Dear all,
Just out of interest, is it going to be very costly in terms of preparation and maintenance for taking the MCS to the track, say for several 30minute runs? Could someone with track experience provide a to-do-list on what preparation is required? (For example, brake upgrades and how to deal with high oil temp)
Thanks.
Hubert

Best thing you can do is have a seperate set of wheels and tires for the track... money well spent in my opinion.

Dear all,
Just out of interest, is it going to be very costly in terms of preparation and maintenance for taking the MCS to the track, say for several 30minute runs? Could someone with track experience provide a to-do-list on what preparation is required? (For example, brake upgrades and how to deal with high oil temp)
Thanks.
Hubert

Hub - You've got all that stuff but did you do the brakes and upgrade the brake fluid? Probably THE most important thing you can do for the track. All the other stuff may make you go faster but the brakes could kill you if they fail. I've seen it happen too many times in my very limited track exposure.

If you do nothing else get a set of Ferodo 2500's for the front and change the brake fluid to one of the DOT 4 race brands. That way you will stop and you won't lose the brakes due to boiled fluid. Given that you have spent all of that money I would do rear ferodo's, and rotors as well. Oh, and if you do it, do it a few hundred miles or so before you go to the track so the pads can bed properly.

Thanks guys,
I haven't done any track oriented changes to my car yet.
IMHO, these are the stages of the brake upgrade for track:
Stage 1 - Race pads (Ferodo 2500/3000 or Mintex M1144/M1155) + SRF or Motul RBF600
Stage 2 - Drilled rotors for better heat dissipation
Stage 3 - Front big brake kits

What about the oil temp? I was reading the melted cat thread and those oil temps really worries me.
I thought anything above 120 would not be acceptable!? How about changing the engine oil? How come I've never heard of an oil cooler upgrade for the MCS?

Hubert:

As posted by others in terms of equipment, brakes are what you need to pay most attention to for any trackday event. It's always best to bleed the brake system with fresh top quality brake fluid just prior to and immediately after trackdays. My AP 304 mm kit came with DOT 5.1 fluid (compatible with DOT 4). Not to be confused with DOT 5 which is not compatible.

Ferodo DS2500 sounds like a good choice since my Formula Renault uses Ferodo race pads. I will be getting the DS2500 for my MCS rear stock calipers with grooved disks to complement AP 304mm fronts.

I also suggest you observe cautious driving technique. For instance, take 1 warm-up lap, then for next 5 laps start at say 80% driver/car capability, then progressively ramp up to 95%. Then take 1 cool down lap quite slowly with minimal need for braking. This will give your engine and brake disks a chance to cool down. Once into the pit, as much as possible try coasting to a stop without brakes so the pads don't stick to disk and possibly cause disk warpage. Once car come to stand still, DON'T use the parking brake for the same reason. Just leave car in 1st gear.

By doing 7 lap instead of say 15 lap per session, your car will undergo far less stress. Besides, it will give you a chance to sit down between sessions and think about the braking, turn-in, apex, and exit points to improve for the next session.

It's very hard to resist the urge to go hog wild as soon as you get on the track, but believe me a full day at the track is infinitely more fun than having your day cut short by mechanical breakdown or getting caught in the gravel traps. I have seen too many accidents at trackdays where drivers do serious damage to their cars and themselves by getting too eager too soon. Don't mean to preach; it's just my observation.

If you are planning a track day at ZIC, PM me and I can give you some pointers on the braking points at ZIC. I am interested to take my MCS to ZIC too, do you know if there is any scheduled ZIC trackday for Minis coming up? Good luck.

Hi cwwhk,

I knew this thread would catch your attention. Thanks for your advice!

Yes, I noticed everyone doing warm up and warm down laps during my previous trip at ZIC.
By the way, I heard that GTI Engineering in Chai Wan is the local dealer for the parts sold at GGR, and that includes the AP brakes you've got. So when you come to replace your brake pads in the future, you might want to speak to them instead. Did your AP304 kit come with the stainless steel braided brake hoses? What brake pads does it come with?

