak for not answering - remember, most cases like this are thrown out (or lost) because one party doesn't follow a guide/plan that provides a clear view of events over time - don't let it be you!

Carrot dangling of extra spending from you? NO! You might need to get slightly (politely) heavy, maybe along the lines of asking for them to replace the faulty goods (don't refer to it as a 'car' in these conversations, it's 'goods fit for the purpose') AND providing some kind of recompence. The reason I say this is because they might try and knock you down in value, mileage etc. They have no right to, but they can still try it on - and so you might want to 'start high and negotiate'.

Steam in where others fear to steam

danb · Nov 29th, 2007, 12:29 PM

I have not contacted them in writing as yet, because I wanted to wait to hear back from David Holmes this Friday. I wasn't expecting the sales manager to ring me before Friday, nevermind pass it to the GM.

As I understand it, before six months have passed the cannot try to penalise me for the miles on the car, or can they? The reason I ask is that this was already mentioned by the sales manager, which I argued.

I plan on writing a letter at some point today, and sending it recorded delivery tomorrow as soon as I hear confirmation from David Holmes that they agree the fault is back.

The reason I am trying to hold back too much on quoting the sales of goods act is that Castle have not actually had the oppurtunity to repair the car themselves, only David Holmes. I am sure if they really want to be awkard that they will use this.

Jul 31st, 2007, 09:29 AM	#1
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Rejection - Do they have to attempt to repair it? I've got a problem with my MCS at the moment, which sounds alot like Popey's original problem which is why I'm asking about rejection at such an early stage. I bought my car from Castle (York), but I work in Warrington during the week. I had David Holmes (Stockport) look at the car on the 19th, and they sent a "PUMA" to BMW. BMW came back with a suggested fix, which was done yesterday - and the car is still exactly the same. They are now sending another puma to BMW to see what is suggested. I contacted Castle to find out where I would stand if I wanted to reject the car in the future, and (long story short) they said that any work carried out by David Holmes would have to be done again by them. I.e. they want to try and repair it themselves. I can see both sides of the argument, but surely when the BMW service system is completely centralised it would be obvious that the car cannot be fixed. The reason I am posting this, is that I don't want to spend the next month letting David Holmes try to fix the problem - then finally resign to the fact that I will have to reject the car, just for Castle to insist they get at least another three tries at repairing it. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to reject the car just for the sake of it, but if I do get sick of waiting I don't want to have to let Castle mess with the car for another month.

Jul 31st, 2007, 11:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
popey Wants an Audi My Classifieds Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Blackpool Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 1,428 Offline	You can reject a car without them even having one go at fixing the problem. The 3 trys is more of a guide line. If you feel they have had the car for such a period where the problem should of been fixed, a time when you should be out enjoing your brand new car then maybe you can/should ask for a new one. I would see what they come back with and take it from there. How long have they had your car? Now With Toyo Rubber!!

Jul 31st, 2007, 11:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
KenL MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2002 Location: Edinburgh Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 5,210 Offline	Did I not post something along the lines of you should let the supplying dealer fix it? I know what you are saying but letting another dealer loose on the car has given the dealer a reason to put you off trying to reject it. Your contract is with the supplying dealer, not MINI. However, the car is still faulty and should be replaced if not fixed. If I were you, I would give it back to the supplying dealer, telling them if they do not fix it now you are rejecting. Red/Black R56 Cooper

Jul 31st, 2007, 03:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
Arnbut Manic Hill-Dweller Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Canton, Georgia Local Time: 02:23 PM Posts: 205 Offline	The new clutch/flywheel/trans didn't fix my car --- a new one is on the way for me. I had other problems with it though and the dealer worked with both Mini and me. Best of luck. Safety fast, Bill

