[herbie hind]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo (original)

I think you may have answered your own question; if your highest priority is outright power to compete against others, then you are probably looking at the wrong car. Personally, I'd look at the maximum kw/bhp as only one very small part of the buying equation.

It's probably pretty frustrating for engine designers trying to design an engine to meet all the emmission and noise regs and give it really nice power characteristcs when they know that all many customers may be looking for is maximum kw/bhp. It's probably a lot better to completely ignore the kw/bhp figure and drive the cars you fancy and see which you prefer driving.

Tigger.

what's left then? roomy ? no handling yes but many have that. looks certainly used to be the case . quality .... not even close so i'd say power should've been priority 1 but we can't mess up the market for the other bmw models now can we ?

[herbie hind]

Quote: Originally Posted by thrud (original)

I guess I was also expecting a bit more of a bhp hike from the old model, at least 180bhp. However, there's more to performance than pure bhp figures. And the new engines sound like a big improvement overall technically.

Paul

wait for all the ecu failures and water pumps and oil pumps not coming on and all else .

[Olly.]

Quote: Originally Posted by herbie hind (original)

what's left then? roomy ? no handling yes but many have that. looks certainly used to be the case . quality .... not even close so i'd say power should've been priority 1 but we can't mess up the market for the other bmw models now can we ?

What BMW models is the MINI competing with in terms of power?

[Funkymini]

Hello All, I think this new engine can be upgraded so easily to over torque 350 and bhp to 240 , but be sure to order the LSD or Super differential !! - ( but after all it still can't compare with my old BMW Z3 M coupé )

[wow]

The M Coupe and MINI are worlds apart.

I used to think it was a silly comparison until my MINI dealership informed me that in 2003 she had 4 M coupes traded in for MINIs

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ollie Tebbutt (original)

Id like to be in a race around a track in a MCS 08 JCW and a Golf R32. The R32 has about 250 bhp and 4wd, but the Mini is a fair bit lighter, and not that it matters whilst racing, but the Mini is a damnsite better looking.

I would say the Golf and current JCW put the same power down on the road due to the extra drive train losses a 4WD incurs. Although the Golf can make better use of this power with more grip over the JCW's FWD arrangement. However 4WD doesn't appear to make an awful lot of difference around a tarmac track so I would say that the current models would be evenly matched.

However the R34 (260BHP) will be out around the same time as the JCW if it's out in '08

[CooperStu]

I had seen somewhere that the New MCS was lighter than the current MCS so would be quicker sure that was on the video on the autocar website plus the new car is turbo charged not supercharged which usually means ECU upgrades generate more BHP just expect a little Turbo Lag plus you can have a waste gate on the Turbo
Whatever the choice the MINI is better i love it and the wife has a cooper and i have my focus (it has 5 doors and a boot to put dirty things in that I will not allow in the MINI) so at least i have a decent run over the weekends in the MINI.

[Paul]

Well, you can see from the specs stuck at the top of the forums for each model (and generation) the weights and power etc. The in gear times for the new S are much better, almost as good (and in some cases better than) the current Works.

[swamos]

Interestingly, when top gear reviewed the GTI they also compared it to a number of other hot hatches. One of those was the cooper S works, and the GTI was faster than the works around their test track

[CooperStu]

Look for real world test, my mate had a Focus RS, eats Porsches on tracks eats hedges on the roads that trick diff loves use the WHOLE road not just your lane.

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by swamos (original)

Interestingly, when top gear reviewed the GTI they also compared it to a number of other hot hatches. One of those was the cooper S works, and the GTI was faster than the works around their test track

That was the MK V though. The MK IV was pants!

[pcoyne]

Dont look at the power you need to look at the power to weight ratio, ie the megane 225 has a power to weight ratio of 156 bhp per ton, the mini cooper s has a power to weight ratio 154 bhp per ton and the works has a power to weight ration of 190 bhp per ton so it will destroy the megane. The golf and focus are about the same they are too heavy so need lots more power.

The new mini cooper s has a powere to weight ratio of 158 bhp per ton

its not all just the power to look at!

[Jon Chalk]

The other thing to look at is bhp/litre.

The Megane (et al) are all running 2 litre motors - the MINI is only a 1.6.

A Works knocking out 200bhp+ from 1.6 litres is far more impressive (IMHO) than from a 2 litre.

If you want your MINI to be the size & shape of a Megane/Focus/Golf - then that's what you'll need to fit a 2 litre four-cyl under the bonnet.

Why complain about a 1.6 engine putting out far more than any other equivalently-sized engine?

[wow]

power to weight ratio is the key fact!

[Wooly]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooperama (original)

The other thing to look at is bhp/litre.

The Megane (et al) are all running 2 litre motors - the MINI is only a 1.6.

A Works knocking out 200bhp+ from 1.6 litres is far more impressive (IMHO) than from a 2 litre.

If you want your MINI to be the size & shape of a Megane/Focus/Golf - then that's what you'll need to fit a 2 litre four-cyl under the bonnet.

Why complain about a 1.6 engine putting out far more than any other equivalently-sized engine?