I have no plans to take my MCS there in the near future, cos I'm planning to learn the track using my Elise first. Unfortunately, afaik, we're the only 2 MCS owners who would consider taking the cars to ZIC, so nope, I won't foresee any Mini track days anytime soon, unless we can convince others that taking our cars to track doesn't mean trashing them ;)

Do you know where I can get a good race helmet for a good price? I only know Kingsmart for Sparco.

Ah...fuel.
I remember that the quality of fuel supplied at ZIC is rather poor. Don't know how much damage that'd do to our cars. Have you ever replaced the fuel tank of your F car (or other cars) due to rusting?

Hi Hubert:

Thanks for the tip on GTI Engineering. I just got the same tip from ERdoc. I guess I should have checked around locally before buying from overseas. My AP kit came with 2 cross drilled disks, 2 4-pot calipers, 2 stainless steel braided hose (Goodridge), mounting bolts and shims, 2 cans of DOT5.1 brake fluid, and set of pads (does not say who made the pads, but I assume AP or Ferodo).

I got the Sparco full face helmet 3 years ago from Kingsmart. At the time it was the only place in HK and acutally cheaper than mail order from UK. Don't know if it's still the cheapest. Sparco helmet is actually quite good (ie. light), not like Bieffe or some other brands. However, I have since switched to Arai GP5, for better cooling ventilation during the summer. Talk about expensive, but I figure for what it's holding maybe it's worth the money? :)

Whatever brand you end up getting, I recommend you get the full face version with Snell 2000 certification. Before you buy, make sure you try on the helmet. Different brands fit differently. You may find a particular brand fit your head shape better. Make sure the helmet fits snugly, such that it won't move around your head when you give it a twist. Of course not so tight as to cause pain. Most people when buying a helmet for the first time tend to buy one size too large because they are not used to the feel, which is not safe. Don't forget that if you intend to wear a Nomex balaclava, try the helmet on with it.

I have heard fuel supplied at ZIC is very inconsistant. Not so much in terms of water in the gas causing rust, but quite dirty sometimes so can clog fuel filters. Nobody I know gets gas at the track side station. Besides they will charge you more than double the street station price on super unleaded. Even more for their racing gas which is of dubious quality anyways. Fill your car up at one of the main street gas stations at Zhuhai, and you should be OK. If you run low on fuel during track day, there is a Sinopec station just to the right of the main road. I would rather trust that one over ZIC's gas.

Good luck on your Elise trackday. Meanwhile I guess we will just have to try and convince a whole bunch of other MCS owners in HK that ZIC trackday is a good idea. Until then, I will have to be content with Formula Renault practice sessions and get ready for 2004 race season.

It's funny to see that nobody gets petrol from the ZIC station, yet they still don't bother to improve on the quality of fuel that they offer.

Where can I get the Arai helmets locally? Or other brands?

Good luck on your next Formula Renault season!

So no takers on the high oil temp issue?

It's funny to see that nobody gets petrol from the ZIC station, yet they still don't bother to improve on the quality of fuel that they offer.

Where can I get the Arai helmets locally? Or other brands?

Good luck on your next Formula Renault season!

Hung Hing is the HK distributor for Arai. That's where I got mine. My employee knew someone and got me a bit of a discount. Don't remember exactly what I paid but some where between HK$5,000 to HK$7,000. Arai GP5 uses that it calls Super Complex Laminate construction, there is a cheaper version GP5K or GP5S or something like that which is substantially cheaper and uses Complex Laminate construction. A racing buddy of mine got the cheaper version, which was almost half the price. Besides the different shell construction, I did notice different ventilation layout. Check out Arai's web site at www.arai.co.jp to get more info.

