This is for all the U.S. MINI owners. I've seen so many threads talking about this (it even creeps into non-related threads), and I just don't understand. So many people are passionately (almost violently!) upset about the lack of rear fog-lights on the MINI. I had never even heard of rear fog-lights until I started reading the MINI forums, and don't really see the need unless you live in London or Seattle. I'm 32, and in 15 years of driving have never even used the front ones, and didn't order them on my MINI. I suspect that most of the people are upset over the empty toggle space, rather than the lack of the lights. I don't have my MINI yet, will be here soon, but how annoying can an empty spot be to get you all this upset? Maybe somebody could explain this to me to help me understand.

Self explanitory.

-Andrew

Originally posted by L8 Apex
Self explanitory.

-Andrew

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA LOL http://www.rallyfreak.com/content/forum/smileys/rotfl.gif http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif http://www.rallyfreak.com/content/forum/smileys/rotfl.gif http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif http://www.rallyfreak.com/content/forum/smileys/rotfl.gif http://www.bmwm5.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/biglaugh.gif http://forum.e46fanatics.com//images/smilies/banghead.gif

well i must say, it is intriguing since if you get the rally lights that the empty hole is still not used.

Ok, I am not violently upset, I am just annoyed that mini would leave the spot empty. Think about it. On the MFSW, there is a button on the left side that does nothing. They didn't just leave the spot where the button should have been blank. All I wanted for mini to do was to put a switch in that spot that does nothing, just to fill up the pannel.

-Andrew

If you don't order ASC+T or DSC on a european model you have a switch space too.

I agree, when we saw the empty space, we just thought it would have been a no-brainer to stick a toggle for something else or one that does nothing in there to keep that cool panel complete.
Then we found out what it was for and realized how silly it was for them to take it out in the first place...

It seems to me that there are 2 camps in this argument:

Camp #1: Upset because they get a panel with 5 toggle switches instead of 6, thus leaving one blank, where the rear fog light switch should be located. (For the record I have 3 empty toggle switch spaces in our Cooper CVT...no DSC, no front fog lights either).

Camp #2: The rear foglights are an essential safety element. other German automakers already offer them in the US, such as Audi. Therefore, not having the rear fog lights enabled constitutes a serious safety breach in part of MINI.


So, which one does everyone belong to?

And how come no one seems to be so violently upset because there's an empty space in front of the sunroof (the one on the left controls the sunroof, the one on the right ???)?

...and that space could have better placed map spot lights, for example. ;)

The passion and zeal surrounding this issue has surprised me too.
I suppose they might come in handy sometime, but I mostly doubt it. Chatham fog here is famously thick at times, but I can always see the cars lights in front of me. From what I've seen and read of the massive fog-related highway pile-ups, it wouldn't make any difference at all if you had a bank of ralley lights on your rear bumper because so many drivers are still doing 80 mph and driving as if conditions were perfect.
Next, someone here on mini2 actually stated that they refuse to buy a MINI because of the missing toggle switch!:confused: PUHLEEZZ! This is totally mind boggling. This car is so much fun, who gives a foo about a lousy toggle switch!
Rant over.

I guess I'm in Camp#3.

I don't know for sure how many toggle switches I'm missing without going out to the car to see.

Not very important to me. I seem to have a switch for everything that I want and that is good enough.

Originally posted by planeguy
well i must say, it is intriguing since if you get the rally lights that the empty hole is still not used. Yeah, don't that inhale!?! And they go and cut a hole in your dash. Whats with that?

I like the empty toggle space -- it helps me orient myself when I'm hunting for a window switch or fog lights without looking.:D

I think the sting over this issue is more complex – multifaceted. It’s the fashion thing, the safety thing, and an attitude/class warfare thing.

...Lets for arguments sake say we weren't discussing rear fogs, but ABS brakes instead.
A few years back lots of folks said "why should I want or pay more for ABS?" "…I've survived up to now without it... What good is it?" Now... only a few years later ABS has gained market-wide acceptance. Most folks won't think twice about a car that doesn’t have ABS. Airbags are in the same category.

Yeah… no one NEEDS ABS , but there are a lot of people out there who's butts have been saved due to the extra margin of safety they provide. You might believe that you know how to brake well… and that you can stop as well (or better in some conditions) as with ABS. BUT as we all know it’s those emergency stop conditions where ABS can & does pay for itself.

