MINI2

StuJones · Nov 2nd, 2004, 03:23 AM

Just got confirmation from the organisers of Targa Tasmania that JCW Kits are an illegal modification. Any cars that enter with JCW kits will not be accepted

They have just rejected the Queensland Sherrin Team entry on this basis.

JCW is not 'showroom standard' and also does not comply with the requirements for 'limited modification standard' as the supercharger is changed.

They also confirmed that any other third party pulley reduction kit will also not be allowed. Which I was already resigned to anyway.

I'm pretty sure there will be some phone calls between the Targa organisers and BMW over the next few weeks on this one!!!

Stu

GOGADGET · Nov 2nd, 2004, 03:34 AM

What a load of B

ll

cks....it's showroom Standard from JCW Garage.

n00b · Nov 2nd, 2004, 04:22 AM

If that's the case then STi's shouldn't be allowed, technically those are factory modified cars albeit fitted at the factory whereas JCW is at the dealer. (I think there's some flaw with my argument but stuff it for the time being).

7nut · Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:37 AM

wasn't there a works cooper in the event a couple of years ago??

n00b · Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:40 AM

Yeah the yellow one, it's a MC. Belongs to Craig Williams (is that right?) It even had 18" on..

Another thing, why are those modded GT-R's and Evo's are allowed to run but the JCW isn't?

StuJones · Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:53 AM

Craig Williams has run a stock Cooper for the last few years. In its category he is a class winner.

the main issue comes down to factory and non-factory modifications. They are very strict on the EVO's, GTR's and STI's but as long as they are factory and production releases then OK. They disqualified the third place getter this year as their GTR was found post event to have modified boost and other illegal mods. Problem I think with JCW is that its dealer fitted not factory, but I know BMW have a different view on this.

Its an international event and the rules are very tight.

Stu

Todd! · Nov 2nd, 2004, 06:30 AM

Craig Williams has a Cooper Works... one of the very early ones built by the garage and imported.

He had the first JCW car in the country...

It was in the first issue of speed from memory.. has a full cage etc... nice car, and it was on 18's last time I saw it as he is the owner of the magwheel warehouse or similar that imports MAK rims etc.

He also has a DS/(W?) MCS with a set of 19" Breyton rims on it... but they change them frequently...

Todd

warped · Nov 2nd, 2004, 06:33 AM

It's interesting how the different events have different interpretations of the same vehicle / modification

From reading the Mt Buller sub regs it would seem that JCW 'might' be OK ... Section C 02-04-01 states '... superchargers ... unless they were fitted as standard, in which case they are free, provided that the replacement item is from the same period as the original item and fits the original manifolding. However, the remainderof the induction system must remain as original'.

My reading of this is that the JCW supercharger swap would be OK as long as the JCW kit was available in the build year of the car but any changes to airbox would not be allowed.

How close are the Tassie regs to this?

minigolf · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:30 AM

I call John McEnroe on these organisers ... "Surely you can't be serious!"

Man, that's a bit rich, if you get a factory warranty then surely it should be a goer.

MickyD · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:41 AM

take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser

StuJones · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:46 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by warped

It's interesting how the different events have different interpretations of the same vehicle / modification

From reading the Mt Buller sub regs it would seem that JCW 'might' be OK ... Section C 02-04-01 states '... superchargers ... unless they were fitted as standard, in which case they are free, provided that the replacement item is from the same period as the original item and fits the original manifolding. However, the remainderof the induction system must remain as original'.

My reading of this is that the JCW supercharger swap would be OK as long as the JCW kit was available in the build year of the car but any changes to airbox would not be allowed.

How close are the Tassie regs to this?

Events like East Coast Targa, Mt Buller and even Rally Tas are run under local CAMS rules whilst Targa Tas being an international event is run under FIA regulations. Also they get a full field or even over subsribed so they can be choosey.

The regs for Mt Buller and East Coast Targa are almost identical and I expect the scrutineering to be as "formal". They are not in the business of making it difficult for entrants. In theory our CAI was illegal for East Coast but as it was likely to make lick all difference to the results they did not police it.

