Hello, am I the only one here that thinks the stumble is related to the clutch and not the ecu? If you start out very slowly, no gas, then only apply throttle after the clutch is fully engaged there will not be any stumble. Through searching the forums, I've come across it being a sprung flywheel or a clutch valve. If anyone else has looked into it being a mechanical issue I'd love to hear your thoughts.
btw, I have two mcs' and work at a dealership and they all do this when trying to quickly take up drive.
thanks

The stumble, hesitation is caused by a programming fault. ACTUALLY, BMW has addressed it and has a definite fix it. I have spoken to some people who are knowledgeable about the situation and the fix. The program upgrade or fix must first be approved by one of the government agencies that oversee manufacturing and how these effect the environment. The EPA must test, approve and give it a stamp of approval before an automobile manufacturer can release the product and synchronize it with an approved engine. It should not be all that long before it is available for the dealerships to flash customer cars. This is the best I can do as far as information. It is most defiantly not a mechanical issue. The programming versions available now will not take the stumble away.

Thanks for the response, but does anyone know the function of this problem. What is the ecu trying to do? Is there anyone that experiences this when clutch modulation is not a factor? I don't want to start an argument, but it just seems too easy to say computer issue and not look at how the driver contributes to this problem. Thanks again.

This is strictly a computer problem. Clutch driving tecnique has nothing to do with it. I have driven several MCS' and I can tell you that the clutch/Getrag gearbox is not the issue here. these cars use throttle-by-wire technology (E-gas pedal) and the Siemens EMS2000 ECU management system heavely controls all phases of acceleration from the get go. This applies to the Cooper 5-speed, CVT and MCS.

I understand what everyone thinks is responsible for this problem. I'm trying to understand why. A syllogism would be great.

002,

Accepting that all other factors remain constant (engine mods, if any, fuel etc)

It didn't occur with pre DMEv33.2 software
DMEv33.2 software update introduced the stumble
therefore the cause is DMEv33.2 and later software

This is what everyone who is experiencing this has found, it's not a difficult analysis to make, just been very difficult one to get BMW MINI to accept.

Where have you found it referenced to a sprung flywheel or a clutch valve? I'm fairly certain I was one of the first to post about this and have endured the problem for 5 months, without seeing a single reference to a flywheel / clutch issue.

Also you can recreate to stumble on decceleration with the clutch fully engaged, thus eliminating the clutch / flywheel interface.

I couldn't find the posts, but they both were from mini2 forums. One said that the clutch valve was ment to reduce driveline shock at engagement (thus the delayed engagement) and that these were also used on new bmw's. I haven't had a chance to check with a tech at work yet, but will tomarrow. The flywheel thing caught my eye because I know of sprung discks but not flywheels. Perhaps I don't have any "stumble" and I just don't like how this clutch feels. I've noticed that most new bmw's do this a little also. Although, for the first few thousand miles both of my cars stumbled a little while lightly on the throttle around 3000rpm. Thanks again.

I've not noticed this on any of the new BMW's I've had as loan cars when mine's gone back in for this to be fixed. that's 4 so far, plus 3 demonstrators for my wife's new purchase.

Also, what do you class as the "first few thousand miles"? Mines done 7000 in 5 months, and the stumble is still as bad as the day it was new.

The stumble, hesitation is caused by a programming fault. ACTUALLY, BMW has addressed it and has a definite fix it. I have spoken to some people who are knowledgeable about the situation and the fix. The program upgrade or fix must first be approved by one of the government agencies that oversee manufacturing and how these effect the environment. The EPA must test, approve and give it a stamp of approval before an automobile manufacturer can release the product and synchronize it with an approved engine. It should not be all that long before it is available for the dealerships to flash customer cars. This is the best I can do as far as information. It is most defiantly not a mechanical issue. The programming versions available now will not take the stumble away.


Interesting info. Do you have a more specific delivery ETA for the new firmware?

Do you work for MINIUSA?

First some credentials. I have driven manual transmission cars for 20 years. I have driven a manual supercharged car for 12 years.

My MCS was a June 02 build delivered in Aug 02. I had the 2nd gear yo-yo only. In Feb 03 I had the new SW loaded, 33.2 I believe, and imnmediately noticed the stumble in 1st gear. Too much of a coincidence to me to think that suddenly I forgot how to use a clutch, or that my clutch coincidently developed a fault.

