[mini5lover]

Hi all, am just wondering if anyone has yet swapped their beloved supercharged s works for a new turbo s works yet?
My husband will not swap Swiper after test driving the new works as he says Swiper is faster (ie no turbo lag).
I do like the new mini but am thinking that most of you works owners will wait for the factory fit before considering a change, or am I wrong?

[FergusM]

turbo lag ? With the new one having a tiny turbo there is basically no lag, if anything it runs out of puff at top end, certainly not lacking at the bottom end.

[msh441]

Quote: Originally Posted by mini5lover (original)

Hi all, am just wondering if anyone has yet swapped their beloved supercharged s works for a new turbo s works yet?
My husband will not swap Swiper after test driving the new works as he says Swiper is faster (ie no turbo lag).
I do like the new mini but am thinking that most of you works owners will wait for the factory fit before considering a change, or am I wrong?

Maybe a question better served up in the 1st gen JCW section.

I would question you're husband's definition of "turbo lag", though. There are a number of dynos posted now that will pretty much show it's non-existant on the S, let alone the JCW.

As far as "throttle lag"... I have heard that as a complaint from one GP owner. My experience however, is that the throttle lag on the my buddies '04 JCW is waaaaayyyyyy more evident than on my '07 JCW (with the sport button "on", of course).

I will say that I believe Swiper to be a nicer car in many ways... but a FASTER car? Doubtful. Sorry. Not buying it.

[mini5lover]

Quote: Originally Posted by msh441 (original)

Maybe a question better served up in the 1st gen JCW section.

I would question you're husband's definition of "turbo lag", though. There are a number of dynos posted now that will pretty much show it's non-existant on the S, let alone the JCW.

As far as "throttle lag"... I have heard that as a complaint from one GP owner. My experience however, is that the throttle lag on the my buddies '04 JCW is waaaaayyyyyy more evident than on my '07 JCW (with the sport button "on", of course).

I will say that I believe Swiper to be a nicer car in many ways... but a FASTER car? Doubtful. Sorry. Not buying it.

Hi, thanks for your comments.
My husband and I have both driven the new s works and both noticed the lag on acceleration.
With the supercharger there is no lag at all, the response is instant. It may be slight but it is there and there are several works owners I know that admit this. The dealer also admitted it.
Channel 5 car test programme also admitted it. We are not biased and usually change our car every two years so wanted to try the new works.
Swiper is definitely faster through the gears - no question.

[msh441]

Quote: Originally Posted by mini5lover (original)

It may be slight but it is there and there are several works owners I know that admit this. The dealer also admitted it.
Channel 5 car test programme also admitted it.

I neither know your friends, your dealer or watch Channel 5 (don't have an antennae big enough ). I've driven both on the road, autocross course and track. You asked people's opinions and I simply relayed my experience with both cars. That's all.

I've have seen MINI's own (very conservative) figures comparing the two:

R56 JCW/R53 JCW
0-60 mph: 6.5s/6.5s
50 – 75mph (4th gear): 5.3s/6.4s
50 – 75mph (5th gear): 6.6s/6.7s
50 – 75mph (6th gear): 7.6s/8.9s

I've also read EVO, Automobile, Car and several other publications reviewing the JCW. The comments of late usually go somthing like this: "The fastest MINI we've ever driven". That includes the GP, by the way.

Turbo lag? Throttle lag? You can work through the gears faster? Fine. Sounds like you had made your decision before posting . Granted, it's not like you can go wrong with either one. Don't fool yourself, though. Despite whatever your butt-dyno is feeling, the '07 JCW is a faster car in every way. It's the nature of automotive development. Another year or so, and the Factory JCW will overshadow everything else. In 2012, the 3rd gen S will make the 2nd gen Factory JCW look sedate. Like it or not, It's just the way it goes.

[mini5lover]

I appreciate what you are saying, cars always improve with the new models, but do not agree they do not always improve.
I love the new car the new changes are good in the most part, but nothing you say will convince me that there is no lag - there is.
However, no more to be said on that we will wait for August next year when the first factory fits roll off at Oxford. I am sure we will see an improvement to the current works then.
If you read mini2 regularly you will know that the older works owners are waiting for something better, they have tried the new works and cannot see enough of an improvement to swap cars now.
I like to swap before things get too old, but am not swapping for something that is not better and lots of others are not either.
End of subject, Merry Christmas!

