A 996 is also the current chassis code for a Porsche 911. The previous one was the "993".

-CW

Originally posted by swamos
I hoope I don't get flamed for this, ;) but in reliability terms you must remember that the mx5 can trace a sizeable portion of it's lineage to the last of the RWD 323's. They stopped being sold here in 1982. And the car design is a COPY of a car Lotus designed and built in 1962 (of which I own one!).

Mazda took the the spirit of the original, copied it, modernised it, and sold them by the dozen (well over .5 million now). Mini did exactly the same (only they acknowledged their sources), but built a car that was totally new, in a new factory, with new workforce, new mangement, and a new owner. There are a lot of parallels between the two cars.

The result is a fantastic car that captures the spirit of the original while thoroughly modernising it, just like the MX-5.

Our MINI has been very reliable, and is a much more practical car than the mx-5. In summer I can go out and not get fried (big factor here), and not frozen in winter. I can leave it in a car park and not worry that the roof is going to get slashed, or that the wife is going to end up spinning it on a roundabout somewhere.

Honestly, go ahead, be just another MX-5 owner, it just keeps the MINI more exclusive for a little bit longer. ;)

Err, hold on:

Engine - Not unique in Mini
- Ready for Turbocharging from factory in MX-5

Exlusive - Mini, sold 120,000 in first year
- MX5 sales total just over 600,000 in 12

Just needed to put the record straight

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
Err, hold on:

Engine - Not unique in Mini

Just needed to put the record straight

What other car is the MINI engine used in??? :confused:

I wasn't aware it was used anywhere else..., and the MINI engine is Supercharged from the factory. I't not our problem if Mazda has never been able to do it??? :eek: :eek:

The other difference is that the MX5 is slower than the car it's copied off, unlike the MINI :)

No other supercharged pentagon 1.6's are there?

BMW made a 1997 deal with Chrysler Corp. — pre-Daimler-Benz AG takeover — to design and build the Mini's “Pentagon” engine in a joint-venture operation in Brazil; Chrysler also would use the engine for various non-U.S. applications.

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_bmw_cant_wait/

Big deal, supercharging out of the factory. Can you drop a 'charger on the 115Bhp motor with no mods? No.

Can you drop a 'charger or Turbo onto the 5 with no mods? Yes.

End of.

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
Big deal, supercharging out of the factory. Can you drop a 'charger on the 115Bhp motor with no mods? No.

Can you drop a 'charger or Turbo onto the 5 with no mods? Yes.

End of.
Funny thing is, even the factory turbo charged MX5 available here in aus still really isn't any faster than the 40 YO car it's copied off. :p :p :p :p :eek:

And the original didn't need a turbo... Come to think of it, they hadn't even been invented then :)

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
BMW made a 1997 deal with Chrysler Corp. — pre-Daimler-Benz AG takeover — to design and build the Mini's “Pentagon” engine in a joint-venture operation in Brazil; Chrysler also would use the engine for various non-U.S. applications.

http://waw.wardsauto.com/ar/auto_bmw_cant_wait/
Yes, all old news, but the engine is not used in any other production car.

Originally posted by The General
Thing is I want a Cooper S BADLY - but am put off a little by what I am reading here.
Should I sell my perfect MX5 and get a Cooper S which maybe(just maybe)may have a few teething problems!
Or should I sell the MX5 after the summer (say September)and order a 04 model Cooper S?
There's no choice, get yourself a Cooper S :D
Linda M

Originally posted by swamos
Yes, all old news, but the engine is not used in any other production car.

The Pentagon engine is used in some Neons and PT Cruisers sold in Europe. The engine is not used in any Chrysler products sold in the U.S.

I don't know if they are using the normally aspirated version or the supercharged version.

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
Big deal, supercharging out of the factory. Can you drop a 'charger on the 115Bhp motor with no mods? No.

Can you drop a 'charger or Turbo onto the 5 with no mods? Yes.