That said, I also saw the talk about it being a clutch issue, and I tested various clutch techniques but could never ensure a smooth start everytime.

I am convinced it is a ECU issue.

Interesting info. Do you have a more specific delivery ETA for the new firmware?

Do you work for MINIUSA?

I do not have an ETA. The time it takes for government stamp of approval can take some time though. Any time anyone deals with the red tape of Government the wheels of bureaucracy move at a slow pace. From what I understand, BMW is anxiously awaiting the fix for the customers, as it has put a black eye on customer satisfaction. I do not work in the auto industry at all. I had a problem with my MINI and I am pro when it comes to getting problems solved, it landed me being able to talk with some very key people in the technical division. If I get any more info I'll pass it on.

I do not have an ETA. The time it takes for government stamp of approval can take some time though. Any time anyone deals with the red tape of Government the wheels of bureaucracy move at a slow pace. From what I understand, BMW is anxiously awaiting the fix for the customers, as it has put a black eye on customer satisfaction. I do not work in the auto industry at all. I had a problem with my MINI and I am pro when it comes to getting problems solved, it landed me being able to talk with some very key people in the technical division. If I get any more info I'll pass it on.


Thanks MINIQUICK, I appreciate your response. I think BMW needs to excercise all the pressure they can to address these issues as soon as possible. Releasing these cars to market with half baked engine management software was very poor judgment in the part of BMW. What were they thinking??

I'm not a MINI owner yet, been reading about all the likely problems I'll have to deal with before hand. The closest dealer is >250 miles from my home, traveling over some pretty nasty & desolate area. The stumble issue is stumbling my decision. I just call the dealer (Mini of Murray in Utah) & talked w/the service dept. At first the mechanic said he didn't know about a 'stumble' problem, when I described it he said they had had 2 w/the problem & the problem resolved by 'replacing the computer'. Has anyone here heard of this as a definitive fix for the problem???

I actually took delivery of a Cooper S from Mini of Murray last week and drove it all the way back to California.

Before taking delivery of the car, I was also a bit concerned about the stumble issue. After driving the car, all I can say is "big deal." I would not have noticed it had it not been because of all the posts here. I am not losing sleep over this slight thing. Much better things to do, like smelling the roses or taking the twisties.

In my opinion, no car is perfect. When I first bought a 3 series BMW, all I read were the rattles from the windows and how some owners were going crazy over that. But it was not much of a big deal. The reason why some owners were so anal about it is because they thought that slight rattle was not nice after spending 30K on the car.

But as my BMW technician said, there is no perfect car.

Just enjoy the Cooper S. There are going to be all sorts of problems. I can assure you that. But I think we are just getting a bit out of wack here.

I actually took delivery of a Cooper S from Mini of Murray last week and drove it all the way back to California.

Before taking delivery of the car, I was also a bit concerned about the stumble issue. After driving the car, all I can say is "big deal." I would not have noticed it had it not been because of all the posts here. I am not losing sleep over this slight thing. Much better things to do, like smelling the roses or taking the twisties.

In my opinion, no car is perfect. When I first bought a 3 series BMW, all I read were the rattles from the windows and how some owners were going crazy over that. But it was not much of a big deal. The reason why some owners were so anal about it is because they thought that slight rattle was not nice after spending 30K on the car.

But as my BMW technician said, there is no perfect car.

Just enjoy the Cooper S. There are going to be all sorts of problems. I can assure you that. But I think we are just getting a bit out of wack here.

DreadedMini:

We're not getting out of whack. Some people have no stumble, some have only a slight stumble, and for some it's so severe that passengers' heads are thrown forward and the nose of the car drops down as if under emergency braking. That's how it was for me until they fixed mine by sending my ECU off to New Jersey where BMW's engineers worked on the software. Just be glad your problem is slight enough that you can live with it, and motor on!

Our 03 Cooper has the stumble. We have talked to several people at MINIUSA and they tell me the problem is in the ECU software. They claim it is caused by the charcoal canister purge valve. Apparently, the purge valve opens, which changes the fuel mixture causing the car to stumble. They claim the fix is in the works, but that was a month ago and still no word.

