In the last post about rear wheel drive conversion, when i was asking for the rear wheel drive conversion, i was actually heading in the 4 wheel drive direction, what i wanted to know is if it could be converted to 4 wheel drive, but since the car has no space for a driveshaft, then 4 wheel drive would be out of the question. Forget about the space for the longitudinally placed engine, i already have a solution for that, but if you could remove the muffler and all that piping, would there be space for a driveshaft?

A 4 wheel drive MINI would have really good handling, and connected to a good engine would be the best car to drive. I just want feedback if it can be done, and if it would be expensive.

thanks,
motaica

Put another engine in the back seat - that's what they did last time.

On a more serious note it is a pain to get a 'crossways' engine to turn power through 90 degrees to drive a shaft to the rear wheels. Obviously not impossible but you would want to design it that way from day 1.

I imagine anything is possible if you got the cash flow. Not to denounce MINIs, but if you are going to spend that kind of cash, why not look into a Mitsu EVO or WRX STi? Heck, with what you could save on the latter, you could make a mean little car.

I agree with Gordon that it should have been designed from day 1. As for ideas, consider an example I read a while back: the Audi TT 4wd drive-train graphed into a Beetle w/ twin turbo vr6 GTI implant. Cost, if I recall, was upwards $200 thou. But the TT and Beetle use extremely similar chassis. The MINI has no such twin, so everything would be custom fabbed and very expensive. The back-seat engine idea is pretty good too. I've heard stories of V-dubs in europe with twin-engined GTIs. I do know there is a racing MINI in Europe with an M3 engine. Tube-framed and very custom.

Maybe eventually BMW will realize the Mini had a rally heritage and produce a WRC competitor. We could only be so lucky.... (please, please, please, please...)

Oh man, if Mini release a 4WD model, I would be in heaven. I've had two AWD Subaru's previous to my Mini. The Mini is the only car I would give up AWD for. My wife is the same way, she drives a Lada Niva...4WD. If they really wanted to resurrect the Mini as a world class Rally car, it would have to be 4WD. Mmmmm, imagine the handling like the Mini has now PLUS AWD?!?!?!:D

Steve

If Subaru can get AWD into the WRX and Honda can get it into the CR-V, the I should think Mini could do it as well. It might be a little tricky, but both other manufacturers use side mount engines and seem to get power to all 4 wheels with no problem. I think it's just a matter of time before we see this one. Personally I can't wait to see it, and I'll be all over it :D Autocrossing with an AWD Mini, now that's something I'd be in heaven with.

Scott

I dunno, the Subaru engines are all longitudinally mounted, I'm not sure about the CRV, but I would assume it's the same way...although they do make a FWD version, and Subaru's used to be available both ways...similarly for VW. Just strikes me that the gearing required to get the drive to the rear wheels based on the current configuration might be difficult...I would imagine you would have to drive the center diff from the front differential if you kept it transversely mounted. :confused:

Steve

WRC is out of the question because the Mini is too small...

They race 4WD and 4WS minis in the top class Ice raceing series, using a 400bhp, mid mounted V6. Now that tickeles my belly.

How about a 4wd taking a page from the Honda Hybrid. Put a bigger battery in the boot with electric rear wheel drive giving the possibility of 4wd and electric rear wheel drive - battery charged when braking. In most cases you don't need 4wd but it would be there when you need it

VW made special 4 wheel drive versions of the Golf in addition to the normal front wheel drive models. Some them were a little too "off road" for my tastes. Here's a '91 Golf Syncro:

Wow, that looks pretty cool! Kind of a predecesor to my old Subaru Outback Sport. It also reminds me of an older Jaguar Sovereign that someone here in Hamilton turned into a monster truck. They actually did a really good job of it too.

Steve

Go the NASCAR route. Get your favorite AWD chassis and drop a MINI-lookalike body over it.

I have seen photos of classic Minis with V8s in the back seat. I'm assuming that they used a different drivetrain as well as a different engine.

Check out the latest issue of Mini Magazine. There's a guy who took a '99 (?) Mini and dropped a JDM spec Type R engine and transmission into it. 240hp. Eat your heart out JCW owners!

Steve

There is a guy rallying a new cooper in the british clubman series with a 4x4 setup, you wouldn't know from the outside. a picture of the car was in motorsports now! an RAC MSA publication...