So, I pose the argument: Why not think of all of these items – rear fogs included as safety features?

It’s a lot like life or home insurance? You buy this type of insurance because you might need it, and you hope you never do. Think of all the people living to ripe old ages without ever collecting on accidental death/dismemberment, or fire insurance. ...Does this mean people shouldn't buy these types of insurance? Is this insurance somehow less valuable because the odds of needing it seem low?

Any extra margin of safety's a good thing.

BTW
Didn’t you see all of those news articles last year & this about mutli-car pile-ups (50+ cars) on major highways? I bet all those folks thought they could see the car in front well enough too!

Last couple of points – I promise! BMW vs. MINI issues.

- High $ US BMW's get rear fogs... MINI's don't (at least not here)
- Rear fogs are standard on ALL European cars - MINI's too
- US MINI's are close to 99% equipped to activate the rear fogs

So... someone somewhere @ MINI/BMW had to make the decision NOT to equip US/CAN MINI's with rear fogs. WHY? What could the reason be? Doesn't it simplify things to outfit all cars with the same gear where possible? Wouldn’t it be more cost effective? - Guess not?

Finally:
There's the knowledge that MINI/BMW decided to:
a) Lie when questioned as to why the fogs weren’t' there
b) Refuse to activate r- fogs for those who want, even if we offered to pay for this service.

What harm could there be in giving us a feature they already offer in other markets? Especially considering it requires minimal labor & an ECU reprogram?

Doesn't this all seem wrong on numerous levels?
Shouldn’t all members of the BMW family get the safety of rear-fogs… or must we have spent X thousands & have a little BMW logo on the front of our cars to qualify?

While you might not value rear fogs I would hope you might appreciate these perspectives.

I've got a hole in my switch panel, as mentioned before, I have no traction control.

Without wishing to offend (honestly), I think there's a teeny bit of jealousy that European cars have fog lights and US ones don't. Everyone wants something they can't have.

There is always going to be things that are different on spec from one continent to the next.

Although this doesnt affect me, (inless i drive in fog in the USA?) i do think its kinda dumb!

If theres no law against it, then y not allow it? (its not as if people are going to protest over it...)

Originally posted by StevePSB
I've got a hole in my switch panel, as mentioned before, I have no traction control.

Without wishing to offend (honestly), I think there's a teeny bit of jealousy that European cars have fog lights and US ones don't. Everyone wants something they can't have.

There is always going to be things that are different on spec from one continent to the next.

I'll agree that it is jealousy. European cars alwasy have the stuff that we want. The european WRX's make more power, the european Civis, Foci, and many other cars make more power, handle better, stop faster.... We are just jealous over here. Case and point: I wish that BMW would have imported the euro E36 m3 to the US, because ours only has 240 hp, the euro has 321! I just wonder why we always get stuck with the second rate cars. Not to start a debate, but I wonder if it is animosity toward America in the upper BMW management.

-Andrew

PS, I don't want rear fogs, I just want the switch. Seriously, American drivers suck, they drive with their fog lights on ALL the time, it would stink to have to follow someone with their rear fogs lights turned on in a clear night.

Originally posted by L8 Apex
....Seriously, American drivers suck, they drive with their fog lights on ALL the time, it would stink to have to follow someone with their rear fogs lights turned on in a clear night.

I'm for rear fog lights for all the right safety reasons, but there should be a Driver's IQ test to see who gets them!

Just about every single week I spot a car or two (mostly Volvos, but also Audis, Jaguars, Mercedess) with rear fog lights blazing brightly on a perfectedly clear night. :mad: :mad: I think most of these idiot drivers have their front fog lights on causing the rears to switch on automatically. :(

When you follow a car with rear fog lights on in clear weather, the "safety issue" becomes a NEGATIVE one - the the bright red light (single or pair) DISTRACT from the dimmer normal taillights, slightly blind other drivers, and can help mask the fact the brakelights are being applied!

I think this is worse than improper use of the front fog lights in clear weather as the following driver's are obliged to constantly stare at the the rear tailights (and the bright rear fog lights) of the car in front of them.

Okay, so what's the difference between the dope who doesn't know how to turn his fog lights (including rears) OFF in clear weather and the dope who rides his brake pedal?

