[JG.26]

I'm unsure a comparison can be made between a Citroen C2 and a MINI ONE as the Citroen is a cheaper car built to a budget . Personally would steer clear of most Citroen's although they are a fine ride aka C4 and C5, but fall down by poor build and poor residuals. In recent tests the C2 came a poor second alongside the Suzuki Swift which I feel is a better comparison being in a similar price range.

Makes me smile reading comments regarding French cars as the R56 is basically a French engined car, regardless of what is said that has a BMW powerplant.

Regarding Paul M's comments on the 3 series, I imagine it's like the Audi's, a little souless but a car you come to appreciate over time and that does most things very well including the drive. This is where such cars score over a higher specced MINI which does certain things very well but poor as an overall package. Spending £25,000 on a MINI....... I think your money could be more wisely spent, afterall it's only a supermini and compromised even though it's fun drive when the fancy takes you. If I had 25k to spend on a car, it would certainly not be a MINI

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by JG.26 (original)

Makes me smile reading comments regarding French cars as the R56 is basically a French engined car, regardless of what is said that has a BMW powerplant.

I know, designed primarily by BMW engineers and built at BMW Hams Hall in the UK, almost as French as the Eiffel Tower itself.

[JG.26]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett (original)

I know, designed primarily by BMW engineers and built at BMW Hams Hall in the UK, almost as French as the Eiffel Tower itself.

Which is why wise buyers go for a Skoda over a VW, I wonder how many sales of the S will be lost to the 207 GTI...........think about it, same engine, 207 is usefully roomier, just as well made and dare I say it but becoming just as desirable and classy, quoting the journalistic world.

[sav112]

207 GTi THP 175 does look a nice car, 24 test drive noted.

Still to test drive a few cars and the New Mini, then i'll pick.

I used to love the Minis rarity, but now its embarrassing the numbers you see on a short journey. Take this morning within a six miles journey on the south side of Glasgow I lost count, seriously 30+ at one point I was parked next to 11 in the Mearns car park, and had passed another three before I got out.

Plus if your spending 25K on a Mini in my View you’ve Missed out on a load off better cars.

Fun I’d go with the Mini every time

Something special even at 25K – nah not in my book, just a dear Mini, might look fantastic and have all the whistle and bells but id rather have the new TT or Golf GTI at the price.

[adamsmini]

it french and the mini is german engginered and is english built

[wiggis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Olly. (original)

Not sure where that reviewer got there stats from but transport account for 22% of the UK's carbon emissions half of which comes from cars

Sorry for going off topic

And more to the point, the UK's carbon emissions are dwarfed by USA, China and Russian Federation - take a look at this link

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Even if UK's carbon emissions went to zero overnight, the affect on the total coming from just the top 20 emitting countries would be a reduction of about 3.7%

So, in worst case (i.e. assuming all countried not in the top 20 emit no carbon), cars in the UK amount to around 0.4% of the world CO2 emissions.

If the world wanted to get serious about carbon emissions and climate change (rather than just raise taxes by utilising a virtuous excuse) then the USA, China and the Russian Federation would be where you would focus your efforts. Just those three between them account for around 70% of the worlds carbon emissions.......

[wiggis]

Quote: Originally Posted by JG.26 (original)

Which is why wise buyers go for a Skoda over a VW, I wonder how many sales of the S will be lost to the 207 GTI...........think about it, same engine, 207 is usefully roomier, just as well made and dare I say it but becoming just as desirable and classy, quoting the journalistic world.

Dude - have you ever actually owned a Peugeot? Have you ever tried to deal with their customer service departments? Have you ever tried to trade one when it is 3 years old and been offered a paper bag and two balloons? Have you ever tried to get a strange electrical fault (like the ECU) diagnosed? Have you looked at Carsurvey.org to see what real owners say (it's not pretty - just take a look at what the 206 owners have written ...!) ?

I made the mistake of owning a 306 GTi-6 once, and it was nothing but a poorly built unreliable pile of rubbish from start to finish - at the time, I summarised it as 'designed with love, built without a damn'. It spent more time being repaired than on the road (and with serious mechanical faults, not just niggles), the dealerships didn't give a sh*t and were completely incapable of diagnosing faults - they would proudly tell me that they'd reset the fault codes, as though I should be grateful. I wanted it fixed, not lobotomised ........ but it was like arguing with a brick wall. Peugeot head office was equally useless and was not prepared to help me out in the slightest way - even when the front suspension collapsed and the cambelt failed. Just as an example of what I mean - while at the local service department waiting for a fuel leak to be fixed, I heard one poor lady being told (by the service team, and with a straight face) that the battery, which had died on her 206, was not covered by her new car warranty, despite the car only being 6 months old, as it was considered by Peugeot to be a 'consumable'. It would be shorter to list the things that didn't go wrong with my 306 than those that did, and I was glad to get shut of it 12 months after purchase.

