[Wooly]

Quote: Originally Posted by Root Ginger (original)

OK I can see where you're coming from but engine mods do not affect handling unless driven incorrectly. Travel along a road at 60 in a 170BHP S and go around a bend. That car will handle identically to the same Cooper S with 300 BHP through that corner. Now lets take the same bend in standard Cooper S. After the apex you floor the throttle and accelerate out. Lovely. Now you have the same car but 300 ponies under the bonnet. After the apex you floor the throttle, woah, understeer, tree, crash!

Now was that because the car handled worse? No, because it was driven incorrectly.

Had the driver of the 300BHP car put the throttle down part way to match the power he was putting in on the standard car it would have gone round identically. Once the corner straightened more, more of the throttle could be applied.

This is the problem and why some people wrongly believe that these high power cars handle less well. They handle the same but require care when driving. Go around slamming your foot to the floor and driving like you stole it will end in a mess and the driver coming away disappointed.

Thats a very good point and i agree with it from a modifyers point of view, but not a manufacturers point of view; mainly because it would devalue the point of engineering which is to make the car dynamically stable and smooth in any situation, not entirely dependant on driver skill.

an example i can think of is astra vxr, which is notorious for torque steering, anyone with half a brain could have told them a front wheel drive with all that power wouldnt work properly unless its engineered exceptionally.....and lets face it, vauxhall

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by Wooly (original)

Thats a very good point and i agree with it from a modifyers point of view, but not a manufacturers point of view; mainly because it would devalue the point of engineering which is to make the car dynamically stable and smooth in any situation, not entirely dependant on driver skill.

The car is perfectly dynamically stable with 300BHP if driven correctly.

Try driving pretty much any Ferrari and stamping on the throttle without thinking first. You're going to end up in a pretty expensive mess but to say it is not dynamically smooth or stable is laughable.

The way you're talking you should be able to do anything and the car will still stick to the road. That just wont ever happen. The laws of physics must always be obeyed.

To inexperienced drivers going from a Works S for example to a 300BHP S, the car will seem a real hand full. Nothing to do with the car though but because they have not adjusted their responses to the gentler throttle responses needed.

Now that could prove your point until you consider that a One driver jumping in the S Works for the first time will experience the exact same thing. Does this make the S Works dynamically unstable too?

[Wooly]

Quote:

The car is perfectly dynamically stable with 300BHP if driven correctly.

I’m sure it is dynamically stable, the minis chassis is pretty versatile because of the way its designed. But from various sources that do say it handles not as well as the standard (or works), what do you think causes it to handle differently? Journalists wouldn’t be as stupid as to keep their foot down and expect it to go the same.

Cars with mad understeer and oversteer can be controlled to still go around corners by not putting their foot all the way down, so at the same time using your example of throttle control, why Is there a need to go on about it lol. Provided you go around the right corner in the right gear you should be able to go around it with your foot stuck to the floor if its engineered properly.

Quote:

Try driving pretty much any Ferrari and stamping on the throttle without thinking first. You're going to end up in a pretty expensive mess but to say it is not dynamically smooth or stable is laughable.

That would be down to driving ability and i very much doubt the engine would have been modified, the chassis and aerodynamics would be what Ferrari wanted and tested for.

Quote:

To inexperienced drivers going from a Works S for example to a 300BHP S, the car will seem a real hand full. Nothing to do with the car though but because they have not adjusted their responses to the gentler throttle responses needed.

Now that could prove your point until you consider that a One driver jumping in the S Works for the first time will experience the exact same thing. Does this make the S Works dynamically unstable too?

But that is a different kettle of fish, what I was talking about was ‘aftermarket’ mods or mass market ones. There are no doubt some very good tuners like john cooper, or ruf even. But then there are also the one who make one bolt on piece to add more power, but they also adapt it to fit a number of cars. I bet john cooper go through much more thorough testing than most, I guess they do not have to do much to the chassis though because it is pretty stiff and versatile all through the range.
heres an interesting question: at what stage would the mini become unstable 400bhp?1? there has to be a limit at which it can handle.