The works is a modified version of the standard form of engine, the other 2 ltr isnt so id imagine that has room for more potential power whereas the 1.6 is already nearing its limit.
the design is also something to consider, the bbr mini which is nearly 300bhp doesnt handle as well as the lower ones around 230 mark so ive heard.
thats partly one of the reasons im skeptical of the modifying thing, if a car could have been that good in the first place, the manufacture would make it like that.
for example, if you fit lowering springs onto a car that would completely mess up the dynamics of the whole car because youve got hard springs on a soft compressed damper.

speed isnt everything as far as im concerned, afterall were not supposed to go past 70! if you want a fast car with a big engine, by a big car with a big engine and big power.

mini have to make economical sense when manufacturing products which means creating products for the masses, not the small niche of hardcore mini enthusiasts.
not to mention the fact they have to target a certain group which may entail having to meet a certain insurance group or certain tax group.

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by Wooly (original)

The works is a modified version of the standard form of engine, the other 2 ltr isnt so id imagine that has room for more potential power whereas the 1.6 is already nearing its limit.
the design is also something to consider, the bbr mini which is nearly 300bhp doesnt handle as well as the lower ones around 230 mark so ive heard.
thats partly one of the reasons im skeptical of the modifying thing, if a car could have been that good in the first place, the manufacture would make it like that.
for example, if you fit lowering springs onto a car that would completely mess up the dynamics of the whole car because youve got hard springs on a soft compressed damper.

speed isnt everything as far as im concerned, afterall were not supposed to go past 70! if you want a fast car with a big engine, by a big car with a big engine and big power.

mini have to make economical sense when manufacturing products which means creating products for the masses, not the small niche of hardcore mini enthusiasts.
not to mention the fact they have to target a certain group which may entail having to meet a certain insurance group or certain tax group.

I'm interested, how does tuning an engine affect the handling unless more weight is added with a turbo or something?

The BBR may or may not handle as well as the standard car but that has nothing to do with it's power output.

Also this sentence: if a car could have been that good in the first place, the manufacture would make it like that.

Is answered by this one: mini have to make economical sense when manufacturing products which means creating products for the masses, not the small niche of hardcore mini enthusiasts.
not to mention the fact they have to target a certain group which may entail having to meet a certain insurance group or certain tax group

[Wooly]

Quote: Originally Posted by Root Ginger (original)

I'm interested, how does tuning an engine affect the handling unless more weight is added with a turbo or something?

The BBR may or may not handle as well as the standard car but that has nothing to do with it's power output.

I think it does have something to do with the power because, how the hell is it transferring such high power to a front wheel drive car. there has to be a certain limit to which it can move the power to the wheels. adding and lowering weight im sure would affect it slightly because it would lower or raise the nose cone changing the center of gravity.

i dont have a lot of knowledge about this stuff but theoretically i think i make sense, theere are more factors than simply getting the most out of the engine, if there wasnt id be able to build me own motor .

its just so much people are caught up in the marketing ploys of tuning companies they believe anything.
unless your in an extremely high powered car induction kits are pointless, there have been articles on how they actually increase pressure and knock of the top end performance. the dyno results ive seen with only induction kits on have shown lower bhp results than with them off. they add some lower down torque but the marketing that they add 8 -10bhp is actually bs.
there was a topic in the engine section where i questioned this and some guy from NAM backed me up with the dyno results.

the biggest con of all i think are bodykits with the huge gaping grilles, judging by the look of most designs im sure the air just goes straight through the engine. i bet 99% havent even been ergonomically tested through air tunnels and such.
most modifying stuff imo is more about show, and bragging rights.

[ChrisBuer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Root Ginger (original)

I would say the Golf and current JCW put the same power down on the road due to the extra drive train losses a 4WD incurs. Although the Golf can make better use of this power with more grip over the JCW's FWD arrangement. However 4WD doesn't appear to make an awful lot of difference around a tarmac track so I would say that the current models would be evenly matched.

However the R34 (260BHP) will be out around the same time as the JCW if it's out in '08

My R32 when standard felt about the same as my JCW up to about 60mph. In gear however the Golf feels stronger and high end it' s a lot quicker. However the Mini was better in the bends but then again it was lowered and had a strut brace and my Golf is still standard suspension wise.

Both great fun cars though

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by Wooly (original)

I think it does have something to do with the power because, how the hell is it transferring such high power to a front wheel drive car. there has to be a certain limit to which it can move the power to the wheels.

OK I can see where you're coming from but engine mods do not affect handling unless driven incorrectly. Travel along a road at 60 in a 170BHP S and go around a bend. That car will handle identically to the same Cooper S with 300 BHP through that corner. Now lets take the same bend in standard Cooper S. After the apex you floor the throttle and accelerate out. Lovely. Now you have the same car but 300 ponies under the bonnet. After the apex you floor the throttle, woah, understeer, tree, crash!

Now was that because the car handled worse? No, because it was driven incorrectly.

Had the driver of the 300BHP car put the throttle down part way to match the power he was putting in on the standard car it would have gone round identically. Once the corner straightened more, more of the throttle could be applied.

This is the problem and why some people wrongly believe that these high power cars handle less well. They handle the same but require care when driving. Go around slamming your foot to the floor and driving like you stole it will end in a mess and the driver coming away disappointed.

[Makar]

Quote: Originally Posted by Root Ginger (original)

Just the same really but as I know naff all about Seats I thought I'd choose something I do know a little about

Is it Seat or MINI-fans forum???