DreadedMini:

We're not getting out of whack. Some people have no stumble, some have only a slight stumble, and for some it's so severe that passengers' heads are thrown forward and the nose of the car drops down as if under emergency braking. That's how it was for me until they fixed mine by sending my ECU off to New Jersey where BMW's engineers worked on the software. Just be glad your problem is slight enough that you can live with it, and motor on!

Oh I do understand what you are saying. I actually read through all your messages before taking delivery of my car. I am sorry for the guys whose cars are totally out of wack. Maybe my car will become one.

My reply was to Indutton, who was concerned about even ordering the car because of how these problems have been discussed here. My concern is that whether all these discussion just scares people away from even considering purchasing the car.

Having gone through four years of owning a BMW, I can tell you that there is going to be one issue or another that will frustrate an owner to the point of saying that the car is a lemon. Also, this is not only a BMW thing. Go to any other car forum and your find a problem with tons of discussions about it (go to audiworld or Is300.net). Sometimes it makes you wonder whether all the car manufacturers are producing defecting products.

So, after all this convoluted writing, all I am saying is: Indutton, don't worry. Boise may be far away from SLC, but I don't think the stumble is a cause for you not to buy the car. Of course, take my words with a grain of salt, given that I had a Fiat Spider in my distant past :D

DreadedMini:

Sorry I misunderstood you. I do agree that if you're ordering a new one your chance of getting a car which stumbles seems to be low. In fact I've told people that if I had to do it all over again I'd still have bought a Mini, just not a used one because the new ones seem to have far fewer problems.

Fiat Spiders are fun cars. My brother-in-law had one in his distant past too. I do know what you mean though - I learned how to work on his when it was dead in our driveway for a week. : )

Dreadedmini,

I can tell you my stumble problem is serious. My house is 3 houses from the main road. It is at this point of turning onto this road from a stop that my stumble happens everyday. Only once a day but it is like clockwork.

I have to be very careful that no cars are anywhere near me because my mini almost dies. I have to rev the engine several times with the clutch in as I roll into the intersection before finally letting go of the clutch.

My dealer actually was able to replicate this problem when they kept it overnite. They did not know when a fix would come so I am excited to hear that it may be close.

kcmini, I did read your prior messages. Yes, it must be rough going through this issue.

Having read through tons of messages on this issue, it is obvious that it varies on how bad it is. It seems to affect more on cars that are driven in hot climates.

I live in the northern part of the SF bay area. Temperatures range around 70 to 80 (normally). I can't say that I notice the stumble but after reading all these messages, I tend to be keenly aware when it happens. All I can say so far is that it is only on first gear and only during the first couple of minutes after starting the engine. For lack of a better word, it feels like a cold engine with a carburator, as if you had the choke pull out to make the fuel mixture leaner. Old timers, who have tinkered with carburators, may know what I mean.

Well, best luck to everyone and may the computer program gurus in India take care of this problem. :D

jason,
by first few I ment first 3 thousand miles, (a few meaning 3). I drive the new cars around the lot all day and most engage the same way. I'm a little bit suprised they loaned you 4 manual cars, I don't think we have anything but automatics. Anyway, this is going the wrong direction. I just wanted to kick around some alternative ideas. cheers.

Thanks bobbie,
That is exactly the type of answer I was looking for.

I'm a little bit suprised they loaned you 4 manual cars, I don't think we have anything but automatics.

Don't forget I'm in the UK, where the majority of vehicles sold are manual. ;)

sorry, I didn't think of that. I'm so use to our cars coming with french fries and cell phones at no extra charge. :D tonight for the fisrt time I felt a stumble after the clutch was released. I hope this isn't the begining of beautiful relationship with my service adviser .

I have an April 02 build MCS. After a few months it developed the yo-yo acceleration problem in 1st and the cold start problem. Minor, but annoying. I took it in for warranty service at 10k miles, and reported the cold start problem knowing that a software upgrade was in.

After servicing this month, the cold start problem was gone, but replaced with the stumble. The only way I can avoid the stumble is to accelerate smoothly from a dead start like the chauffeur of a bar limo. Normal acceleration is something like a bull ride. Also, my gas mileage dropped by 2mpg and the idle is occasionally rough. I much prefer the old software with its cold start problem to this "fix".