Throttle response has nothing to do with what we are talking about, higher power cars will naturally be more sensitive.
I know someone from college who had put a ford racing puma lump into a basic of basic mark 4 fiesta, and that rolled around like an American trying to get up in the morning. But if he were to put stiffer suspension on to accommodate it, it would be better but im certain it would stress the main chassis frame which wasn’t designed for it.
Its hard putting across what I think but that is the closest I think im going to get at achieving what I mean lol.
To me personally it sounds as if you do not give people like bmw or mini enough credit, because engineering is a complicated art and there are more things than just driving ability and adding more power which affect the way it moves.
Most things probably wouldn’t even be noticeable unless put under scientific testing, using the stress of the chassis as a point, how do we know that tests do not show that the chassis is being fractured/stressed to stupid levels because they used a different metal which wasn’t intended for that type of use?

Quote:

The way you're talking you should be able to do anything and the car will still stick to the road. That just wont ever happen. The laws of physics must always be obeyed.

But the laws of physics can be manipulated and used to an advantage, you’ve only got to look at formula 1. Im not saying you can drive around with your foot down through bends and the like but, engineering has allowed us to continuously up the limit at which we can go around.

When I always rave on about the veyron to mates, they always say that 1000bhp is nothing and that japs are churning out 1200bhp cars doing just as good 0-60 times. Now ive seen 1000+ bhp dragsters doing 0-60 and they spin stupidly at the start, but they do roughly the same time as the veyron. When the veyron does this it can do it without the wheels spinning because of the way it uses physics to control it. I would bet good money that the Japanese ‘mod’ versions cant do it the same, even just by judging the stupidly garish bodykits which I bet haven’t been wind tunneled

To me that is why i would call the veyron an engineering masterpiece. are you saying the weight of the engine, the placement of the engine, the stiffness of the chassis, the aerodynamics of the bodyshell, etc do not contribute to the way a car drives.

Here is the video of a veyron 0-60: http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...54919&q=veyron

Quote:

The BBR may or may not handle as well as the standard car but that has nothing to do with it's power output.

Well what would affect its handling then? You talk like you can add as much power as you like to any motor and as long as its got 4 wheels it should go.

Im not dissing all tuners because a lot do put the effort in for design and testing.

[wow]

Back to the MAIN topic ---> Will the MINI Cooper S perform against its peers?

[Paul]

I imagine so, but what do you consider it's "peers"?

[Root Ginger]

Answers in Bold.

Quote: Originally Posted by Wooly (original)

I’m sure it is dynamically stable, the minis chassis is pretty versatile because of the way its designed. But from various sources that do say it handles not as well as the standard (or works), what do you think causes it to handle differently? Journalists wouldn’t be as stupid as to keep their foot down and expect it to go the same.

As I said in the beginning it has nothing to do with the cars power. The handling issues will be down to the suspension upgrades that are on the BBR

Cars with mad understeer and oversteer can be controlled to still go around corners by not putting their foot all the way down, so at the same time using your example of throttle control, why Is there a need to go on about it lol. Provided you go around the right corner in the right gear you should be able to go around it with your foot stuck to the floor if its engineered properly.

The point I was making here again was that the power has little to do with handling.

That would be down to driving ability and i very much doubt the engine would have been modified, the chassis and aerodynamics would be what Ferrari wanted and tested for.



But that is a different kettle of fish, what I was talking about was ‘aftermarket’ mods or mass market ones. There are no doubt some very good tuners like john cooper, or ruf even. But then there are also the one who make one bolt on piece to add more power, but they also adapt it to fit a number of cars. I bet john cooper go through much more thorough testing than most, I guess they do not have to do much to the chassis though because it is pretty stiff and versatile all through the range.
heres an interesting question: at what stage would the mini become unstable 400bhp?1? there has to be a limit at which it can handle.