Here's another question. I don't know all the delicate details of the electronics, I'm just an old shade-tree mechanic. What happens if we want to use the extra bulb in back for a stop light, and we (dare I say it) cut the wiring and splice the fog bulb into the brake circuit? Then we can use that extra switch spot to operate the power back-seat folder.

SCooperS.....
i've already done this......
check out this site for the how to!
www.bridger.us/mini
it looks great, and now people see me braking from further away.
the last thing i want is to be rear ended in such a small car!

Originally posted by BruceK
[B]I think most of these idiot drivers have their front fog lights on causing the rears to switch on automatically. :(

I wonder if those vehicles use an analog switch rather than digital, and the drivers have simply forgoten that they turned them on a couple of months ago. Nice thing about the MINI's switch is it is digital. The computer resets the switch every time the Engine is started (or key inserted). So cases of accidently forgetting should be reduced immensely.

I'm not sure IQ tests would work. When the owner decides to upgrade to a newer MINI in the future, do they become responsible for testing the knowledge of the buyer?

Locally it's gone insane. Seems like 1/6 of all vehicles have fog lights on nightly. Wish the city would use some of the alloted time for public service announcements to remind drivers that it's illegal. Then after a couple of weeks of warnings, start ticketing people. The state could sure use the revenue.:(

Originally posted by nfo
SCooperS.....
i've already done this......
check out this site for the how to!
www.bridger.us/mini
it looks great, and now people see me braking from further away.
the last thing i want is to be rear ended in such a small car! Thanks for the link! I'll have to bookmark the Bridger site.

First of all, thanks to everyone for replying to my question. I didn't expect so many people to take interest in it. I have a better understanding now. I think it probably will annoy me too, now that I have seen the picture with the empty spot. And I will probably have more empty spots since I didn't order the front fogs, or the traction control. They should have just redesigned the panel with a little more space in between toggles, so there wouldn't be that empty space over here in America.

I really find the empty whole alittle annoying too... I can live with it, but if theres a cure, I'll take one of em'! :D

There's certainly an issue with cars whose front and rear fogs operate on one switch - that *should* be illegal, at least until the DOT pattern headlights put enough light on the road that people aren't tempted to add the fogs every day... :rolleyes:
I've got around the blank toggle space issue by buying the euro panel, not a big deal... but I'm still annoyed that MINI thinks I'm not capable of operating the lights. Every argument they make against enabling rear fogs is equally applicable to the front ones and yet I'm sure 90% of the MINIs sold in the US have front fog lights...
I think what really makes people mad is that MINI is pushing the safety aspects of the car in the US (presumably to get over the small-car-is-less-safe mentality of the SUV hungy consumer) and yet deliberately disables a safety feature that still has almost all the hardware in the car.

Guess I am not too jealous about the European spec MINI's:

* Less standard equipment (Side curtain airbags are optional in Europe, standard here, for example)
* Equally or more expensive than US spec siblings
* We get Leatherette seats, they don't (They get the half cloth, half leather seats).
* The equipment packages are better in the US than in Europe.
* In Europe if you want the 8 spoke 15" wheels you are forced to get their "premium Package" (Chili? Pepper packs?) , meanwhile in the US 8 spoke wheels are a standalone $0 cost option
* They get the slow 90HP MINI ONE, thankfully we don't.
* We get the cool looking side marker lights mounted in the wheel arches...they don't.
* We get CD Radio Boost standard, they don't.
* We get A/C standard, they don't.

So, I don't think that BMW is short changing the US/Canadian customer. I think we get a better equipped, more competively priced MINI than they do over in the Old Continent.

Cheers.

Originally posted by cooper4us

* We get the cool looking side marker lights mounted in the wheel arches...they don't.

I hate those side reflectors. when I get my MCS, one of the first things I'm gonna do is get european fender flares!

-Steve

Well, the USA market is short changed when it comes to the heated front windscreen that we can't have. Kind of another safety item available everywhere, most recently Canada I'm told.
:confused:

Originally posted by GadgetGav

I think what really makes people mad is that MINI is pushing the safety aspects of the car in the US (presumably to get over the small-car-is-less-safe mentality of the SUV hungy consumer) and yet deliberately disables a safety feature that still has almost all the hardware in the car.

BULLSEYE!