For the kind of cash you'd need to spend to get a 4x4 MINI on the road you could buy a Tiger z100wr. Twin engines, 4x4 and in road legal form it does 0-60mph in 41 metres (2.8 seconds is another way of looking at it!)

Part of the transverse engine bay/longitudinal engine requirement just got solved by Peugot. Their new 307 WRC car has just such a setup, IIRC, there's a bevel gear that heads out of the front dif to drive the rear wheels. Came across that on Crash.net in the WRC section, talking about the unveiling of the new car.

Steve

Excuse me but... why a 4x4 Mini? :confused:
For a compact car like Mini the front traction is good, and then the power is not enough to wish more traction.
I hate 4x4, for me is the opposite of enjoy driving: too much grip is not fun! :D
I love rear traction instead, the only true for a sport and expensive car.
For example, a Porsche 911 Carrera4 or Turbo are not fun like a Carrera 2, GT3 or GT2 and a BMW 330i is more charming than 330iX.
I will not use ASC+T or DSC in my Mini because i like to control and drifting the car myself, differently you can buy a SUV. :D

For technical question, more 4x4 in Europe are made with transversal engine: Audi S3, Golf R32, old Lancia Delta Integrale, ecc.
But the best application if you want a 4x4 is the longitudinal engine like Impreza STI or Lancer EVO.

In my club many drivers with MIni, Peugeot 106 Rallie, Clio Williams or Rs, Saxò 16V, Integra or Civic Type R are often more fast in the street than STI, Escorth Cosworth and EVO VII. At least in dry and low speed street.

WRC is out of the question because the Mini is too small...

I would be interested for a Rule Quote to support the above Statement ( I've read Through Rules Section 2 and Appendix J). I am hearing rumours that WRC is being looked at with a 4x4 2.0 Turbo.

I would be interested for a Rule Quote to support the above Statement ( I've read Through Rules Section 2 and Appendix J). I am hearing rumours that WRC is being looked at with a 4x4 2.0 Turbo.

Yeh! and my granny's got a V8 pacemaker :rolleyes:

Yeh! and my granny's got a V8 pacemaker :rolleyes:

Sometimes Rasp if you have nothing constructive to say, it's best to say nothing :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

No offence midlifemini but I personally cannot see a 4 wheel drive mini in the future can you? as you mentioned and indeed what sums it up "a rumour" dont get me wrong it would be interesting but I just cant see it happening, I think 996gt3 hase some good points a couple of posts back inwhich gives good reasons why it will not never happen and I was putting the point accross that theres more chance my nan would get her V8 pacemaker before this car was ever produced..

Quoted from:

http://www.wrc.com/en_GB/News/2003/008/2003_R_DE_FabiaHomologation.htm

Homologation rules in brief

To have a rally car homologated for the World Rally Championship is a complex process. At least 25,000 production cars of the basic model range, with a minimum length of 3750 mm, and at least 2,500 cars of the model from which the rally car has been derived, with a minimum length of 4000 mm and a wheelbase of 2440 mm, must be produced. With the Fabia WRC, this condition will be met by the production of the Škoda Fabia RS that was presented for the first time at the 2003 Geneva Motor Show.


The MINI is 5 inches too short for homologation for WRC. Until the MINI grow a few inches, NO WRC cars

RASP -

Whatever you do don't either you or your parents try and get a deaf aid via the NHS for your Gran!! The V8 model WOULD be out first :D

(Don't suppose anyone on here has tried it - no, thought not!)

I have no doubt that the MINI model range will change and expand over the years.

I expect there to be a proper roadster with a mid engined motor.

There will also be a model with a longer body that will meet WRC regulations, and it will be mid-engined and either rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive. The extra body length will allow for a variety of engine sizes and types.

Once the MINI brand has been established and there is a possibility of creating new models for new markets, I can see no reason why BMW would restrict itself to FWD models only.

Just my opinion and hopes.

Peeps, just a few points. And, these are just what came into my head after reading all the above, they are not in any way meant to diss peoples ideas or opinions ok :)

1) Mini would not suit a 4x4 powertrain. It would be very difficult to incorporate 4wd into the existing engine/gearbox and short of using a morotbike engine in the front longitudinally mounted, no suitable powertrain would.

