Essentially what you have is a FWD Evo with a Mini shell on top... Turbo is the the way forward for unnecessary power gains and a sure fire way to ruin the character of the MCS. How 400bhp is usable day-to-day on the road is beyond me.

Personally I would never want to turbo my Mini to sound like an Evo clone... I like my screaming jet fighter sound track ;) .

Agreed!

Ball bearing turbos are more reliable than the earlier ones ,but far from unburstable,correct sizing of compressor and turbine are important ,compressor surge and stall will still destroy any turbo .
given a large enough budget -as say a WRC team then you dont care ,the turbo will be changed during one race ,and they are abused to the max ,with anti lag and very high boost pressures.
Turbos have been through many stages of development ,Twin ,sequential.parrallel,ceramic,360BB,water cooled,oil cooled,VNT,Inconel,twin scroll;etc but they always have the engineering problem of rotating at 50/60/70/80000 or more rpm from idle and at upto 1000degrees c ,coupled with a simple compressor design .and fragile blades
If a fraction of that development had been spent on superchargers ,say on lightweight hollow ceramic rotors in a twin screw compressor or a multi rotor compressor we would now see WRX cars with chargers that could last a whole season of racing!!!
At some point the manufacturers will revisit the charger and they could be commonly used in more high power applications

I stand by saying a ball bearing turbo, in a correctly designed conversion will be more reliable than equiv power SC or TC setup.
Because with a turbo you 'can' :eek:up the boost beyond the turbo/conversion designers spec, there will always be someone who will ! -At say 30psi on a turbo designed for 15psi, then yes eventually a problem may occur.

Roland firstly I must state that responses and opinions I make are NOT directed at your turbo conversion, but at Turbos in general.
I would dissagree that in reliability terms any turbo can match a supercharger.
1 irrespective of bearing type and design something that rotates 5 times faster must wear more
2 something that is 5 times hotter must stress materials more
3 oil feed and condition is more critical
4 turbine/compressor blades are more fragile -easily damaged and the smallest imbalance can destroy the turbo
5 boost control is critical and any wastegate failure(again subject to huge heat enviroment)can destroy the turbo-likewise BOV fails
6 compressor stall/surge cannot happen on a charger
7 compressor blades on the turbo are directly connected to the turbine which can exceed 1000degrees -causes fragility and intolerance of debris entering the compressor- the charger compressor is a solid rotor and can sustain small chips and surface damage
8 turbos require cool down time -often neglected
9 chargers can have belt failure -with no resultant damage!!
10 they cannot be overboosted unless by design/modification
It is not by chance that there are so many turbo rebuild and balancing services,and the majority of turbos they deal with are stock, running stock power.
A simple test would be to run a charger and a turbo at 30psi on a test bed engine on a stand at full speed -hour after hour ,my money would be on the charger!! a bit like the duracell advert:D


Turbos are a great device ,but the original question was directed at the future and I consider the future will be supercharged !!- subject to the oil not running out!!! :D

For a given power output Turbo will put less stress on the engine simply as the SC is using a lot of power to turn it. This also means turbo will also give better fuel consumpsion.
Turbo is also better on emissions & quieter (exhaust ), and I reckon in 10years turbo will be even more popular. I agree that its easy to b......er a turbo up if you dont know what your doing.
Turbo requires no belt changing , the huge drag of a SC puts much more wear on a belt than other low drag items like waterpump/alternator. Its easy to install a boost cutout to prevent massive overboost. A decent turbo installation is perhaps harder to achieve than a SC one, but the best things never come easy.:smile:

You both make great points and it all makes interesting reading... personally I think the future will be petrol powered engines with capcities of 1800cc and less using lean burn and direct injection technology coupled with parallel twin turbo's to reduce lag wrapped in cars made from carbon fibre that are both very strong and lightweight.

Soon the world will realise that hybrid's aren't the way forward as they use so much CO2 to build them and their parts aren't recycle friendly. Diesel's give out too much NOx and although particulate filters are improving they will never be as clean as petrol, the just give better MPG but with the use of small petrol engines in cars weighing around 800 kg MPG will be similar.

But enough of my ranting, having researched turbo's in the last 5 minutes ;) I've found turbo's have pro's and cons:

Advantages

Power: More specific power over naturally aspirated engine. This means a turbocharged engine can achieve more power from same engine volume.