I'll be going back for service in couple of weeks and will report the outcome.

I actually took delivery of a Cooper S from Mini of Murray last week and drove it all the way back to California...................


But as my BMW technician said, there is no perfect car.

Just enjoy the Cooper S. There are going to be all sorts of problems. I can assure you that. But I think we are just getting a bit out of wack here.

The BMW techs "no perfect car" come back is typical from someone protecting against the so many different problems the Mini DOES have. I have been in other forums on other cars and yes other cars do have problems but compared to the Mini it aint nothin.

I just bought a first year build FX35 to replace my LEMON mini - The FX has only been around for 6 months or so and far less problems than the Mini. Best of all no yoyo or stumbles. The FX handles beautifully and goes like no other car in it's class - no it can't be compared to the mini but I am also looking at the G35 to replace the 540 in my garage - I am doing this due to BMWs lack of response and infact deviation of responsability on the hiccup stumble and yoyo issues. BMW have not been honest in their dealings with me on these issues and I do not appreciate it. They don''t deserve my business (or anyones) and I will never own another BMW.

The BMW techs "no perfect car" come back is typical from someone protecting against the so many different problems the Mini DOES have. I have been in other forums on other cars and yes other cars do have problems but compared to the Mini it aint nothin.

I just bought a first year build FX35 to replace my LEMON mini - The FX has only been around for 6 months or so and far less problems than the Mini. Best of all no yoyo or stumbles. The FX handles beautifully and goes like no other car in it's class - no it can't be compared to the mini but I am also looking at the G35 to replace the 540 in my garage - I am doing this due to BMWs lack of response and infact deviation of responsability on the hiccup stumble and yoyo issues. BMW have not been honest in their dealings with me on these issues and I do not appreciate it. They don''t deserve my business (or anyones) and I will never own another BMW.


Fine enjoy your bloated FX. One less MINI on the road!!!!

Stumble, yo-yo, cracked windshields, squeaky seats, squeaky windows, windows that mysteriously open while unattended, clunky transmissions, rear hatches that don't close, rear hatches that leak, tire pressure indicators that don't work properly, airbag warning light problems, rattling body panels, cruise control problems, & on, & on, & on...

My MCS is due to be delivered within four weeks. Looks cool. Lots of toys. Test drive was fun. But, because of the above, I am only going to lease - don't want to get stuck with a thorn in my side all for the sake of an occasionally twisty road. Come to think of it, I might as well keep my cherry-perfect-never-given-me-a-single-problem PT Cruiser for the time that the MCS is probably going to spend in the shop!!!!

Stumble, yo-yo, cracked windshields, squeaky seats, squeaky windows, windows that mysteriously open while unattended, clunky transmissions, rear hatches that don't close, rear hatches that leak, tire pressure indicators that don't work properly, airbag warning light problems, rattling body panels, cruise control problems, & on, & on, & on...


Again, check any car-related forum. You'll see tons of complains, no matter what car. Even the legendary lexus have owners with tons of complains.

But in the end, it is up to you. You just have to make the best judgement with the available information. Enjoy the car or be worried forever.

Stumble, yo-yo, cracked windshields, squeaky seats, squeaky windows, windows that mysteriously open while unattended, clunky transmissions, rear hatches that don't close, rear hatches that leak, tire pressure indicators that don't work properly, airbag warning light problems, rattling body panels, cruise control problems, & on, & on, & on...

My MCS is due to be delivered within four weeks. Looks cool. Lots of toys. Test drive was fun. But, because of the above, I am only going to lease - don't want to get stuck with a thorn in my side all for the sake of an occasionally twisty road. Come to think of it, I might as well keep my cherry-perfect-never-given-me-a-single-problem PT Cruiser for the time that the MCS is probably going to spend in the shop!!!!

I leased for the exact same reasons you did nervous. If things are sorted out and looking good at the end of the lease I will probably buy it out. I love the car but it is one of the most poorly assembled vehicles I have ever owned outside of old Detroit iron. Quality control seems to be virtually nonexistent, I suppose the upside is that I pretty much knew this going in. People that find out after the purchase are undoubtedly more irate about it then I am.