Originally posted by Grinder
In the article, the author seems to think that people would be driving around with the rear fogs enabled all the time like daytime running lights. Wouldn't that require the driver turning the rear fogs on each and every time they started the car? I'd think the "unenlightened but light-empowered owners" would just forget about them--certainly forget to turn them on each time. Sure, i can understand forgetting to turn them off after driving through some thick fog, but who would actually go out of their way to turn the fogs on each time they turn on the car?

My Dad's Volvo '95 960 has the fogs (front&rear) on one switch, so its kinda confusing at first if you don't know whats what.
Of course Mom's '98 S90 (almost exactly the same car) has a seperate switch for the rear fog- so Volvo corrected that!
:)
Anyhoo, congrats on the arcticle Jason!:D

ModoMini...someone posted a link to the article above.

Pretty reasonable article, but I think the author underestimates the fog conditions that can arise in parts of the US. A Sacramento winter fog up easily macthes up against any "highland mist" for thickness and poor visibility. Our fogs are often killers. And as for suburban lighting, well I live in a new, well lit suburban neighborhood but neither of the main roads into the area have any street lighting at all.

I sent in a reply as well. Both Mr. Wilson and Stoll, who wrote the last article, also seem to have a problem accurately representing the number of interested people who have signed the petition. I'd guess that still relatively few of the MINI owners are aware of the petition. He also fails to provide a link, so how is the petition expected to grow?

And I agree with the sentiment that he sorely underestimated the amount of fog we can get here. While I'm sure that Spain gets it's share of fog, being bordered by so much water, however if we follow his logic vehicles in spain get the rear fog because there's a remote chance that they might travel to Scotland, while in America no one goes on vacation, and certainly wouldn't drive to Banff, Yellowstone, along Hwy 101 on the west coast, or up and down the east coast. In short we must be overworked and gullible couch potatoes with no interest in seeing the rest of the country because it's just to overwhelmingly huge. So apparently when MINI says "Lets Motor", it really means, lets drive to and from work, but take the Suburban when you go on vacation because our cup holders aren't big enough to hold a large enough coffee to keep you awake for such a long trip. :)

Cheers,
Brant

Originally posted by BrantV
Both Mr. Wilson and Stoll, who wrote the last article, also seem to have a problem accurately representing the number of interested people who have signed the petition. I'd guess that still relatively few of the MINI owners are aware of the petition. He also fails to provide a link, so how is the petition expected to grow?

I agree. And to further that, MINI and the press should understand that the people signing the petition are really the most immersed in the MINI marketing/lifestyle, are the primary targets of MINI advertising and are indeed the opinion leaders for this target market and certainly within the MINI owner community.

The fact that there are not more signatures is simply a reflection of the fact that very few MINI owners (on a % basis) are aware of MINI2 or RoadFly, not to mention active participants thereof. So, we have an awareness problem. How do we solve it?

Possibilities:
1. If someone on MINI2 or RoadFly posts re: the toggle switches or the rear fogs, we should post a reply with a link to the petition.
2. Once we reach a nice, round number of signatures like 500 I can justify another press release blitz in the hope of some other automotive publications picking the story up.
3. Rate this thread highly (bottom right of your screen) so other users notice this topic.
4. ??

Ideas?

Jason

Originally posted by ezrally


My Dad's Volvo '95 960 has the fogs (front&rear) on one switch, so its kinda confusing at first if you don't know whats what.
Of course Mom's '98 S90 (almost exactly the same car) has a seperate switch for the rear fog- so Volvo corrected that!
:)
Anyhoo, congrats on the arcticle Jason!:D


First off, I add my congrats, I was skeptical of getting a response to the press release. Bravo for going ahead and doing it.

Secondly, since he seems worried about the fogs being 'left on' it should be mentioned at as far as I know, the rear fogs only work (on cars that have them) if the front fogs are already on. So to harass someone with it, you'd need to intentionally hit two switches each and every time you turned the car on. Vastly better system then automatically having the rear turn on with the front.