Efficiency: Better thermal efficiency over both naturally aspirated and supercharged engine when under full load (i.e. on boost). This is because the excess exhaust heat and pressure, which would normally be wasted, contributes some of the work required to compress the air.

Weight/Packaging: Smaller and lighter than alternative forced induction systems and may be more easily fitted in an engine bay.

Fuel Economy: Although adding a turbocharger itself does not save fuel, it will allow a vehicle to use a smaller engine while achieving power levels of a much larger engine, while attaining near normal fuel economy while off boost/cruising. This is because without boost, only the normal amount of fuel and air are combusted.

Disadvantages

Responsiveness: Lack of responsiveness if an incorrectly sized turbocharger is used. If a turbocharger that is too large is used it reduces throttle response as it builds up boost slowly. However, doing this may result in more peak power.

Boost threshold: Turbocharger starts producing boost only above a certain rpm due to a lack of exhaust gas volume to overcome inertia of rest of turbo propeller. This results in a rapid and nonlinear rise in torque, and will reduce the usable power band of the engine. The sudden surge of power could overwhelm the tires and result in loss of grip, which could lead to understeer/oversteer, depending on the drivetrain and suspension setup of the vehicle. Lag can be disadvantageous in racing. If throttle is applied in a turn, power may unexpectedly increase when the turbo winds up, which can induce wheelspin.

Cost: Turbocharger parts are costly to add to naturally aspirated engines. Heavily modifying OEM turbocharger systems also require extensive upgrades that in most cases requires most (if not all) of the original components to be replaced.

Complexity: Further to cost, turbochargers require numerous additional systems if they are not to damage an engine. Even an engine under only light boost requires a system for properly routing (and sometimes cooling) the lubricating oil, turbo-specific exhaust manifold, application specific downpipe, boost regulation, and proper gauges (not intrinsically necessary, but very highly recommended). In addition inter-cooled turbo engines require additional plumbing, while highly tuned turbocharged engines will require extensive upgrades to their lubrication, cooling, and breathing systems; while reinforcing internal engine and transmission parts.

exactly what Ive been saying.
RESPONSIVNESS............As it says bigger turbos can give more peak power but at a cost to response . A largre turbo producing peak 500+bhp is not difficult to achieve, reads impressively, but driving on a country road with on off throttle and lots of gear changes?.....it would be horrible. it also requires notable increase in rev limit.
A slightly smaller turbo requires additional systems/changes/wizzardry to achieve good results , but is the answer for applications other than Drag Racing of peak power RR shootouts.

COMPLEXITY.............Correct ,its not easy, and to do it sucessfully without any issues even more so.

exactly what Ive been saying.
RESPONSIVNESS............As it says bigger turbos can give more peak power but at a cost to response . A largre turbo producing peak 500+bhp is not difficult to achieve, reads impressively, but driving on a country road with on off throttle and lots of gear changes?.....it would be horrible. it also requires notable increase in rev limit.
A slightly smaller turbo requires additional systems/changes/wizzardry to achieve good results , but is the answer for applications other than Drag Racing of peak power RR shootouts.

COMPLEXITY.............Correct ,its not easy, and to do it sucessfully without any issues even more so.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~simona/Hell_Frozen_Over.jpg


Read all about it!... Read all about it!... BigShow and Roland agree on something!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Always said your 300T car is the turbo Mini daddy Roland hence why I posted the turbo facts above.

News just it on the supercharged Mini front... Paul has just done a 13.69 at 104 at the Pod in my car on road tyres, Tesco 99 (no additives), no diff and stock clutch... no danger of beating the ET of 105 from last time the car ran there as it's a good 15C hotter but still I'm happy with that!

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~simona/Hell_Frozen_Over.jpg


Read all about it!... Read all about it!... BigShow and Roland agree on something!! :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Always said your 300T car is the turbo Mini daddy Roland hence why I posted the turbo facts above.