Now I know all cars go wrong - but it's how the manufacturer and dealerships respond when they do that matters. In my experience, Peugeot doesn't give a damn once they have your money, and their cars seem to go wrong more than most, and their service departments just can't repair them, and they don't seem to care that they can't.

So if anyone wants a Peugeot, go ahead - it's a free country. But given my experience, I wouldn't touch one with someone else's bargepole. I'm sure plenty of people have owned them without problems, so obviously your mileage will vary .......

Lastly, I have a rule of thumb when choosing a car these days .... it works like this. Given how famously quick to go 'class action' people in the USA seem to be, I will not buy a car which is not also for sale in the states. Last time I looked, neither Peugeot or Citroen were for sale in the states ...

[Scrogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by wiggis (original)

Have you looked at Carsurvey.org to see what real owners say (it's not pretty - just take a look at what the 206 owners have written ...!) ?

Which just goes to disprove the saying, and that millions of people can indeed be wrong!

If you take the Fleet market out of the equation, leaving just the privately bought new cars, the top seller in the UK, for almost it's entire life-cycle, was the Peugeot 206.

If so many people were unhappy with it, why did they keep on buying it?

Quote: Originally Posted by wiggis (original)

and their cars seem to go wrong more than most

As with all cars sold in high volumes, that depends on how you look at the figures.

For example, let's compare the Ford Focus to the VW Golf.

The number 1 selling car in the UK, pretty much every month since January 1999, has been the Focus. Individually, this is one of the most reliable cars available today (even winning awards for being so in Germany of all places, where it is outsold by the Golf) but, because there are so many more of them, the small percentage that do go wrong amounts to a bigger physical number of cars than the Golf. Because of this, people automatically assume that the Focus is the less reliable of the two; whereas, in fact, per car sold, the opposite is true.

Peugeot fit into the same category. They sell more cars than most manufacturers, so obviously more will go wrong, but in terms of percentages they are no worse than any other manufacturer.

[wiggis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Scrogg (original)

If so many people were unhappy with it, why did they keep on buying it?
<snip>
Peugeot fit into the same category. They sell more cars than most manufacturers, so obviously more will go wrong, but in terms of percentages they are no worse than any other manufacturer.

Hmmm. This quote comes to mind.

"
Never underestimate the intelligence of the public, and never overestimate its knowledge

Virgil Scott
"

Now, look at the voracity of people complaining about Peugeot cars on Carsurvey.org and the volume of people stating that they would never buy another Peugeot nor would they ever recommend one to friends or family. You'll be hard pressed to find such strongly venomous write ups for the Ford Focus or the MINI, even amongst people who've had problems. Volume sales alone don't explain why many people write such horribly bad things about that company - the venom seems to go to 11 on the scale ...

In 2006, Peugeot sold 144,132 cars in the UK - 6.9% market share. BMW (including MINI) sold more than 156,000 cars in the same period, of which 44,757 were for MINI's. So if Peugeot had the same percentage reliability as BMW/MINI, then you would expect more people to be complaining bitterly about BMW/MINI than Peugeot in the UK. Except they don't, which means there must be a difference either in reliability, or in the handling of faults when they occur.

It occurs to me, referring to the quote above, that lack of knowledge is why lots of people buy Peugeots, and their intelligence prevents them from making the same mistake twice.

[big-kev]

well..we was gonna buy a citroen c2 for my son but decided not to go for it in the end. We went out this weekend and saw a W reg Ford Ka in bright yellow Its a limited millenium edition with leather and air con . My son saw it and instantly wanted it (strange lad) so i bought it!!!

£3200 for a W reg Ka (i must be mad) but its quite rare aparently!!

[Scrogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by big-kev (original)

but its quite rare aparently!!

Oddly enough, one of only 2,000 made!

[big-kev]

Quote: Originally Posted by Scrogg (original)

Oddly enough, one of only 2,000 made!

Thats not many actually . Wonder how many are on the road now???

[Scrogg]

Knowing how many of these little cars are bought by parents for their kids, or by young, inexperienced drivers generally, I would be confident in saying considerably fewer than were originally built!

Apart from the two I sold in late 1999/early 2000 I think I've only ever seen three others.

Also only even seen two Millennium Focus and one Millennium Puma.