That was what i was looking for... ;)

FWIW, the works map is not "stock".... It is OEM but not stock so you are remapped (a/f mixtures) to adjust for the mods that you have done. The only difference is that you are not running an aggressive map. Also, that was a great post and well explained.... Thank you.

I wasn't trying to be a butt, but I didn't think that a standard cooper S map would not be running rich with the mods you had so I had to ask. ;)

Lucky Dave’s post raises some interesting points …. :biggrin:

How many ECU tweakers/tuners test there changes on the road (rather than the rolling road) and check A/F ratios, ignition timings, IATs, etc?

Lucky Dave’s information seems to suggest there is quite a difference …

Surely the works map is not very much more suitable for Lucky Dave’s car than the standard map as he is running a 17% reduction pulley (not 11 or 14%), a larger IC, larger injectors, more aggressive head, manifold, etc?

Also, would an un-mapped car running a reduced pulley not run leaner than a standard car i.e. more air being pumped in?

Interesting topic especially at the moment when I'm trying to decide which way to go this year, remap or no remap ....

Lucky Dave’s post raises some interesting points …. :biggrin:

How many ECU tweakers/tuners test there changes on the road (rather than the rolling road) and check A/F ratios, ignition timings, IATs, etc?

Lucky Dave’s information seems to suggest there is quite a difference …

Surely the works map is not very much more suitable for Lucky Dave’s car than the standard map as he is running a 17% reduction pulley (not 11 or 14%), a larger IC, larger injectors, more aggressive head, manifold, etc?

Also, would an un-mapped car running a reduced pulley not run leaner than a standard car i.e. more air being pumped in?

Interesting topic especially at the moment when I'm trying to decide which way to go this year, remap or no remap ....

Maybe the tuners should jump in and answer this (hint hint Jan)... My understanding on this is that the pulley adds higher pressure so you get an incomplete burn on fuel thus it running rich. I could be wrong and I am not the expert here by any means.

I'm pretty sure that Jan has tested his skills of tuning on the track.

I'll tell you what.... Most of the converts that have driven my car compared to theirs with roughly the same mods prefer the feel of mine over theirs. The only difference?

The remap....

Maybe the tuners should jump in and answer this (hint hint Jan)... My understanding on this is that the pulley adds higher pressure so you get an incomplete burn on fuel thus it running rich. I could be wrong and I am not the expert here by any means.

I'm pretty sure that Jan has tested his skills of tuning on the track.

I'll tell you what.... Most of the converts that have driven my car compared to theirs with roughly the same mods prefer the feel of mine over theirs. The only difference?

The remap....

Thanks for the reply, would be interesting to see some road/track data from Jan or anyone else;)

I think I'm coming around to the idea of a remap; its a shame you can't try before you buy :biggrin:

I would suggest that you wait for Jan on that one. If I had the ability to have him do it or buy from MTH again, I would go with Jan. I have heard no bad comments on his tunes....

I have a Facelift 54 S and Got 214bhp with just the pulley (15%) As others have said 15% pulley and then in the future go for a bigger intercooler... GRS, GTT etc...

17% pulley and just go from there if you want more. If you want a lively car then 17% is the way to go! If you want HP on a dyno with the standard intercooler than 15% is the way to go. 17% will always win on the road with bigger torque lower in the rev range than a 15%. And if you arent much of a rev'er then 19% maybe an extreme alternative. :)

The fuel is controlled by the amount of boost pressure recorded by the T-Map sensor anyway. Bigger injectors just give you more fuel to compensate for the stock injectors reaching almost 100% duty cycle....

Maybe the tuners should jump in and answer this (hint hint Jan)... My understanding on this is that the pulley adds higher pressure so you get an incomplete burn on fuel thus it running rich. I could be wrong and I am not the expert here by any means.

I'm pretty sure that Jan has tested his skills of tuning on the track.

I'll tell you what.... Most of the converts that have driven my car compared to theirs with roughly the same mods prefer the feel of mine over theirs. The only difference?

The remap....
More advanced ignition and higher throttle response will always give a more exciting driving experience :)

That was what i was looking for... ;)

FWIW, the works map is not "stock".... It is OEM but not stock so you are remapped (a/f mixtures) to adjust for the mods that you have done. The only difference is that you are not running an aggressive map. Also, that was a great post and well explained.... Thank you.

I wasn't trying to be a butt, but I didn't think that a standard cooper S map would not be running rich with the mods you had so I had to ask. ;)


To be honest the standard 2005 S map would run slightley better as its not so rich at the top end, but I like the safety zone!