News just it on the supercharged Mini front... Paul has just done a 13.69 at 104 at the Pod in my car on road tyres, Tesco 99 (no additives), no diff and stock clutch... no danger of beating the ET of 105 from last time the car ran there as it's a good 15C hotter but still I'm happy with that!

its more fun when you dont agree:p.now you want to try and get some impressive lap times to go with your drag time then you will be very happy:cool:

its more fun when you dont agree:p.now you want to try and get some impressive lap times to go with your drag time then you will be very happy:cool:

Well it might be at Castle Combe on the 19th or it might not ;) will have to see how things pan out when I get back :)

personally, I haven't driven a turbo car yet that hasn't felt peaky. Even though manufactures like Porche and Honda have developed turbos to try and overcome this, most turbos feel ok to a certain RPM, and then it feels like someone flicked a switch and theres a lot more power on tap (kind of reminds me of a golf cart with a broken potentiometer). turbos in general exaggerate the horsepower curve of a car, while superchargers tends to influence an engines dyno curve with the curve of the supercharger itself. That's why I haven't seen anyone replace their roots style charger with a centrifugal type. As for turbo lag, Turbos always have the rather self-destructive aide of an anti-lag system, bad for longevity, but sounds sooo good... :smile:

personally, I haven't driven a turbo car yet that hasn't felt peaky. Even though manufactures like Porche and Honda have developed turbos to try and overcome this, most turbos feel ok to a certain RPM, and then it feels like someone flicked a switch and theres a lot more power on tap (kind of reminds me of a golf cart with a broken potentiometer). turbos in general exaggerate the horsepower curve of a car, while superchargers tends to influence an engines dyno curve with the curve of the supercharger itself. That's why I haven't seen anyone replace their roots style charger with a centrifugal type. As for turbo lag, Turbos always have the rather self-destructive aide of an anti-lag system, bad for longevity, but sounds sooo good... :smile:


MAte you need to drive a new Golf Gti, or anything with a the 2.0 16v vag engine in it. or try a fiat punto abarth 1.4T. The newer petrol turbos are as smooth as you will ever see, no peakiness at all

MAte you need to drive a new Golf Gti, or anything with a the 2.0 16v vag engine in it. or try a fiat punto abarth 1.4T. The newer petrol turbos are as smooth as you will ever see, no peakiness at all
Have to say I agree.... they are perfectly smooth and the torque curves are so smooth. But modified very powerful cars will always be a little bit of a rough ride. I would love to drop my old 2litre turbo lump into the MINI as the torque on it was just amazing. Would storm all but the 350+hp turbo MINIs :)

In a weeks time we will put up a vid of 60-130mph of our GTT350T , in the meantime go to the Mini2 GT Tuning forum to have a stab at guessing the time and winning a prize!:cool:
I think this will convince most that turbo is by far the most effective route to mega performance on a road car.:smile::smile:

Turbos yes yes and yes!

When im not playing with Minis I get to drive the Grinnall S4 with over 400bhp from the VAG 1.8Turbo lump in it. Now thats a toy I need to bring to Castle Combe or the pod!

Turbos yes yes and yes!

When im not playing with Minis I get to drive the Grinnall S4 with over 400bhp from the VAG 1.8Turbo lump in it. Now thats a toy I need to bring to Castle Combe or the pod!
It is a great engine :) Amazing now many cars you will find it in too.

Saturday March 22, 2008 - 60 to 130 Competition - Lonestar Motorsports Park

The 60 to 130 competition will be at Lonestar Motorsports Park (Lonestar Motorsports Park - Home Page (http://www.lonestarmotorsportspark.com)). John Hennessey (owner of the track) was gracious enough to offer his grounds to all of the attendees to leave trucks, trailers, etc...overnight. The gates will open at 9:00 am and the track will go hot at 10:00 am. From 10:00 am until 12:00 pm we will have practice runs. Starting at 12:00 pm until 4:00 pm will be the official runs that will count towards the competition. I will also be available to download your data and post graphs after the event. All awards will be presented at 4:30 pm.

Cost: spectators will pay $15 to LMP. Tech cards will be $40 in the tech lane. Everyone will pay $15 to enter and those interested in racing in the competition will go to the tech lanes to get a tech card.

Food: concessions will be open all day

60 to 130 Classes:

Street Tire Class - this includes all DOT approved, grooved street tires. R-compound tires are also included in this class.

Drag Radial Tire Class - this includes all drag radials in any size.

UNLIMITED Class - this includes all cars outfitted with slicks (ET Streets, ET Drags, Hoosier Slicks, etc...)