IMHO
The notion of using rear fogs to harass someone is highly unlikely. These aren't high beams... just fogs. When was the last time you were harassed by front fogs (well aimed) let alone rears? It's just so improbable... why ever bother to argue it?

The lack of a link or direction (for MINI owners) to the petition this is concerning, but predictable. All auto 'zines derive income from car companies in one form or another. I suspect they're hesitant to be perceived as helping us cause MINI/BMW a problem ($).

What if you were to post a new thread with links? ...Something like MINI disables safety feature on North American cars. That'd get some attention.

Keep plugging. This one is definitely worth the time & effort.

Originally posted by minimc
The lack of a link or direction (for MINI owners) to the petition this is concerning, but predictable. All auto 'zines derive income from car companies in one form or another. I suspect they're hesitant to be perceived as helping us cause MINI/BMW a problem ($).

And AutoWeek may be more skittish than most. I heard that after the publisized the Jeep Liberty's handling problems, Jeep stopped advertising with them. Not sure if they started back up again yet but I am sure that it cost them.

Jason

PS - I hate to raise the spectre of legal action since that is not what this is about. But can you imagine what would happen if someone were injured (or worse) after being rear-ended in their MINI in heavy fog knowing that MINI withheld this feature?

I’ll preface this post with the fact that I’m no lawyer, and might very well be wrong.

But consider this:
A rear-end accident involving a MINI (under low visibility conditions) on US roads is only a matter of time.

AND

That BMW/MINI are aware of the fog light concern (via this thread, the petition, the Auto Week article) and have publicized the fact with their own response.

It seems to me then that this potentially exposes them to suit, and that THIS too is just a matter of time.

While I understand that legal action was/is not the purpose of this thread/petition I can’t help but ponder the implications of this petition's existence.

Any legal experts out there care to share an opinion?

Originally posted by jlivingood


And AutoWeek may be more skittish than most. I heard that after the publisized the Jeep Liberty's handling problems, Jeep stopped advertising with them. Not sure if they started back up again yet but I am sure that it cost them.

Jason

Well... the current issue of AutoWeek has an editorial supporting your petition! I didn't realize that our US cars are already fog light equipped...part of the rear light assembly. According to AutoWeek all we need is the toggle to be wired up. Is that right?

Negative. You need the option to be magically programmed into the computer. Apparently the switch is already there too...just not the toggle to activate it.

Originally posted by Grinder
Negative. You need the option to be magically programmed into the computer. Apparently the switch is already there too...just not the toggle to activate it.

Yup, pretty much. Just to clarify:

1. Your car has a rear fog light and all the necessary wiring already in place. I believe that there is probably even a bulb in the light.

2. To activate the light you first need a switch. The toggle switch panel is basically a big integrated circuit board, which makes it kind of tough to add a single switch. BUT, part numbers exist for switch panels with the rear fog switch and these can be had easily and not too expensively. In fact, mine is on the way from the UK right now.

3. Once you have the switch you need one other thing to get this to work - and this is the MAIN thing we need from MINI. That is that the body control module computer (aka BC1) must have the rear fog function enabled in it's computer software. For the sake of reference, the BC1 also stores the functions to roll the windows up and down, turn on front fogs, open the sunroof, activate A/C, etc.

So, basically, they just need to enable the software...

Jason

I agree it was lousy of Wilson to not include the link to the petition, but at least searching Google under "mini petition" (something someone who read the article might be inclined to do) returns it as the first hit :cool:

This thread/information has kind of stalled. I believe that this hurts the petition/our argument.

Does anyone know what's happening (progress or other)?
Further pressure may be needed. Anyone have other ideas of how to get BMW/MINI's attention/interest?