[devaisl]

Mmm interesting that no other 1 Gen JCW owners have commented here ....

[Ant FR]

to be honest its all about personal taste, after coming froma background of turbo'd VW's i would prefer to stick with a supercharger. I prefer the linear power delivery of the supercharger. And it would take a very very good gen 2 MCS to tear me away from my soon to be GTT260 phase 1

[Rigsey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

to be honest its all about personal taste, after coming froma background of turbo'd VW's i would prefer to stick with a supercharger. I prefer the linear power delivery of the supercharger. And it would take a very very good gen 2 MCS to tear me away from my soon to be GTT260 phase 1

Ant FR: I'd be interested in meeting up once you have this done as it maybe my next step; when are you booked in?

[Ant FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rigsey (original)

Ant FR: I'd be interested in meeting up once you have this done as it maybe my next step; when are you booked in?

booked in for 22nd, really looking forward to it now, this is the LAST step. Just adding finishing touches this weekend to some cosmetic stuff, ie black spotlights and spraying uop my R56 brakes before i fit them, surprised i have never seen your car about is you live just down the road

[Rigsey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

booked in for 22nd, really looking forward to it now, this is the LAST step. Just adding finishing touches this weekend to some cosmetic stuff, ie black spotlights and spraying uop my R56 brakes before i fit them, surprised i have never seen your car about is you live just down the road

Jan 22nd? How long does Roland need it for?

I've not see you around either which is weird.

Let me know your thoughts once complete

[mini5lover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

to be honest its all about personal taste, after coming froma background of turbo'd VW's i would prefer to stick with a supercharger. I prefer the linear power delivery of the supercharger. And it would take a very very good gen 2 MCS to tear me away from my soon to be GTT260 phase 1

At last! Someone is backing my corner!!

I dont know what it is about the turbo charger but when you quickly put your foot down you seem to have to wait for it to wake up!
The beauty of Swiper is that she is there straight away in every gear - much better to drive. I know everyone will shout me down but I did go to buy one until I drove one.
There is no better mini out there - yet.

[Roadrunner_1]

I agree with Mini5lover. I test drove the R56 JCW and it was fast no doubt, however the power curve on a turbo is very different and can actually make cars feel faster than they are. My Hartge 210 with GTT Intercooler and Borla exhaust although not a JCW is faster than the current R56 JCW...but I agree the factory version will be faster I am sure.

Regarding nature of automotive development...there are cars designed and made in the 1960's that are still some of the fastest road cars to date, AC Cobra, Mustang GT500. More recently the Vauxhall Lotus Carlton. We have a Porsche 911 993 Turbo S from 1995 and have never seen a road car keep up, this is including the current crop of Ferrari's, Lambo's and Aston Martin's.

[mini5lover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Roadrunner_1 (original)

I agree with Mini5lover. I test drove the R56 JCW and it was fast no doubt, however the power curve on a turbo is very different and can actually make cars feel faster than they are. My Hartge 210 with GTT Intercooler and Borla exhaust although not a JCW is faster than the current R56 JCW...but I agree the factory version will be faster I am sure.

Regarding nature of automotive development...there are cars designed and made in the 1960's that are still some of the fastest road cars to date, AC Cobra, Mustang GT500. More recently the Vauxhall Lotus Carlton. We have a Porsche 911 993 Turbo S from 1995 and have never seen a road car keep up, this is including the current crop of Ferrari's, Lambo's and Aston Martin's.

I fully agree with you, why do people think I am just biased its not true! I was prepared to buy one so I cannot be biased but its just not as fast, some of the new owners think it must be as its newer but its not. Its quite scary actually when you put your foot down to feel it "die" a little before the boost, I am used to Swipers instant response which is brilliant and I am not prepared to change until something better or even as good comes along.

[The Peanut]

We are with you. We have a Cooper S Checkmate works with Works brakes and suspension and there is nothing we would change it for. We love our Supercharger and wouldn't want to lose it. Now if the factory fitted Works had a supercharger... well that might be interesting, but I don't think it will have, so we will probably keep our S for a long while yet.