Nov 26th, 2007, 11:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
medilloni The Stig's Dad Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North West UK Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 161 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original) Well, back in July they changed the clutch & flywheel - all was well and good until recently. I rung them a couple of weeks ago to complain about the car becoming jerky if you let it slow to tickover in first, which was how it all started last time. Rather unsuprisingly, the noise came back last week - when I had a big guy that I work with in the car. Now, when I'm on my own in the car the noise isn't there, but when I have someone over about 16st in the passenger seat the noise is back (and presumably when 3 people are in). I am coming up to six months from purchase, which as I understand it makes a fairly big difference re: rejection. I do not want them to change the clutch and flywheel again, just for the problem to come back in another 4 months. What are peoples suggestions here? The car is in with David Holmes on Friday. I can see the first problem already - they will go out with 1 person in the car and the noise won't happen - but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it I'm no Lawyer, but here's how mine was rejected with the minimum amount of stress. The following plan was stuck to with military precision 1. First and foremost, keep a diary of every fault, every time it happened, and the circumstances in which it did. Keep smiling, be polite, NEVER show your anger. ALWAYS show how hurt you are! 2. In your diary, keep an exact record of every conversation/email/letter with your dealer/dealers AND the finance company (if one was involved). 3. Let your dealer know that you have, and will continue to keep, an exact record of everything (all of the above). Conversationally something like, "I started recording everything from the start, because I thought it'll help you guys if you have to try for a refund from MINI - just ask if you want it to send to them, I'll help you all I can...." Smarmy as hell, but works. 4. Let your dealer know that you are unhappy BUT that you are happy to work to the best solution for you both - at the same time make sure they know that YOU know that this is between you and the dealer, NOT MINI!!!!! Whilst you don't have to work to fix it with them, the idea is that they think you are extremely reasonable - but that you are well informed and very calm BUT, that you are completely determined ('nicely evil' is good), ALSO, it helps to have friendly conversations with the service manager (you need him onside) and preferably the sales manager too. They are the ones that will give MINI an ear bashing because they'll know you're determined. I used these conversations to drop hints like, "I'm surprised there's still a Puma out for this, this faults all over the Internet. Even Youtube. Haven't you seen it? Oh, well here's the link". 5. In all of your dealings, voice your disappointment with the buying and owning experience. This is extremely important - MINI sell the car on emotion very heavily, it's this that you're aiming at. 6. All of the above is your game plan for what you know you are going to do eventually SO, now you document all of the last few months crappola and serve it to them very politely. At this point I made it clear that I will be happy to have another MINI to the same value. 7. At the point you offically reject with the dealer (now in writing), ASK THEM if they would prefer to deal with you from now on - or your solicitor. They won't want to deal with your solicitor...... All of the above related to undisputed evidence (engine rattle recorded on disc, compared to normal start-up), so think about how you can 'keep evidence' on record. It would be really bad if these faults were really over Youtube like a rash wouldn't it? Remember. Don't get mad, get even, and showing your anger will alienate the dealer - then it's harder work! Oh, just so you're not surprised, they don't like the word 'reject'. I got used to saying I'd like the car 'substituted' or 'exchanged' for another with no faults. Good luck Dan - I'm now the proud owner of a six month newer car, to a spec I much prefer. Hope you get it sorted. "He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant, and she was the East River."

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Jul 31st, 2007, 12:32 PM	#4 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by popey (original) I would see what they come back with and take it from there. How long have they had your car? I've explained the situation to David Holmes, and told them I'm going to do exactly that. They said they will ring me when BMW come back to them, and I can decide what to do from there. The car is 6 weeks old now, but I reported the problem when it was about 3 weeks old. Quote: Originally Posted by KenL (original) However, the car is still faulty and should be replaced if not fixed. If I were you, I would give it back to the supplying dealer, telling them if they do not fix it now you are rejecting. The problem with this is that I work in Warrington and stay in Manchester Monday - Friday. I can take the car to them on a Saturday, but they will not let me have a courtesy car for a week.

Jul 31st, 2007, 02:02 PM	#5 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	David Holmes have just called me to say that BMW have requested that they install a new clutch and flywheel, booked in for next Tuesday. I informed them of what Castle have said re: rejection, and they reckon that Castle cannot insist that the work is done with them as (as I said) all work is documented centrally and they are working on BMW UK orders anyway.

Jul 31st, 2007, 05:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Arnbut (original) The new clutch/flywheel/trans didn't fix my car --- a new one is on the way for me. I had other problems with it though and the dealer worked with both Mini and me. Best of luck. If the clutch/flyhweel doesn't fix it I'm not really sure what to do. I don't really want the hassle of rejecting the car, but I can't keep going back to the dealers every week for another stab in the dark.

Nov 26th, 2007, 10:06 AM	#8 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Well, back in July they changed the clutch & flywheel - all was well and good until recently. I rung them a couple of weeks ago to complain about the car becoming jerky if you let it slow to tickover in first, which was how it all started last time. Rather unsuprisingly, the noise came back last week - when I had a big guy that I work with in the car. Now, when I'm on my own in the car the noise isn't there, but when I have someone over about 16st in the passenger seat the noise is back (and presumably when 3 people are in). I am coming up to six months from purchase, which as I understand it makes a fairly big difference re: rejection. I do not want them to change the clutch and flywheel again, just for the problem to come back in another 4 months. What are peoples suggestions here? The car is in with David Holmes on Friday. I can see the first problem already - they will go out with 1 person in the car and the noise won't happen - but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it