ALSO
And can someone please attach the URL for the AutoWeek article. I have been unable to find it, and I did use google and the aformentioned search criterion.
Thanks,
MC

Originally posted by minimc

ALSO
And can someone please attach the URL for the AutoWeek article. I have been unable to find it, and I did use google and the aformentioned search criterion.
Thanks,
MC

http://www.autoweek.com/columnists/cat_content_columnists.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=columnists&loc_code=index&content_code=05605241

it was at the top of page 7 of the thread. (I think the search method was you could only find the petition itself, not the article).

Originally posted by minimc
Does anyone know what's happening (progress or other)?
Further pressure may be needed. Anyone have other ideas of how to get BMW/MINI's attention/interest?

Further pressure is definitely needed. We have 358 signatures. I would like to get 500 signatures and use the attainment of that nice, round number to do another
press release blitz to the automotive press. BMW/MINI seems only to respond when they get calls from the press.

On another front, Ross-Tech (makers of VAG-COM for VW/Audi) bought a MINI Cooper S (well, Andy did) and they are working on getting their software to work on the BMW and MINI platforms. This would theoretically give you the ability to access and control all of the BC1 settings as well as see all of the OBD information that the ECU collects (including fault codes, etc.)

Jason

Originally posted by jlivingood

On another front, Ross-Tech (makers of VAG-COM for VW/Audi) bought a MINI Cooper S (well, Andy did) and they are working on getting their software to work on the BMW and MINI platforms. This would theoretically give you the ability to access and control all of the BC1 settings as well as see all of the OBD information that the ECU collects (including fault codes, etc.)

Jason

That sounds promising. I wouldn't mind having to "hack" in and enable them... Any timeframe for when this software tool will be finalized?

Originally posted by Grinder


That sounds promising. I wouldn't mind having to "hack" in and enable them... Any timeframe for when this software tool will be finalized?

I asked on that thread, he basically said he had no clue. (or didn't want to tell me... dang marketers)

Originally posted by stryder
I asked on that thread, he basically said he had no clue. (or didn't want to tell me... dang marketers)

No - they simply don't know yet. It's a lot of development work and many times when you get close to programming stuff it all falls apart at the last minute and you have to re-do some code. Best thing to do is to subscribe to the thread at http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20173 to track development. Of course, once it is available I am SURE it will be discussed here too!

Jason

To bump this up a bit: according to http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/metropolitan/1718003

Heavy, dense fog caused one of the largest traffic collisions in Houston's history this morning, and sparked a large fire that engulfed numerous cars on the south Sam Houston Tollway.

When it was over, 75 cars were wrecked, 9 of them severely burned. No one was killed, but 21 people were taken to area hospitals, five of them with serious injuries, said Dr. David Persse, the Houston Fire Department's physician director of emergency medicine.

I wonder how many of these stories there needs to be to get our point across....at least no one seems to have died in this one.

Yikes! That's absolutely horrible. In that situation however, I have to wonder if even rear fogs would help. Apparently the fog came up suddenly and there was almost zero visibility.

Thanks for taking this up - I signed tonight - number 411!

Originally posted by Grinder
Yikes! That's absolutely horrible. In that situation however, I have to wonder if even rear fogs would help. Apparently the fog came up suddenly and there was almost zero visibility.

But, how long does it take to flick a switch for the rear foglight?
It might NOT prevent you from hitting a car in front if you can't see it, but it's still worthwhile if it "breaks the chain" and keeps somebody from hitting YOU.

Mini - WAKE UP and give us this safety option!! :mad:

Perhaps we're approaching this too abruptly. BMW/MINIUSA seems, for whatever reason, not to want to cooperate on this. Here's two alternate suggestions.

Perhaps instead of direct petitions to BMW, we should start an education campaign to the press, inviting them to get interested in the subject of the proper use of rear fogs in auto safety.

Gradually more and more people will become aware of their benefits, however there are real hurdles to their adoption as long as MINI can point to their misuse.

Driving home in the rain last night, was a perfect example of where front fogs might have been beneficial but rears harmful. Every time the driver in front of me applied their brakes, the extra glare reduced my visibility to no further than their car, 1/3 to 1/5 the previous distance. Every time they applied their brakes, the car behind me immediately added a couple of car lengths.