End of.

I would HIGHLY doubt that you can just bolt on a turbo to a Mazda MX-5 engine without any additional mods and seriously expect it to be reliable and long-lasting.

That goes for pretty much any engine I think.

Yes, you can bolt a turbo on an MX-5 engine (early models at least) and it will stay reliable.

The Miata's engine is practically a 323 turbo's engine without the turbo, owners with very high mileage cars have been fitting tubo kits without any problems whatsoever...

Here are a few words in defence of the Mazda.

Although it looks a bit like a lotus Elan (popup lights), the Miata was never intended to be an interpretation of the elan. It was supposed to embody the spirit of British roadsters, which it did remarkably well.
When it appeared in late '89, it was a breath of fresh air. A simple, relatively light and fun rear wheel drive roadster... at the RIGHT PRICE. Mazda did this while other car manufacturers had abondoned the sector completely. The only other real rodster available at the time was the Alfa Spider, Born in 1966! I've driven a '90 version of that, and boy does it feel old!

The world went wild when the mx-5 was introduced, mainly because it was a car people had been waiting for for so long. The MX-5 IS the reason why you can buy Mr2 Spiders, Z3s, MG TFs and the lot today. It's a historically more significant car than the New MINI can ever dream of being.

The new MINI is a pastiche of the real thing. A designer's toy, when the original was designed by engineers. Apart from visual similarities and of course the great driving experience, it has no link whatsoever with the original. It's big and heavy, while the original was... well... mini

Yes, I have a Cooper S on order and I know I'm going to love it to bits, mostly because it's a real world car with a some character. It's practical, fast and possesses one of the best FWD chassis ever.

Originally posted by realdriver
Although it looks a bit like a lotus Elan (popup lights), the Miata was never intended to be an interpretation of the elan. It was supposed to embody the spirit of British roadsters, which it did remarkably well.

Look I'm not trying to can the mx5, as it really did a service to drivers right around the world. :) It was, and still is the car that popularised the roadster :D

However, if you think people think the Mx5 looks like the Elan just because of the headlights you are very much mistaken. :(

The MX5 also shares the trademark open smiling mouth that all Lotus share. It also shares the same overall proportions (apart from being much bigger, heavier, and less powerfull).

The suspension design and feel was intended to ape the Elan. Name another british roadster of the time that looks nearly identical to the Elan that has 4 wheel independent suspension, and 4 sheel disc brakes.

The cars drive so alike that a friend who is a MX5 officiando drove my Elan and liked it so much that he bought one too. His words were.. "It drives just like one of the first MX5's". Have you ever back to backed an Elan and a mx-5??

The Mazda designers were so desperate to copy the elan that they even bought one over to Japan. They say it is still in a shed somewhere at Mazda. Even the camcover on the original MX5's looked **exactly** like the one on the elan.

And this was after Mazda did exactly the same thing when they copied the Elan+2 and made the original rx-7. In the pictures they look different, but when you see one in the flesh the resemblence is stunning.

Do you think anyone at Mazda is going to admit this?? You're kidding?? Feeling between Mazda and Lotus was not exactly positive at the launch of the mx-5, as Lotus was just in the process of releasing the FWD Elan (which was much more expensive) which ultimately proved a flop.

Originally posted by sjbartnik
I would HIGHLY doubt that you can just bolt on a turbo to a Mazda MX-5 engine without any additional mods and seriously expect it to be reliable and long-lasting.

That goes for pretty much any engine I think.

YOU. ARE. WRONG.

You can bolt on turbos or Superchargers, there are many available (Jackson Racing, HKS, etc.) and as for being no faster than an Elan....hold on...........


MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

OH and to quell the noise about performance, my Mk2 1.8is does 0-60 in 8 seconds. It is completely stock.