2) Mini was created as front wheel drive and unless BMW have engineered a new floor plan for around 2008, i cannot see BMW making a suitable business case for re-tooling a new floor pan. I am certain the demand would be low relative to the number of total Mini sales. 5% maximum 4wd sales would not cover investment costs. No business case.

3) Little benefit in dry conditions. 4wd would only eliminate power-on understeer and maybe buy you 0.5 seconds off the line. Is it worth spending more than the value of a new mini on a conversion that does this? Ok, wet conditions would be a benefit such as pulling out of a T-junction, but, in the dry, ultimate mechanical grip provided by the tyres on a 2wd mini would be no greater than that of a 4wd mini.

4) Modern Evo's and WRX etc. All the road going rally cars i have seen on the limit tend to inherently understeer anyway. Car manufactureres are engineering this into the handling of the car specifically for the 'front wheel drive generation'. Why you ask? Think about it.

5) Performance benefit? Hmmm, increase vehicle mass, double amount of rotating drivetrain, increase friction, lose driveability, lose fuel economy, naaa, it just aint stacking up. If ya gonna be an ice racer or rally-cross racer then its all good, but for driving on ordinary roads, i wouldn't bother.

At the end of the day it is up to the person who has the $$$ and is prepared to undertake such an engineering task. I may appear to diss the idea, but wait, i am an engineer and would amire such a conversion and it owner for taking on the task.

Dont forget peeps, owning a mini is all about being individual, and a 4wd certainly would be that.

Cheers

C_P

I have no doubt that the MINI model range will change and expand over the years.

I expect there to be a proper roadster with a mid engined motor.

There will also be a model with a longer body that will meet WRC regulations, and it will be mid-engined and either rear-wheel drive or all-wheel drive. The extra body length will allow for a variety of engine sizes and types.

Once the MINI brand has been established and there is a possibility of creating new models for new markets, I can see no reason why BMW would restrict itself to FWD models only.

Just my opinion and hopes.
Between the street versions of WRC cars ONLY Impreza and Lancer EVO are 4WD: 206, Focus and Accent are FWD and Octavia is a "false" 4x4 with Haldex differential. For my is ragionally improbable see a 4WD Mini.

About engine, the best solution is a very efficent 2.0 4-inline naturally aspirated likely Honda (240Cv).
V8?? :confused: The only car FWD V8 that i known is Lancia Thema 8.32 powered by Ferrari 328 engine. And it's a **** of car! :D

About a super-Mini i think a 2.0 from 220-240HP, FWD, rollbar, a lot of carbon fiber and very light in philosophy of Porsche Clubsport, Modena Challenge Stradale or M3 CSL.
To go fast add lightness (Colin Chapman)! :D

It would be really cool to see a 4WD mini, but they would have to do something about power output, because remember you are carrying a lot more weight with a driveshaft, different gearbox, and so on that by the end you have got 4WD but you are carrying extra weight that it acctually slows the car down a bit. I would say that they should do something like the Clio Sport. A mid mounted 24 valve V6 engine with drive running to the rear wheels, this would be impressive I would imagine.

V8 model WOULD be out first :D

(Don't suppose anyone on here has tried it - no, thought not!)

I picked up a UK mag called "Racecar Engineering" that had a big writeup on v8 derivitives of common motorcycle 4-cylinders. 2.0L, 300+ hp @ 11,000rpm , 160lbs, small external dimensions. Would make for a VERY interesting mid-engine conversion.

Too bad the motor costs $20,000. But parts are readily available (direct fit from their 4-cyl parents).

It would be really cool to see a 4WD mini, but they would have to do something about power output, because remember you are carrying a lot more weight with a driveshaft, different gearbox, and so on that by the end you have got 4WD but you are carrying extra weight that it acctually slows the car down a bit. I would say that they should do something like the Clio Sport. A mid mounted 24 valve V6 engine with drive running to the rear wheels, this would be impressive I would imagine.

The idea of a central engine and rear whell drive in a compact car is very interesting.
The Clio V6 however, is not a good car, often more slow of a Clio 2.0 Rs: the engine is too weight, equipped on the gear box (too high!) and few power. The handling results very bad.

WRC is out of the question because the Mini is too small...

I dunno tho'. The 206 is about the same size.......

Mini back in WRC...now there's a thought.