I am also curious, how "correct" do you think your map is? Please cite your source on this! :biggrin:

Also remember im running big injectors, I had to lower my fuel pressure due to my high 19psi boost and the fuel pump could not cope.

To be honest the standard 2005 S map would run slightley better as its not so rich at the top end, but I like the safety zone!

I am also curious, how "correct" do you think your map is? Please cite your source on this! :biggrin:

Also remember im running big injectors, I had to lower my fuel pressure due to my high 19psi boost and the fuel pump could not cope.
I would have thought your fuel computer would be more right for your car than any generic map. Maps are only a best fits all unless they are created for your car to match its exact spec and operation at that moment in time. Where a fuel computer will compensate......

My understanding of it so feel free to shot me down :) Obviously a custom map with the maximum advance and perfect fueling would be great :)

To be honest the standard 2005 S map would run slightley better as its not so rich at the top end, but I like the safety zone!

I am also curious, how "correct" do you think your map is? Please cite your source on this! :biggrin:

Also remember im running big injectors, I had to lower my fuel pressure due to my high 19psi boost and the fuel pump could not cope.

I don't, I have to trust the tuners on this (much like everyone around here). I have done minor things like pulling the plugs and checking them for fouling but honestly I don't have the tools to do a completed diag which is why I asked Jan to jump in. I haven't even done a dyno because I really don't care about posting numbers or racing nor feel the need to beat my chest. What I was looking for was more power (by feel) and a car that would pull in all gears and that is what I got after the map. Before the map, the car was less responsive and very jerky and now it isn't, so the map has done somehting right for me. So you have me there..... ;)

Don't get me wrong, I do think that there are several ways make a car run and many of you are doing it up there without the map and that is great. I just originally wondered why everyone was so dead set against the tune?

I think there should be a sticky with these discussion on maps etc etc just so it makes life easier for those in the future.

It should also include factual evedience rather than hearsay.

Also remember that some BMW MINI maps are very good and some pap. I had a map on my 2003 cooper that made it like a rocket ship but very smooth. When I bought my S second hand the map was aweful and power was ragged, traction map poor, and I had the yoyo and other things. Went to BMW paid £30 had the latest 2005 map put on and the car now runs really well, doesn't appear to crackle at top end despite reduced pulley/intake and stock injectors or anything. Some of the multitude of BMW maps seems to have been really spot on and so cope well with mods, others just fall over and folks seem to need to go down the remap route to ensure they get the most safely from the mods.

With LD dyno session we had to make allowances off his torque monster and a lack of suspension wishbone bushes, as he travelled all that way we didn't want him to leave with nothing.

LD would probably find his next session more in tune with his road findings.

I usually see the a/f .5 leaner on the road / drag strip than on the rollers. So you just allow for it:biggrin:

As I found out going round Bedford Autodrome what you experience on a track is so remote from how well you think your car is on the road unless its 3am in the morning.

Mini tuners who are constantley R&D there cars on tracks / dragstrips / roads will have the knowledge what works and what doesn't

I dont think Jan will even hint at timing / AFs he uses because what he has found has cost him time and money in R&D. 30 Mini owners have signed up for a session in Michigan next week:aargh:

I think there should be a sticky with these discussion on maps etc etc just so it makes life easier for those in the future.

It should also include factual evedience rather than hearsay.

Some links:
- a thread I started earlier on this topic (http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-drivetrain-tuning/144441-importance-ecu-remaps-discussion-results.html)
- ...and the factual evidence in this post (http://www.mini2.com/forum/3216958-post25.html) (don't get stuck with the absolute figures, just look at the delta's plus improved throttle response)

Cheers,
Sam

I definitely don't want him giving away his trade secrets. ;) I know that Jan is very popular with his tune which is why I think that his and your input here are required. I have now done 6 cars with MTH over the last year (I'm the one with the cable and computer knowledge) and of all the cars none have been worse off for having it. Throttle response seems to increase and the car seems to smooth out as well as a noticeable increase in pull. With that being said, if I had a Jan or 1320 local to me I would have probably gone that route. :cool:

Went to BMW paid £30 had the latest 2005 map put on and the car now runs really well, doesn't appear to crackle at top end despite reduced pulley/intake and stock injectors or anything.

Hmm....

This is something I was gonna ask the tech when I had my brakes done but they were uber busy. My ASC seems a little over kill and I do get quite a lot of yo-yo'ing. There aren't enough options for maps and besides I'm too worried about Warranty issues if I stray from the BMW software.

So basically you just went and asked them straight up to put the 2005 software on or was their a certain manner in which you asked?

The car was quite rich on the dyno (i have the A/F somewhere at home) too, when you say crackle at top end what do you mean?

Cheers :)