Telephone number for Hung Hing is 2337-2463. In case you are wondering, I am not connected to Hung Hing but happen to have their bag with the tel # in front of me. Visor tear-offs for next visit to ZIC. :)

As said before, get a set of tires for track use. No point in destroying the stock tires on the track because their preformance is so-so anyway. Also, remember you are not driving a race car, but a street car. Don't pound the car over curbing, and be careful on the cut up apex curbing (the kind that make your car vibrate like mad) because all that shaking can't be too good for the car. And lastly, pay attention to the brakes. Brake wear is increased substantially when the brakes are overly hot, so don't cook 'em unless you want to replace them. Try to brake a little earlier and lighter than you would normally, and pretend that it is threshold braking. It won't make any difference in how much you learn, as long as you keep your braking constant.

Have fun :)

-Andrew

**edit**
I didn't have any problems with high oil temp, but I was shifting a bit short of redline every time.

HK$5000+ is really outside my budget. I guess I'll have to stick to a heavier helmet with less ventilation :)

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for your reminder. Have you got an oil temp gauge on your car?

Hi cwwhk,

I have no plans to take my MCS there in the near future, cos I'm planning to learn the track using my Elise first.

Damn, that's what I always say.....why dirty up the Mini when you can run the Elise. :D

Damn, that's what I always say.....why dirty up the Mini when you can run the Elise. :D

Hee....the 2 cars are built for a very different purpose. It would be nice to take the Mini on the track for once to test it's limits.

Hub -

Yea, I know...I've wanted one since they were introduced. Unfortunately, not sold here for street use until now.

Do you have the Rover or the new Toyota?

You might want to check out NAM-Mark's Elise forum if you haven't already. Not a lot of traffic but some nice pics.

http://www.puresportscar.com/

Thanks blue!
I have the earlier version of the Elise with the Rover K-series engine.
I heard that the Toyota Elise is a lot heavier than the K-series ones, talking about 100kg, with a lot of unnecessary stuff in the car, like electric windows and noise reduction padding, which IMHO, should be stripped out on day one. To be honest I don't think I can live with an Elise on highways in the US, cos the suspension is so stiff (the US version may be softer) and the car is so noisy. Sitting so low on the highway with pickup trucks and SUVs around you could be very dangerous cos you just can't see very far ahead. It's a car that should be kept purely for track, and occasionally for showing off in the city ;)

Yea, I heard the curve on the Rover is so high that it borders as unsafe on the street. E-windows are OK. Colin put them on my Elan in '68 because the total weight was less than the mechanical system. But I've read that the new Elise comes to the US with required stock A/C (really dumb for SCCA rules-you can't remove it), heavy wheels, no LSD and non-adjustable shocks. While those are all faults of the Mini as well (save the shocks) they shouldn't happen to a car that even in its "new" US fatter form should still spend 90% of its time on or getting to the track.

.......but it's so damn pretty! :D

Dear all,
Just out of interest, is it going to be very costly in terms of preparation and maintenance for taking the MCS to the track, say for several 30minute runs? Could someone with track experience provide a to-do-list on what preparation is required? (For example, brake upgrades and how to deal with high oil temp)
Thanks.
Hubert


Hi Hubert,

I have done a lot of time on the track with the mini, and it is great fun.

You can run a cooper S on the track completely stock without any problems. This is especially true for first timers, who tend not to push the car too hard. However, as you have tracked other cars before, you will push quite hard. The brakes and tyres are the first things that are likely to cause problems.

For anyone considering tracking the car I would say do a couple of track days first before modding anything, just to get an idea where you are at, and then look at priorities. However, before doing a track day make sure the tyres and brakes are in good condition. In particular, you would not want less than 50% on the front pads, or you could trash them in a day.

In order, my priorities would be :

* Brakes : track pads and lines, with better fluid. I use Galfers, which are similar to the ferodo 3000's, but ferodo 2500 is an excellent pad
* Tyres : a set of track rims and type-R tyres. This will make a huge difference to times and performance
* Suspension : bigger rear bar, coilovers with stiffer spring rates, negative camber front and rear.