Nov 26th, 2007, 12:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Thanks Medilloni - could have done with reading that at the start of the saga! Forgot to mention before - I now have the problem with starting from cold aswell (engine sounds like a diesel)

Nov 26th, 2007, 06:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
medilloni The Stig's Dad Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North West UK Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 161 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original) Thanks Medilloni - could have done with reading that at the start of the saga! Forgot to mention before - I now have the problem with starting from cold aswell (engine sounds like a diesel) No problem Dan, just remember - they are trained by experts to put you off. Resilience, patience and persistence will do their head in. Why not try documenting everything as best you can and show it to your dealer, nicely say that now that you no longer have any faith in the car whatsoever. One thing does stand out though, it did become apparent that exposure on the 'net seems to lift their game a little, if you see what I mean. They do read this! Need motivation? Go on the configurator and spec a new car with the hindsight from the first one - it really helps you focus. Hell, mine is twice the car than the first attempt, I might marry it "He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant, and she was the East River."

Nov 26th, 2007, 06:29 PM	#12 (permalink)
Louj_MCS MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Guildford Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 20 Offline	Medilloni, I have been using the "Rattles & Squeaks" thread, but my car is now in the the 4th time and she is only 7 weeks old! we did'ny keep a log of problems at the beginning, but have started now. Can rejection of MCS apply to rattles and squeaks - driving me mad - is this classed as faulty or will they have a get out clause like " i can't hear anything" any help, thanks

Nov 26th, 2007, 11:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
medilloni The Stig's Dad Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North West UK Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 161 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Louj_MCS (original) Medilloni, I have been using the "Rattles & Squeaks" thread, but my car is now in the the 4th time and she is only 7 weeks old! we did'ny keep a log of problems at the beginning, but have started now. Can rejection of MCS apply to rattles and squeaks - driving me mad - is this classed as faulty or will they have a get out clause like " i can't hear anything" any help, thanks Same again Lou, keep a record of all of the rattles and squeakes, if possible try and get the video camera out and make the case, play on the experience of ownership thing and be cheerful, upbeat and determined. Rattlles and squeakes I guess will be harder, so why not make your theme the build quality, the association with BMW, not what you expected etc etc? There's much said about the 3 attempts to fix, and whilst this isn't a serious defect (maybe), it's still exactly the same as buying sour milk from Sainsbury's. I think the reason why most fail is because they are not relentless. I made the dealer's life hell (nicely!) for three months. We bought a Cooper and an 'S' within a month - the Cooper has been perfect in every way from day one, my first 'S' was a nightmare of rattling sunroof, trim, rattling engine etc so I just made it a mission to camp out in the sales deck on a Saturday morning. My 9 year old son drank all their coffee, the salespeople were concerned that my conversations would be heard by new punters, and so on. You just have to make your mind up that it's not their right to make you feel bad because you bought a lemon. At least that's the way I see it, maybe simplistic, but we're talking thousands of your pounds, not a DVD bought on Ebay And if anyone is wondering, I got all my training by buying a Honda Type R with a bigger list of faults than I've ever seen on this forum, for any typre of MINI Rejection: It's simple, either they will give up, or you will. It really is that simple.......... Disclaimer: Written with the aid of a few pints of Theakstons Old Peculiar "He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant, and she was the East River."

Nov 27th, 2007, 06:21 AM	#14 (permalink)
KenL MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2002 Location: Edinburgh Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 5,210 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by medilloni (original) Disclaimer: Written with the aid of a few pints of Theakstons Old Peculiar ...and you are still making perfect sense Red/Black R56 Cooper

Nov 27th, 2007, 07:52 AM	#15 (permalink)
medilloni The Stig's Dad Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North West UK Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 161 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by KenL (original) ...and you are still making perfect sense Thanks, Ken. But boy, do I feel rough now I think I'll be wearing all day! @ Louj_MCS - as young as 7 weeks, I'd be tempted to list all the rattles (recorded on DVD if poss), make an appointment for a loan car whilst they fix it and on picking the car up, give them a letter stating that this is the last opportunity for them to permanently cure the faults otherwise you will consider exercising your rights under the Sale Of Goods Act - just to make them aware of your mindset. (That is of course, if you feel they've had enough attempts). Good luck........ "He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant, and she was the East River."