True, once the chassis start being stressed by the power.

Throttle response has nothing to do with what we are talking about, higher power cars will naturally be more sensitive.

That's the point I'm trying to make. Those who have reviewed the car probably do not know how to drive it. A 300BHP FWD car is a far cry from a RWD performance car.

I know someone from college who had put a ford racing puma lump into a basic of basic mark 4 fiesta, and that rolled around like an American trying to get up in the morning. But if he were to put stiffer suspension on to accommodate it, it would be better but im certain it would stress the main chassis frame which wasn’t designed for it.
Its hard putting across what I think but that is the closest I think im going to get at achieving what I mean lol.

That would be because of a massive increase in weight on the front the BBR conversion AFAIK does not significantly raise the front end weight.

To me personally it sounds as if you do not give people like bmw or mini enough credit, because engineering is a complicated art and there are more things than just driving ability and adding more power which affect the way it moves.

I think I do, otherwise I wouldn't have owned MINI's for 5 years. First a Cooper Works and now a 230BHP Hartge S

Most things probably wouldn’t even be noticeable unless put under scientific testing, using the stress of the chassis as a point, how do we know that tests do not show that the chassis is being fractured/stressed to stupid levels because they used a different metal which wasn’t intended for that type of use?

Totally true. You only have to look at the Fiesta RS Turbo for this. The chassis flexes under full throttle as it was never designed for this power. However MINI USA run a 450WHP drag car without any chassis mods but we obviously cannot say how stressed the chassis gets with this power


But the laws of physics can be manipulated and used to an advantage, you’ve only got to look at formula 1. Im not saying you can drive around with your foot down through bends and the like but, engineering has allowed us to continuously up the limit at which we can go around.

When I always rave on about the veyron to mates, they always say that 1000bhp is nothing and that japs are churning out 1200bhp cars doing just as good 0-60 times. Now ive seen 1000+ bhp dragsters doing 0-60 and they spin stupidly at the start, but they do roughly the same time as the veyron. When the veyron does this it can do it without the wheels spinning because of the way it uses physics to control it. I would bet good money that the Japanese ‘mod’ versions cant do it the same, even just by judging the stupidly garish bodykits which I bet haven’t been wind tunneled

To me that is why i would call the veyron an engineering masterpiece. are you saying the weight of the engine, the placement of the engine, the stiffness of the chassis, the aerodynamics of the bodyshell, etc do not contribute to the way a car drives.

Here is the video of a veyron 0-60: Bugatti Veyron take off - Google Video

I know the Veyron is an engineering masterpiece as half the stuff on that car had never been done before on a production vehicle. They used an F1 team to help them but even they were stuck with things like gearboxes as the Veyron has more power than an F1 car and needs to last more than a couple of hours between servicing.

However all this talk of weight, placement of engine etc is irrelavent to the tuned MINI in question really. As far as I'm aware little weight is added because of the conversion and the engine is the original engine.

Well what would affect its handling then? You talk like you can add as much power as you like to any motor and as long as its got 4 wheels it should go.

No, but providing the chassis can handle it it is fine. With the MINI having such a stiff chassis it can handle a hell of a lot more power than has been put in it from the factory. I personally feel the handling issues are far more likely to be down to a) suspension setup. The BBR has different suspension to the standard car. b) that the reviewers cannot handle the power. Where will a journalist have driven a FWD car with 300BHP before? RWD very likely but not FWD.

Going from 132BHP to 230BHP I can tell you that you enter a whole new world of understeer and wheels spin you never thought possible. It takes a few days (weeks even) for you to recalibrate your driving to this extra power and that's the point I'm trying to make. I doubt that these reviewers would have had more than a few hours with the car, not enough time to get used to how to use the power and could give the impression that the car does not handle very well.

Im not dissing all tuners because a lot do put the effort in for design and testing.