As far as overheating goes, I was one of the people involved in the discussion about oil temperatures / melted cats previously. I know of 4 people in Australia who have either melted cats or headers due to high temps. However, only people who have had pulley upgrades of some sort have run into problems, and no-one running a stock cooper s has had problems. No-one in any other country seems to have had problems, so maybe it is something unique to Oz due to our combination of temperatures / humidity / fuel mixtures etc.

I have now completely fixed the problem. For more details check out my thread "my australian modification experiences" on the Australian board. In a nutshell I have fitted different headers, with a 2.5 inch cat back exhaust, and a free flowing cat. In addition I fitted an oil cooler, which has made a big difference. I've attached a photo at the bottom.

I note you allready are running headers / exhaust etc, so you may not have a problem. What oil temps are you running with street driving?

Also, doing lots of short sessions (5-6 laps) rather than 40minute sessions helps.

By the way I notice you have a set of 16" white volks for sale. How much are they? Do you know the weight, and rim width? I might be interested.

Cheers

Robbo

Robbo MCS,

Thanks for dropping by.
Great writeup on your mods in the Australian board!

Since my car's got the 15% reduction pulley, I believe an oil cooler like the one you've got would be a must for the track. It's good to see that your car's oil temp doesn't rise above 120C now. How do you manage to find a spare transmission cooler from a MC? From the dealer?

Now there's a problem. I wanted to retain my car's performance in the heat so I'm planning to install a water-air intercooler, which means moving the radiator to the front. I have no plans to remove my air-con so the air-con radiator will stay where it is. And now an additional radiator from the oil cooler...problem comes down to the lack of space in the engine bay again :rolleyes:

The electrical load may be a problem too with the 2 additional pumps for the intercooler and oil cooler :rolleyes:

By the way, you might like to try the D02Gs (soft compound) next time when your D01Js wear out. My friend who tracks a lot likes it very much :D

I sent you a PM regarding my wheels.

Robbo MCS,

Thanks for dropping by.
Great writeup on your mods in the Australian board!

Since my car's got the 15% reduction pulley, I believe an oil cooler like the one you've got would be a must for the track. It's good to see that your car's oil temp doesn't rise above 120C now. How do you manage to find a spare transmission cooler from a MC? From the dealer?


Now there's a problem. I wanted top retain my car's performance in the heat so I'm planning to install a water-air intercooler, which means moving the radiator to the front. I have no plans to remove my air-con so the air-con radiator will stay where it is. And now an additional radiator from the oil cooler...problem comes down to the lack of space in the engine bay again :rolleyes:

The electrical load may be a problem too with the 2 additional pumps for the intercooler and oil cooler :rolleyes:

By the way, you might like to try the D02Js (soft compound) next time when your D01Js wear out. My friend who tracks a lot likes it very much :D

I send you a PM regarding my wheels.

Hi Hubert,

The guys working on my car purchased the transmission cooler from BMW spare parts. It required some minor modification, but was not overly expensive.

I would love to get a proper water/air intercooler. The intercooler is definitely the weak spot in the engineering of the mini in my opinion :( Unfortunately, as you point out, there is not much space to fit any alternative! In the meantime I will have to make do with my intercooler sprayer. For track days I fill the resevoir with ice and water before each run.

By the way, since fitting the oil cooler I have had no problems with either water temps or air conditioning. Last week there was a day where the air temperature was reading 43.5C and I went for an "aggressive" drive on some back roads. The water coolant temp from the OBD was reading 94-98C range, and the air con worked fine. The oil temps stayed under 100.

I am aware of the soft compound dunlops. They are certainly faster and grippier over 4-5 laps. They tend to deteriorate pretty quickly after that. The problem for me is that I do some track days where I do 250km in one day on high speed circuits, split into 6-8 sessions and they would just wear too much.

Next tyre change I am going to try the new yokohamas. Other people in the BMW club (not minis) have been getting great results in terms of fast times and good wear.


Cheers

Robbo

Robbo,

Have you ever considered the larger Alta air-air intercooler instead? That should be helpful on the track. If you happen to find a way to fit a water-air system in the car, please drop me a note!