The 1963 Elan:

http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/1963_elan_introduction.shtml

The Elan is by no means a truncated Elite. In fact under the unmistakably Lotus body lies a whole complex of new innards, not the least of which is the Lotus dual overhead cam, 1558cc engine with twin Weber carbs, developing 105hp at 5700 rpm for a top speed of 115 mph. Acceleration times 0 to 60 in 8 seconds flat, 80 in 14 and 100 in 20.

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
OH and to quell the noise about performance, my Mk2 1.8is does 0-60 in 8 seconds. It is completely stock.

The 1963 Elan:

http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/1963_elan_introduction.shtml

The Elan is by no means a truncated Elite. In fact under the unmistakably Lotus body lies a whole complex of new innards, not the least of which is the Lotus dual overhead cam, 1558cc engine with twin Weber carbs, developing 105hp at 5700 rpm for a top speed of 115 mph. Acceleration times 0 to 60 in 8 seconds flat, 80 in 14 and 100 in 20.
Actually, that was one of the first, and slowest cars. The last of the series, and the fastest was the Sprint. It did 0-100 in 6.7 seconds.

So, according to the Wheels roadtest of the only factory turbo mx-5 in the world, a turbo mx5 does 0-100 in 6.3 seconds, and the standard car 8.5.

So, 30 years on the factory turbo can only beat a NA elan by .4 of a second. Not much of an advancement for 30 years. And, even the oldest (40 year old) Elan can still beat a N/A Mx-5. And that's before we even start to talk about modified elans that commonly had 25-50 HP more than the Sprint.

Wake up and smell the roses boys (http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/elan_sprint_brochure.shtml)

Let's not forget that a new standard NA lotus Elise can wop ANY mx-5.

:D :D :D :D

Originally posted by swamos
Actually, that was one of the first, and slowest cars. The last of the series, and the fastest was the Sprint. It did 0-100 in 6.7 seconds.

So, according to the Wheels roadtest of the only factory turbo mx-5 in the world, a turbo mx5 does 0-100 in 6.3 seconds, and the standard car 8.5.

So, 30 years on the factory turbo can only beat a NA elan by .4 of a second. Not much of an advancement for 30 years. And, even the oldest (40 year old) Elan can still beat a N/A Mx-5. And that's before we even start to talk about modified elans that commonly had 25-50 HP more than the Sprint.

Wake up and smell the roses boys (http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/elan_sprint_brochure.shtml)

Let's not forget that a new standard NA lotus Elise can wop ANY mx-5.

:D :D :D :D

Your 'S' @ 7.6s is going to get toasted by an Elan and only marginally faster than a Normally aspirated MX-5.

Your point again?

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
OH and to quell the noise about performance, my Mk2 1.8is does 0-60 in 8 seconds. It is completely stock.

The 1963 Elan:

http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/1963_elan_introduction.shtml

The Elan is by no means a truncated Elite. In fact under the unmistakably Lotus body lies a whole complex of new innards, not the least of which is the Lotus dual overhead cam, 1558cc engine with twin Weber carbs, developing 105hp at 5700 rpm for a top speed of 115 mph. Acceleration times 0 to 60 in 8 seconds flat, 80 in 14 and 100 in 20.
The other reason why the Elan also handles better than the MX5 is that unlike the mx5, the Elan has a x-frame chassis(that incidentally Mazda also tried to copy by strengthening the transmission tunnel) that is far more rigid than any Mx5.

The elan x-frame shocked it's creators (who originall intended it only to get a display car going) who found that it was so rigid that it was actually 6 ttimes more rigid thatn Lotus's Grand Prix car of the time. The technology went on to be the backbone (pun intended) of Lotus formula 1 cars for a number of years to come. :cool:

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
Your 'S' @ 7.6s is going to get toasted by an Elan and only marginally faster than a Normally aspirated MX-5.