Last Year Winning Times:
Street Tire Class - Nick Diep 6-Speed Supra - 6.6
Drag Radial Class - Bob Helms Auto Supra - 4.8
UNLIMITED Class - Stacy Barnett TT Viper - 4.6

Other Car Times for Comparison:
*Denotes that time has been verified by downloading the data and verifying accuracy (making sure there was no data lost during the run)
*4.15 - Bob Helms Autobanh Supra TH400, 88mm Turbo
4.6 - Stacy Barnett TT Viper 6-speed
*4.72 - Peter Blach Autobanh Supra 6-Speed, 78mm Turbo
5.4 - Kelly Martin SRT-10 Viper at TX2K7
5.9 - GSXR 1000 with bolt-ons at TX2K7
6.1 - Saleen S7 Twin Turbo
6.9 - Mosler MT900S
7.0 - Ferrari Enzo
7.3 - Porsche Carrera GT
*7.56 - Vrybad / C5 Z06TT (APS Turbo, no cats, stock muffler, 573 rwhp @ 9.5 psi)
8.6 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06
8.9 - Mercedes SLR McLaren
9.1 - Porsche 993 RUF Turbo R (100 octane)
9.4 - Lamborghini Diablo VT 6.0
9.5 - Ferrari F430
9.6 - Ferrari F50
10.9 - Lamborghini Murcielago
11.7 - Ferrari Challenge Stradale
12.1 - Lamborghini Gallardo
12.2 - Porsche 996TT

and some comparative times:

4.78 - Markski / RWD / Driftbox / 2 shifts
4.90 - Divexxtreme / RWD / Driftbox / 2 shifts
5.64 - Todd Z / RWD / Driftbox / 2 shifts
5.93 - OhioGT2 / Driftbox / 1 shift
5.9x - VRAlexander / AWD / AX-22 *1.3 BAR run / 2 shifts
6.15 - DMK / RWD / Driftbox / 0 shifts
6.26 - Chinitowest / AWD / Driftbox / 1 shift
6.45 - RenntechV12 / GT2 / Driftbox / 0 shifts
6.70 - Dr Jitsu / GT2 / Driftbox / 1 shift
6.74 - Woodster / AWD / AX-22 / 1 shift
7.25 - Colorinc / AWD / Driftbox / 1 shift
7.73 - Eclou 997TT / AWD / Driftbox / 2 shifts
7.84 - 9Eleven / GT2 / Driftbox / 1 shift
7.93 - KPG / AWD / Driftbox / 1 shift
8.3x - 996TT STEVO / AWD / AX-22
8.76 - Scotty slc / AWD / Driftbox / 1 shift
9.10 - Bill S / 993 Ruf R Turbo 490 HP / AX-22 / 2 shifts
9.56 - Topgun / AWD / Driftbox / 3 shifts
10.06 - Panas001 / AWD / Driftbox / 1 shift
10.96 - Woodster / AWD / AX-22 / 3 shifts
__________________
1998 Toyota Supra - Fun Car
839 rwhp

2008 Lexus IS-F - Daily Driver
358 rwhp

What do I win if I pull out "EL DIABLITO" and show what a RMW Chili Red MINI turbo car built to spec can really do?;)

I'm not sure really what you win, proberly bragging rights.

It would be nice to see what a 0-60 is on one of these turbo cars, something tells me it would be slower than a tuned supercharged S otherwise we would of heard and know about it by now, I presume that you're fighting wheelspin or lag in a 0 - 60 test.

I do love this old skool camero 60-130 69 CAMARO DOING 60-130 IN ABOUT 5 SECONDS. NATURAL - Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/69-CAMARO-DOING-60-130-IN-ABOUT-5-SECONDS-NATURAL_66027.htm)

I'm not sure really what you win, proberly bragging rights.

It would be nice to see what a 0-60 is on one of these turbo cars, something tells me it would be slower than a tuned supercharged S otherwise we would of heard and know about it by now, I presume that you're fighting wheelspin or lag in a 0 - 60 test.