I'm very surprised that no shops are selling oil coolers for the MCS, when so many owners are taking theirs to the track. I had a look in the engine bay this morning and I can't find an oil cooler. Does the MCS not come with one?

I believe you're really pushing your car on the track in order to get to those oil temps. Why don't you upgrade to the larger brake kits as well to reduce chances of overheating?

Cheers,
Hubert

blue,
I have to say that I'm really surprised that electrical windows can weigh less than mechanical ones. Heavier wheels and non-adjustable shocks won't matter for posers. For those who asks for more, aftermarket is the way to go. Getting completely off topic here :p

By the way, I'm really interested in your front bumper mod! Please post the pics in this forum too :D I'm sure many of us here would like to know about it too. 14Lbs loss for free sounds good! Does it look unchanged from the outside?

Have anyone checked this out - water injection - as this could solve some of your problems with temp. Just trying to figure out if it would work properly with the Mini engine.

www.aquamist.co.uk

OK Hub, some others have asked 4 it so I'll pull the front bumper (again) and take some pics.

Cliff - A few of us have tried water injection. I had my system on all last summer. Absolutely no butt diff, in fact, I think that it ran better without it (15% pulley). Mine is in hibernation for the winter as I want to see if it makes a diff with the new 19% pulley in the summer. If it doesn't it becomes a sprayer for the intercooler.

Hubert:

Do you know who sells the Ferodo DS2500 in Hong Kong. And do you know how much it cost? I am thinking of getting them for my MCS rear.

And also how much firmer do your KW V2 coilovers feel compare to the OEM MCS setup? Thanks. :)

Sorry, I'm not too sure who sells the Ferodo, but I would give TW Auto a call and I'm sure they can help you out.

I've only test driven a stock MCS for about 20mins last summer, so it's hard for me to say how the KW compares against these. I've not taken any measurements either. All I can say is...with the KWs set close to hardest, it feels much harder and more jumpy than the stock Elise suspension, which I don't like. Even the slighest uneven road surface would transmit right through to me and I can sing with voice vibrations like Alan Tam. Therefore, I had the setting adjusted close to softest now, and it feels more like a stock MC, except it leans less around corners and is less jumpy, which is great for the street, for now.

I'd love to try out a MCS with KW V1s, cos I want to know what KW's optimised setup is like, but unfortunately I don't know anyone using them.

Some say that the KWs are relatively soft compared to Ledas and H&Rs, so it's just right for the street. I'm looking forward to a review of the Bilstein PSS9s though.

I'm not sure why the Mini tends to be quite jumpy, whether it's because of the suspension, chassis or bushings etc.

Wanna try my car to see for yourself?

U guys may get Ferodo pads from Sam Woo ( direct translated from cantonese) motor parts co. which located at Junction Rd./ Ngar Chin Wai Rd. Kowloon City.

Hope it may help!

Hubert:

Thanks for the comments; it helps. Wow, you are too generous. I sure would love to try your car. Maybe after Chinese New year if possible. Will PM you then.

Laxsion:

Thanks for the tip on Sam Woo. Will try to find this shop. I could get the Ferodos by mail order but would prefer local supplier.

By the way I checked Ferodo's web site and am quite surprised to see that the DS3000 pad has coefficient of friction at 0.62, whereas I think I read somewhere the DS2500 Cf is more like 0.5. I also confirmed that the Formula Renault uses Ferodo 4003 race pads with Cf 0.48. Does anybody know what the OEM pad Cf is?

My theory is that if DS2500 Cf is say 15% more than OEM pads and I put them on the rear OEM brakes, then it will perfectly complement the AP 304mm kit I have at the front and restore the OEM brake biase front to back.

Robbo:
Do you think it would be possible to mount that oil cooler radiator under the A/C radiator instead? Or somewhere low?

Blue:
Since you've taken the front bumper off before, maybe you could comment on this too?