Your point again?
Yes, that's right, my Elan is faster than my S, and it turns 34 this year :D

It's just that you said that Mx5's are faster than Elans, which they are not :) And the Design was 40 years old last year. Mazda really did pick one of the best sports cars of all time. They have taste ;)

Originally posted by swamos
Actually, that was one of the first, and slowest cars. The last of the series, and the fastest was the Sprint. It did 0-100 in 6.7 seconds.

So, according to the Wheels roadtest of the only factory turbo mx-5 in the world, a turbo mx5 does 0-100 in 6.3 seconds, and the standard car 8.5.

So, 30 years on the factory turbo can only beat a NA elan by .4 of a second. Not much of an advancement for 30 years. And, even the oldest (40 year old) Elan can still beat a N/A Mx-5. And that's before we even start to talk about modified elans that commonly had 25-50 HP more than the Sprint.

Wake up and smell the roses boys (http://www.lotuselan.net/publish/elan_sprint_brochure.shtml)

Let's not forget that a new standard NA lotus Elise can wop ANY mx-5.

:D :D :D :D

Yeah, the BBR turbo. They turbo'd the MK1 1.6. What do you think happens when you boost a mk2 1.8?

I'll tell you, over 200Hp.

I did not say the MX-5 was faster.

Who cares about the mk5 the elans great the mx-5s a good car if thats what you like but the guy wants to know what to buy and i have to SAY buy the s or be like SWAMOS and have both buy a S and a Elan then life would really be pretty sweet. Dividebyzero how much to turbo a mx5? bet if you spent that money on modding a s you would still blow away a modded mx5.

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
I did not say the MX-5 was faster.
Oops, sorry about that, that was realdriver...

The Australian MX-5 sp is the only factory turbo charged mx-5 in the world. It was actually developed by Prodrive in Melbourne, so I think they did a pretty good job. It developed 150kw and 280nm from it's 1.8. Apparently they really fly.

A mate of mine has one of these. I really do like mx-5's :D

MX-5 SP (http://drive.fairfax.com.au/cgi-bin/drive2002/wrapper.cgi?article=..%2Fdocs%2Fcontent-new%2Fnews%2Fgeneral%2F2001%2F10%2F17%2Fnews1.html&make=&family=&desc=&IsDealer=&search_query=&result_query=&site_section=news&cat=findarticles&subCat=&pType=searchresults&querytext=sp)

Just as Kev'sCoop says, the mx5SP is only a couple of grand dearer here than a S with the JCW kit on it.

Before we get started, I have NO idea which one is fastest :D

Hey, if we keep this up my post count is going to be higher than Basil's by the end of the month. ;) ;)

Originally posted by swamos
Just as Kev'sCoop says, the mx5SP is only a couple of grand dearer here than a S with the JCW kit on it.

Before we get started, I have NO idea which one is fastest :D

The Turbo's and 'Chargers cost around £2000 up to £3000 if you want fitting.

I know how fast the JCW 'S' is, because I've been in one...but I can't talk about it till the 6th of March. aparently....

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
The Turbo's and 'Chargers cost around £2000 up to £3000 if you want fitting.

I know how fast the JCW 'S' is, because I've been in one...but I can't talk about it till the 6th of March. aparently....

Soo, are you going to buy one?? (Yes/No answer only) ;) ;)

Originally posted by swamos
Oops, sorry about that, that was realdriver...



WOT? I didn't say the MX-5 was faster than the Elan, I said that the MX-5 didn't only copy the Elan, but was a mix of british roadster philosophy.

An Elan is way more cool than an MX-5. But it's made of plastic and they can't stop breaking down. Elans were rather extreme cars for the period. Although the MX-5 looks like an Elan, it uses many everyday car parts and has simple (for the period) technology. It doesn't have a backbone chassis and isn't made of fiberglass... In fact it's very close to an MGB in it's "rational" technology.

And no, it isn't fast. But it is fun...

Originally posted by realdriver
WOT? I didn't say the MX-5 was faster than the Elan, I said that the MX-5 didn't only copy the Elan, but was a mix of british roadster philosophy.