[Root Ginger]

Quote: Originally Posted by wow (original)

Back to the MAIN topic ---> Will the MINI Cooper S perform against its peers?

I believe so. However as Paul points out what are it's peers? I find MINI is kind of in a league of it's own really and doesn't quite fit in any normal category.

[Jon Chalk]

Quote: Originally Posted by wow (original)

Back to the MAIN topic ---> Will the MINI Cooper S perform against its peers?

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett (original)

I imagine so, but what do you consider it's "peers"?

The point I was trying to make much earlier in this thread.

In it's size class (fiesta, corsa, etc.) - an "S" would probably outclass any opposition on everything except cost.

In it's cost class (Type R's, ST's, Megane Sport's, etc.) the cars are bigger & bigger-engined(though not necessarily better equipped).

So what should you compare it against? There are no real like-for-like competitors, which is probably one of the reasons it has done so well.

As Root Ginger pointed out...drat!

[Root Ginger]

Oops sorry for treading on your toes there Cooperama

If I had a pound for every time that's happened to me...

[Jon Chalk]

No worries

[Wooly]

Quote:

However all this talk of weight, placement of engine etc is irrelavent to the tuned MINI in question really. As far as I'm aware little weight is added because of the conversion and the engine is the original engine.

Quote:

No, but providing the chassis can handle it it is fine. With the MINI having such a stiff chassis it can handle a hell of a lot more power than has been put in it from the factory.

Yeh, ive mentioned this but the debate kinda got dragged on with the mention of Ferraris and such. The chassis probably could handle a lot more power than factory but there still has to be a maximum point at before it goes all crap if you know what i mean.

Quote:

The point I was making here again was that the power has little to do with handling.

I agree that driving ability (like going hard on the throttle etc) does play a part in handling, but I have to disagree that power has absolutely nothing to do with handling. Just a quick theoretical example, say on a round about a cooper can go around at 40mph before it starts loosing traction (regardless of throttle position), put the same 1.6 engine into a corsa and the limit may be lower because a softer set up.
Some of the stuff ive mentioned above may or may not be a big a factor as it would be on higher powered outright sports cars but I still stand by my view that power does affect handling somewhat, I think both play a part and work hand in hand together. why do some cars oversteer and understeer once pushed past the traction limit, but but then never do the opposite? (as in a car that oversteers will never understeer).
lets just agree to disagree.
I also stand by the fact that from what ive seen induction kits on standard cars like a cooper, although it may not affect dynamics it does affect engine power output by lowering it (the way I understand it, it enhances lower end torque while sacrificing top end power ).

So SOME but not all modifications are pointless, im just not a fan of most of it.

Back on topic anyway, i think the new cooper s's main competitors should be the clio 197 thing and new civic type r. they may be 2 litres but then they are naturally aspirated (?) and dont have the supercharger or turbocharger.
its not really in the same league as a corsa, whats the top of the range corsa anyway .
the cooper s might be chasing the pack in terms of engine size and possibly horsepower, but i bet itd have them round the bends

[SteveBrass]

...............as in there will always be one.

I drive a Mini not because it's the fastest but because it's a class car to drive.

Nuff said.

[Root Ginger]

Comments in bold again

Quote: Originally Posted by Wooly (original)

Yeh, ive mentioned this but the debate kinda got dragged on with the mention of Ferraris and such. The chassis probably could handle a lot more power than factory but there still has to be a maximum point at before it goes all crap if you know what i mean.

Agreed

I agree that driving ability (like going hard on the throttle etc) does play a part in handling, but I have to disagree that power has absolutely nothing to do with handling. Just a quick theoretical example, say on a round about a cooper can go around at 40mph before it starts loosing traction (regardless of throttle position), put the same 1.6 engine into a corsa and the limit may be lower because a softer set up.
Some of the stuff ive mentioned above may or may not be a big a factor as it would be on higher powered outright sports cars but I still stand by my view that power does affect handling somewhat, I think both play a part and work hand in hand together. why do some cars oversteer and understeer once pushed past the traction limit, but but then never do the opposite? (as in a car that oversteers will never understeer).
lets just agree to disagree.