Rear fogs will produce the same glare as an applied brake light, and should only be used in areas where there aren't cars following immediately behind, or visibility is reduced to below the following distance. Driving up a lonely stretch or road in the fog, where you don't know if someone further back will be traveling faster, is a perfect time for rear fogs, but when they catch up, and see you, help them out by turning it off, so they can see past your rear and see part of the corner ahead too.

So I can definitely understand part of MINI's hesitation, although a one page addition to the owner's manual, and trained dealers who could pass along the knowledge would go a long way towards eliminating the misuse. MINI has already eliminated the largest potential for misuse, by reseting the switch every time you turn the car on. The entire subject of the tradeoffs between extra illumination and visibility would be entirely overdue.

Perhaps we can get the media discussing how they can help, why they became standard in Europe, the pros/cons of their use, their safety, and when and where it's appropriate to use them. For the reporters who conclude that they can be beneficial, then the subject of who provides them, and the total irony the the MINI having dysfunctional rear fogs can be brought up.

It must embarrass the engineers to hell, that upper management has disabled a feature that they worked so hard on.


Caution: The following is not intended to induce drivers to behave recklessly, ignore their duties of operating a moving motor vehicle, or endanger themselves by traveling in unsafe conditions. So participate at your own risk. I take absolutely no responsibility for your safety. MINI has already laid the groundwork for being sued for disabling a safety feature. We don't need to test that.

Driving home from the airport early yesterday morning, after dropping off family, there were areas of fog. A few hundred ft visibility in the hills, which wasn't too bad, and not really in need of RF. However it got me thinking. From one of the prior replies, BMW/MINIUSA apparently don't think we ever get fog or weather worthy of extra rearward illumination. Either they think all of our roads are so congested that it's too easy to simply follow the tail lights of the car in front, or that we don't get fog, blizzards, hurricanes, tornados, hail, dust, or have mountains tall enough to drive right up into the clouds. Why not enlighten them with actual proof. Show off the beauty of our bad weather, because MINIUSA apparently doesn't get out much. So from now on, I'm going to try to remember to bring my camera when I drive. Aiming and composition will be terrible, as I'm not going to look down the lens while I'm driving but rather just pick it up and click. Please have your passenger do it if at all possible.

Tonight for example, with all of the designated drivers, even a drunk passenger should be able to take a picture.

Surely someone in the SF bay area could get up early for a 2003 sunrise, and snap a shot of the morning fog either from within or above the blanket, from the hilltops.

In Portland, it's supposed to be dry and cold tonight, with a new rain storm tomorrow morning, so I'll start carrying the camera when I drive.

Enjoy your evening, drive safely and stay around for 2003.

Cheers,
Brant

Houston just had a 70-car pile-up in fog this week. Apparently, a driver stopped because visibility was near zero, and then the folk behind him couldn't see him. *bam!*

Would rear fog lights have prevented 70 cars from colliding and then BURNING over Christmas this week in Texas?

Perhaps...

Damn sorry to hear. But to the question of would rear fogs have helped in near zero visibility, they couldn't have hurt.

My only concern with them is when they're used at normal driving distances. If visibility falls to less then a safe following distance, then having rear fogs would have warned following traffic that they were too close. However, if you can clearly see the car at a safe following distance, then extra bright lights will only increase the glare. And if your normal vision exceeds your following distance, then those rear fogs could limit your visibility. You might never forget that the car is indeed in front of you, but be too blind to see the obstacle it is about to avoid, reducing the amount of time you have to react to the same impediment.

Hopefully people entering the fog also slowed down. Glad to see that, of the 71 cars, there weren't any fatalities.

http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2002/12/021228pileup.shtml.

Google can get too scary for subjects like this.


"It was kind of a wall of fog," said Mike Young, 45, who was driving to work. He said he climbed out of his sport-utility vehicle to safety while hearing crash after crash.