An Elan is way more cool than an MX-5. But it's made of plastic and they can't stop breaking down. Elans were rather extreme cars for the period. Although the MX-5 looks like an Elan, it uses many everyday car parts and has simple (for the period) technology. It doesn't have a backbone chassis and isn't made of fiberglass... In fact it's very close to an MGB in it's "rational" technology.

And no, it isn't fast. But it is fun...
I'm sorry, I re-read all the threads and you didn't say anything about it being faster. :eek: It was DividebyZero, he had me there!! Well actually, he didn't say the mx5 was faster in those words, but he said this...

Originally posted by DivideBYZero
You can bolt on turbos or Superchargers, there are many available (Jackson Racing, HKS, etc.) and as for being no faster than an Elan....hold on...........


MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


I better stop on this now, as I'll annoy everyone else too much. One last post :)

Like you say, the Elan was a pretty extreme car in it's day, using radical new technology. The MX5 is mostly a parts bin special with a purpose designed body. This is just what makes them more practical, just as the MINI is much more practical than the classic mini, while retaining the spirit of the original, only in this case, while acknowledging their sources.

If you can't see that Mazda designed the mx5 to be a moderised, practical, production version of the Elan, while retaining the spirit of the original then so be it. You are in the minority. Look here (http://drive.fairfax.com.au/cgi-bin/drive2002/wrapper.cgi?article=..%2Fdocs%2Fcontent-new%2Fnews%2Fgeneral%2F2001%2F11%2F20%2FFFXIALTJ8U C.html&make=&family=&desc=&IsDealer=&search_query=&result_query=&site_section=news&cat=findarticles&subCat=&pType=searchresults) for just one of the press articles describing the Mx5 as an Elan copy. If you want to see more evidence, PM me and I'll start digging for you. The majority of mx5 fans I know openly acknowledge this.

Once again, you're right, it isn't fast, but it is fun. So, like I said at the beginning of this whole story, the MINI is a faster better copy of the original (while acknowledging it sources), and the mx5 is a slower, but more practical (and still fun) version of the Elan (While not acknowledging the sources, in true Japanese style).

:)

No offense taken Swamos. I'm just letting of some steam (I find these little forum fights rather funny).

I know the Mazda has often been refered to as a modern day Elan (it has also been road tested against an Early 60's Alfa Spider by the way). It IS trying to replicate the Elan in many ways (handling/looks). But if you were going to make a modern day 60's roadster, wouldn't you try to copy one of the best looking and handling car of the lot.

But the way it was made has much more in comon with the MGB than the Elan (I know, I've already said this). How else could you explain more than half a million MX-5s?

The car does lack a little "something", character probably.

More interesting is the debate on the MINI. Frankly, apart from the shape, it isn't really a mini. None of the technology used can be compared to the original. Also, it's enormous (In the US it's still the smallest car on sale, but in europe, it has jumped 2 car categories in one hop). It's also very heavy for such a small car. This doesn't take anything away from the fact that it's a brilliant motoring proposition (especially the Cooper S), but it is a bit cynical (not as much as a New beetle though). Have a look at this small review http://www.realdriver.com/news/news.detail.php3?id=1026165574

I have owned 5 Miatas with the 5th being a 10 anniversary 6 speed. I kept my Miata and can give a side by side comparison.

Although both are very fun to drive they are vastly different cars. My Miata handles better then my S but the S is faster. The 6 speed is better in the Miata (close ratio) and more precise.

The Miata seats are better and more comfortable. Controls are better placed.

Although I only have 4600 miles on the S and 50k on the Miata, the S has been in for warranty work more. (1 to 0)

My S is very quiet compared to the Miata unless the moon roof is open. The S has many more rattles and the interior build quality and materials are beneath the Miata.

The Miata is much more user friendly. You can actually buy a service manual for it. (major gripe about the MINI)

I really like my S but time will tell if it will perform as well as my Miata.