OK you're talking about a different car with a different engine there which I agree with the point that the handling would be affected but because of the different engine weights. The original point though was the BBR 300 conversion. Same engine but with a turbocharger instead of a super charger. Weight difference; negligable, handling; unaffected by increase in power.

I also stand by the fact that from what ive seen induction kits on standard cars like a cooper, although it may not affect dynamics it does affect engine power output by lowering it (the way I understand it, it enhances lower end torque while sacrificing top end power ).

It's actually the other way round. Sacrifices low end torque to create more high end power. I agree most induction kits on their own do little but increase noise and often lose power. However if the car is chipped to utilise the extra air they gain power. An example of this was at a rolling road day I attended around a year after MINI's launch. Those Ones and Coopers that had exhausts and inductions kits and no chip all lost power over the standard car. Those with chips gained power

So SOME but not all modifications are pointless, im just not a fan of most of it.

Agreed, pointless if not implemented correctly.

Back on topic anyway, i think the new cooper s's main competitors should be the clio 197 thing and new civic type r. they may be 2 litres but then they are naturally aspirated (?) and dont have the supercharger or turbocharger.
its not really in the same league as a corsa, whats the top of the range corsa anyway .
the cooper s might be chasing the pack in terms of engine size and possibly horsepower, but i bet itd have them round the bends

Yeah but wait until the Works S comes out. I have a feeling it will eat the Clio and Civic for breakfast

[wow]

All your points are valid in regards to the MINI not trully having peers. But as a consumer i feel that it does peers and my reason for that is the price range the mini is in.

My question to the forum is "when topgear has it shoot out with the MINI which other cars will it be compared to?"

My guess MINI Cooper S , Golf V GTi , Ford Focus ST. This might be an interesting shoot out.

Oh well, hope i got the brains ticking.

[frd]

I think the real competition for the mini will come if the rumours about Audi and Alfa/Lancia are true. Both are said to be developing a competitor for the mini in the "premium small car class".

[PaulusMaximus]

Coming on from "frd" above posted, at least the Audi A1 will not have an aluminium chassis like the departed A2. The lower weight would have given us lot something to worry about.

As for all the above, I think that lower weight gives more benefits than more power (somebody mentioned the Elise?). I was worried about the cars we tend to get compared to (small hatches, EG RS Clio etc) but seeing as the new MINI hasn't put on any significant weight (as opposed to 130kg plus for the clio) I dont think we should see many problems. I am glad that MINI didn't feel like they had to put even more "PtWR destroying" extras into the new car. Higher speeds wouldn't have changed (power and aerodynamics matter here) but acceleration and handling will stay intact.

For a couple of you, please remember to compare the MINI to small hatches, not family ones!

Paul

[jmelrose]

So, naive noob question here:

I'm going from a 98 Honda Civic to an 07 Cooper S. What should I be expecting? What effect will it have on how I drive (not how much I ENJOY my drives!) I expect to have a lot more power at my disposal, but reading about "amatuer" drivers making errors getting used to such a different car, I have never driven anything but a Civic and am curious as to what's ahead. My test drive of an '06 was brief, and all city driving. What's ahead, what do I need to know, what should I expect?

[Paul]

Expect? Lots of fun. The MINI is easy to learn and easy to drive pretty quick. Like all cars you have to learn it inside out to really get the best of it, track days help, and in the US you're lucky that amateur auto cross seems relatively easy to take part in too, which is a great way to have fun in your MINI.

[Washy]

Quote:

Yeah but wait until the Works S comes out. I have a feeling it will eat the Clio and Civic for breakfast

I do hope so. I started a whole new waiting list at my dealer for one of these

[Olly.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Washy (original)

I do hope so. I started a whole new waiting list at my dealer for one of these

Thats an impressive achievement