Nov 28th, 2007, 08:51 PM	#16 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	Well, today I rung customer services to enquire about the faults, and whether they had been admitted as common faults or anything yet. I explained the situation, and that I wanted to reject the car - the girl was extremely helpful and offered to make contact with the sales manager at castle. After finishing the conversation, I wondered if this was wise as the sales manager would be able to ring me knowing what I had to say and being well prepared. The sales manager rung me @ 4pm, and took all the details of the situation - he was completely civil but made it fairly clear that they didn't want to accept the rejection, and I did exactly the same - explaining politely that I would not be happy with anything else. He rung me back at about 5pm, explaining he had passed the problem on to the GM of Castle Group who would be contacting BMW UK to discuss the matter. Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive?

Nov 28th, 2007, 10:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
KenL MINI2 Master Join Date: May 2002 Location: Edinburgh Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 5,210 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original) Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive? The £2.5k extra may be sweet news to the salesman but I would not use this as a bargaining tool. If they tell you verbally that they are not accepting the rejection, do not accept. Write everything in a letter telling them how the goods they have supplied have contravened the Supply of Goods act etc. Do a search on the net to quote the correct wording etc. Tell them you have lost faith in the vehicle, have been greatly inconvienced in time and expense etc... Red/Black R56 Cooper

Nov 29th, 2007, 08:01 AM	#18 (permalink)
medilloni The Stig's Dad Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: North West UK Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 161 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by danb (original) Well, today I rung customer services to enquire about the faults, and whether they had been admitted as common faults or anything yet. I explained the situation, and that I wanted to reject the car - the girl was extremely helpful and offered to make contact with the sales manager at castle. After finishing the conversation, I wondered if this was wise as the sales manager would be able to ring me knowing what I had to say and being well prepared. The sales manager rung me @ 4pm, and took all the details of the situation - he was completely civil but made it fairly clear that they didn't want to accept the rejection, and I did exactly the same - explaining politely that I would not be happy with anything else. He rung me back at about 5pm, explaining he had passed the problem on to the GM of Castle Group who would be contacting BMW UK to discuss the matter. Hopefully I will hear some good news from the GM tomorrow, but I'm not expecting it to be that easy. I may explain that if I do get a replacement, I will probobally spend another £2.5k on extras. Surely this would be an incentive? I might have missed some part of the thread Dan, but have you submitted this in writing? It's extremely important that you do. As soon as they receive your written clarifacation on the reasons why you are rejecting the car they are obligated to reply in writing - if not, they look extremely weak in court, and it's this that's good to keep in mind. Yes, you might not want the hassle of this, but the garage need to be absolutely convinced this is second nature to you and you won't hesitate to hand it to your solicitor. Over the course of (what always feels like a lengthy...) a rejection, it helps to ask them questions that YOU know the answer to. Questions like, "I would like to know what you propose to do to stay within the boundaries of the Sale of Goods Act 1997 "(and the revision, not sure when, I'm at work). Remember to document the conversation in your diary - time, date, who, where, what was said, the reason for the garage visit, anyone else in earshot/part of the conversation etc etc. This type of record keeping scares the hell out of them when they realise how accurate you've been - because they won't have! Once you get in the habit of handing them written (NOT emails, they 'lose' them) intention of the process you'd like to follow, each time asking for a reply in writing within (for eg.) ten days, then if it did go to court they would look extremely weak for not answering - remember, most cases like this are thrown out (or lost) because one party doesn't follow a guide/plan that provides a clear view of events over time - don't let it be you! Carrot dangling of extra spending from you? NO! You might need to get slightly (politely) heavy, maybe along the lines of asking for them to replace the faulty goods (don't refer to it as a 'car' in these conversations, it's 'goods fit for the purpose') AND providing some kind of recompence. The reason I say this is because they might try and knock you down in value, mileage etc. They have no right to, but they can still try it on - and so you might want to 'start high and negotiate'. Steam in where others fear to steam "He fell for her like his heart was a mob informant, and she was the East River."

Nov 29th, 2007, 12:29 PM	#19 (permalink)
danb MINI2 Master My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: York / Manchester Local Time: 07:23 PM Posts: 865 Offline	I have not contacted them in writing as yet, because I wanted to wait to hear back from David Holmes this Friday. I wasn't expecting the sales manager to ring me before Friday, nevermind pass it to the GM. As I understand it, before six months have passed the cannot try to penalise me for the miles on the car, or can they? The reason I ask is that this was already mentioned by the sales manager, which I argued. I plan on writing a letter at some point today, and sending it recorded delivery tomorrow as soon as I hear confirmation from David Holmes that they agree the fault is back. The reason I am trying to hold back too much on quoting the sales of goods act is that Castle have not actually had the oppurtunity to repair the car themselves, only David Holmes. I am sure if they really want to be awkard that they will use this.