I do love this old skool camero 60-130 69 CAMARO DOING 60-130 IN ABOUT 5 SECONDS. NATURAL - Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/69-CAMARO-DOING-60-130-IN-ABOUT-5-SECONDS-NATURAL_66027.htm)

do I get to run slicks?:D

you can have slicks street tyres or drag radials, we've seen 0-60 on Paradas on Big Shows of 5.6 but I think a good driver even in a 230-240bhp car could run that, and thats the problem as the horsepower and trq go up its harder to get it connected to the pavement:biggrin:

Put a set of slicks on and a good track and launch at 7k then woohooo

I might try some of my mates cars this weekend 0-60 and 60 -130, I think the best 0-130 we've had is 5.79 on street tyres pump gas and nitrous:nice:

I'm not sure really what you win, proberly bragging rights.

It would be nice to see what a 0-60 is on one of these turbo cars, something tells me it would be slower than a tuned supercharged S otherwise we would of heard and know about it by now, I presume that you're fighting wheelspin or lag in a 0 - 60 test.

I do love this old skool camero 60-130 69 CAMARO DOING 60-130 IN ABOUT 5 SECONDS. NATURAL - Video (http://videos.streetfire.net/video/69-CAMARO-DOING-60-130-IN-ABOUT-5-SECONDS-NATURAL_66027.htm)
the bbr turbo car was tested and it did 5.1 to 60.the tester said he could have gone a tad faster but as it was a customer car he saw little gain in trying get every last drop out it.it also did 160 mph with a little bit left.i wonder if a tuned supercharged S can get into the 160 mph club:p

the bbr turbo car was tested and it did 5.1 to 60.the tester said he could have gone a tad faster but as it was a customer car he saw little gain in trying get every last drop out it.it also did 160 mph with a little bit left.i wonder if a tuned supercharged S can get into the 160 mph club:p

Give me an airfield and I'll give you 155 mph but I doubt any more than that. I'm guessing the stroker rotrex might.

What's the most you've had out of yours Lee?

Give me an airfield and I'll give you 155 mph but I doubt any more than that. I'm guessing the stroker rotrex might.

What's the most you've had out of yours Lee?


I'd sure be up for trying this, tested mine when I was @225BHP against a 1200 bandit (private road) and when we stopped he said " I was pulling 145mph then and could not keep up!! :aargh: so I would guess I could get quite close to 160mph now with my new power:biggrin:

the bbr turbo car was tested and it did 5.1 to 60.the tester said he could have gone a tad faster but as it was a customer car he saw little gain in trying get every last drop out it.it also did 160 mph with a little bit left.i wonder if a tuned supercharged S can get into the 160 mph club:p

that's cool
And how many times have you hit 160mph on the race track?

Doesn't that sound a better test 60 - 160 I think it sounds better than 60 - 130

I think another good one would be 2000 - 7000 in 4th

I'd sure be up for trying this, tested mine when I was @225BHP against a 1200 bandit (private road) and when we stopped he said " I was pulling 145mph then and could not keep up!! :aargh: so I would guess I could get quite close to 160mph now with my new power:biggrin:

When I had 224hp I maxed out at 153.5mph (or 247km/h) on a German unrestricted highway according to my GPS.

I am quite sure that I could top that now...but I am not sure if I want to try. IMHO the aerodynamic characteristics of our little car might not be so well suited for 155+mph speeds. The folks at BMW wind tunnel did not really do very thorough research at these speeds...

Sam

Ps. The vmax numbers I have seen suggest that my dyno tests are not too optimistic;)

Top Speed is never going to be the MINI strong point , its a bit to LEGO shaped for that!
I bet you could add 200bhp and only 5-6 mph increase,and just removing the mirrors add 3 mph !!!
some of those 60-130 times are astonishing !! 2 seconds quicker than a gixxer!!!!!!
But they dont reflect what the cars are like to drive , we did a customers supra engine build ,circa 800 bhp , when you floored it there was a pause of about 2 seconds whilst the thing spooled up ,a bit like pulling back a crossbow, then the thing hit so hard your brain and senses could not cope with the accelleration ,stunning , but truly awful as a road car -all or nothing
probably 7-8 sec 60-130 though :D and just as fast 100-180

Give me an airfield and I'll give you 155 mph but I doubt any more than that. I'm guessing the stroker rotrex might.

What's the most you've had out of yours Lee?
lets try and sort an airfield like the evo boys do once a year and do the top speed runs and the 30 mph to 130 mph runs.its good fun and as safe as you can be in cars doing those speeds.at one of the evo 30 to 130 days it got quite competative they were seats and trim all over place:o

We're trying to organise one at the moment, venue and dates TBA next week hopefully.