[kevkbuk]

The R56 doesn't have turbo lag, sure there are differences between a super and turbo charged power delivery but there really is no turbo lag. Given my R56 has traction and the traction control is off its always ready to respond, before and after fitting the Works kit.

I've driven the 200bhp version of the old Works Mini on a few occasions and wanted to buy one a year or so ago. Coming from a history of turbo and naturally aspirated cars I found the super charged Mini really needed reving to get a meaningful response. At high revs turbo lag is not an issue as the turbo will be spinning away nicely. At low revs I found my previous car, Clio 172, responded far better than the super charged Works, and the Works left me wanting.

So this lead me to look at the R56, I purchased an S and was really impressed, it performed better than the 172 in every respect (maybe loosing something in the handling, but only fractions) then later purchased the Works kit only really to improve the sound and character of the car. Its funny though I was not that impressed with the Works kit after taking a demo drive. The car I drove had low mileage and didn't show the kit off all that well. I decided to purchase it anyway regarding it more of a sound kit than tuning kit and was pleased with the result. It seems to take time to develop its full potential.

For the record my experience is that the R56 is faster than the previous model, both Works and non Works, though this aspect isn't that important to me. The R56 is certainly more refined so I can understand how people may think otherwise, some seem more prone to thinking a cars fast if it makes more noise and has more stiffer suspension etc.

You've already made your mind up about the R56 so I'd start looking elsewhere for your next car if you want to change. The factory Works version will likely only have another 20bhp and the character of the power delivery is likely to be the same.

PS If you want to know what turbo lag really is (and torque steer too!) go test drive an Astra VXR.

[msh441]

Quote: Originally Posted by mini5lover (original)

...I am not prepared to change until something better or even as good comes along.

So again, you had already formed your opinion and it appears that you were just looking for people to agree with you?

Quote: Originally Posted by Roadrunner_1 (original)

Regarding nature of automotive development...there are cars designed and made in the 1960's that are still some of the fastest road cars to date, AC Cobra, Mustang GT500. More recently the Vauxhall Lotus Carlton. We have a Porsche 911 993 Turbo S from 1995 and have never seen a road car keep up, this is including the current crop of Ferrari's, Lambo's and Aston Martin's.

AC Cobras? GT500? Seen any of Carol Shelby's new offerings? That's like arguing the GT40 is faster than the new Ford GT. Any one of them will best either of those cars. Go for the Rousch Rasing Mustang with the independant rear and it'll go faster around a track than the new Shelby's or the supercharged Saleens. There's a reason those cars race in a "vintage" series.

993 Turbo? You're either not running into the right cars, or not finding an equivalent driver. If it's the latter... well, good-on-ya! In reality there are a handfull of models under the same marquis made since the 993 Turbo that are faster around the track (GT3, RS, RSR).

Quote: Originally Posted by kevkbuk (original)

...some seem more prone to thinking a cars fast if it makes more noise and has more stiffer suspension etc.
.

Exactly. People confuse a more visceral ride with a faster car. The pitfalls of the butt-dyno. Again, the R53 (JCW or otherwise) has some things going for it that the R56 can't touch. Looks, steering feel, intoxicating SC whine. But when it comes to what moves around a track the best? It's the R56. Track times prove it. Autocross results prove it. Drag & roll-on times prove it. But go ahead and tell yourself otherwise. Whetever makes you happy while motoring along!

[mini5lover]

As you can see from the posts here several people do agree with me that the supercharger is better than the turbocharger.

The new minis are lovely and you are bound not to admit that there is a lag there but there is, sorry.

When they sort that I might think about changing, but otherwise no chance.

[scone]

Quote: Originally Posted by mini5lover (original)

As you can see from the posts here several people do agree with me that the supercharger is better than the turbocharger.

The new minis are lovely and you are bound not to admit that there is a lag there but there is, sorry.

When they sort that I might think about changing, but otherwise no chance.

The old minis are lovely and you are bound not to admit they are slower, but they are, sorry.

[msh441]

Quote: Originally Posted by mini5lover (original)

As you can see from the posts here several people do agree with me that the supercharger is better than the turbocharger.

Yes. Clearly that was your true goal. Congradulations.