I suppose if the cars eventually caught on fire, they had to get out eventually, but if you're still hearing car crashes stay inside. Your car's safety cage can't do anything to protect you from being struck by another vehicle if you're outside.


Perhaps, we should also forward reports of these accidents to BMW/MINI.

Take care, and get ready to welcome the new year.


Perhaps we have to wait for Volvo, or Audi to do the TV commercial to start making customers want the feature. Or do it ourselves.

-----------------------
A lone car is driving up a steep mountain pass. The clouds are thick and visibility is low, due to the snow. The only thing visible in the shot is the windshield wipers swaying from side to side, as two radio hosts, Mike and John, for the local village are bantering excitedly back and forth about all the new snow.

Mike: "It's been a cold morning out there folks. A brisk -10C."

We finally see a partial shot of the lower front fascia of a car with the front fogs lit up.

John: "Sure has, We got five inches of new power last night"

Mike: "Yah, but the irony, is that the fog's so think only the locals will get to enjoy it."

John: "Nice one, eh"

Mike: "So true"

We hear a faithful purr come to life as the camera pans out and we see it's a MINI with a SKI laden rack, making it's own tracks, as it drives around a bend in the white stuff.

Announcer: "Sometimes it's important to see where you're going."

Then from the inside, looking out trough the windshield we start to hear a familier jingle:

"Rudolph the read nosed ________"

"Hey, what's that, eh?", we hear the driver exclaim.

The first MINI is fast approaching two small red dots. Through the thick snow and fog, we start to get a faint hint, as the passenger replies "It's another MINI with bright red lights on it's ass."

Announcer: "Sometimes it's just as important to be seen."

Then we see a panoramic shot of the two MINI's parked in a virtually empty parking lot at a Ski Lodge. The second MINI has a coupe of snow boards on top. As one person is removing the snow boards from the roof, another is placing sun block on their nose and ears. Then as the shot widens further, we see that they are above the clouds, the MINI's are sparkling in the sun, and these new friends are going to have plenty of fun today.


Of course, if we were to make it, we'd have to then add a big scratching audio clip at the end, and then add that "Unless you live in North America, where MINI doesn't agree."

John: "Boneheads, eh?"

Mike: "It sometimes feels like they just don't care."

John: "Great service, eh?"


Cheers,
Brant

PS. No offense to Canadians. You just gota love anyone who takes the extra time and effort to pronounce a question mark. It's just right friendly don't you think?

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/9134/

-------------------
Dear MINI, We want safety, because life doesn't have rewind.

I was behind an Audi with its rear fog light on yesterday morning @10AM northbound on the Schuylkill (way home from DR - 10,000 mile and seat handles upgrade). Weather was miserable - heavy rain. The Audi was definitely more visible.

Keep up the pressure!!

Steve D.

Actually Canada has no rearward facing foglights either. If I recall MINI Canada could not put them on due to Canadian regulations. Whether this is true or not, it is still unfortunate. Both Canada and the U.S. still have the best pricing on the car by far. Though U.S. dealers can sell over list, Canada cannot.

Over here in the UK, the rule for fog lights is: only when visibilty has dropped below 100m.

Although we do get the annoying pricks who think their car looks better for blinding people(?), in fog the rear fog lights really DO make a huge difference. The idea is that being seen is as important as being able to see.

But, the thing people must realise is that they need to leave a bigger gap between them and the car in front. If you can't see, then surely you should slow down?!

You wouldnt fancy sprinting blind-folded so why drive at such speeds?

Just signed the petition. 516 signatures to date.

BTW, in Europe, the rear fog lights are not only useful in fog, but they are also used to signal the drivers behind you. For example, if one would forget their high beams on at night, you'd simply flash the rear fog lights to remind them to switch to low beams. It's the kind of thing that fosters that motoring spirit that MINI makes such a big to-do about. I can't imagine why they didn't make the rear fog lights available in the US, but I definitely want them.