StuJones · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:47 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by MickyD

take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser

Ahh thats a big risk. If they want to they have the power to impound your car, strip it down and measure all components and then give you the bill for the work!!!

robbo mcs · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:51 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by MickyD

take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser

Hi,

Unfortunately, I don't think that is the case in Targa Tassie. Last year they were incredibly tough on scrutineering. A friend on mine turned up with the same car as he had used in previous years. He paid up his entry etc, but was failed due to a non-conforming air-box

Cheers

Robbo

robbo mcs · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:58 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by dairyboy

Yeah the yellow one, it's a MC. Belongs to Craig Williams (is that right?) It even had 18" on..

Another thing, why are those modded GT-R's and Evo's are allowed to run but the JCW isn't?

Hi,

Due to the quirks of the regs, a JCW cooper might be fine, but an S could be failed. There are certain things that you are allowed to modify, depending on category. For instance in LMS (the highest level of mods) brakes are completely free, including ducts, you can de-cat the car, and do anything to the exhaust, but changing the supercharger is not allowed. A non turbo or supercharged 2WD is allowed the most latitude for mods, so that is how the cooper may get away with it.

Also, the amount of mods allowed varies to some degree on the age of the car. The regs are strictest for late moderns, ie post 98. That is why some early model GT-R's etc get away with more.

What is frustrating is that I don't want to win the comp, and never would even be competitive, despite mods. I just want to compete and have fun. However, in order to be accepted, I am resigned to the fact that I am going to have to put my pulley / air-box / headers and cat back to stock. This is annoying, but not really a big deal, and will take around 1-2 days work. I am sure we will still have a huge amount of fun with a stock pulley

Cheers

Robbo

CanberraCooperS · Nov 2nd, 2004, 09:15 AM

In my mind this BITES!!!!! but have come to expect this from the organisers... they are overly picky and have always favoured local content... hence why they allow certain mods to certain monaro's.. a few years back they didnt even allow Subaru (Primerily Possum Bourne (RIP)) but allowed toyota to run the GT4. this event although being Australias primary road event is a farce!! the regulations change from year to year and are not consistant!

eltel · Nov 2nd, 2004, 10:28 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Red&blackS

Craig Williams has a Cooper Works... one of the very early ones built by the garage and imported.

He had the first JCW car in the country...

Todd

I'm pretty sure that he has the first privately owned MINI ever to arrive in the country.

eltel

JCWMCS · Nov 2nd, 2004, 12:37 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by StuJones

Just got confirmation from the organisers of Targa Tasmania that JCW Kits are an illegal modification. Any cars that enter with JCW kits will not be accepted

They have just rejected the Queensland Sherrin Team entry on this basis.
Stu

TASMINIA accepts JCW Kits and any other kit you might like to use.

snoopy · Nov 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM

This is a load of $hit, someone please define “showroom” and “factory” for me?

Both these terms are very loose in there meaning. Eg BMW had to get ADR compliance on the JCW car before they can sell it. This means they can modify the vehicle (eg install the JCW kit) before it is registered for the first time in this country. If they did not have ADR’s BMW could not modify the vehicle before the registered/sold it (they would break the law and Feds might get upset with them).

Thus to me a JCW car is showroom car, as the it delivered with the JCW from the MFG.

Now for the factory, what is a factory? Is it the engine factory (Brazil), the assemble factory (Oxford), the import inspection center (Custom bond area), or the dealer workshop. With most cars being build by outsourcing the concept of a factory is gray. Also what about the 2005 MINI, will the LSD have to fitted in Brazil for it to be ok ?????

irsa76 · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:53 PM

I understand that in theory, a car built to FIA Group N specs should be able to compete. The permitted changes for Group N are very small compared to some of the cars that actually compete. However, unless they have changed their mind on this matter, no Group N car has ever actually competed. Neal Bates Cerlica GT4 wasa Group N car but I belive it was modified to suit the regs at the time. At least they now require some saftey equipment!

StuJones · Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:59 PM

The aim of road Targa's is to showcase production vehicles both modern and classic, for that reason race cars (group N, etc) are not allowed. You cannot use a stripped shell track car to compete. Basically you are only allowed to remove interior components for fitting of safety gear, etc.

I think this will end up being a detailed discussion between BMW/MINI and Targa organisers Octagon!!!

Nov 2nd, 2004, 03:23 AM	#1
StuJones my second passion, a tin! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cronulla, NSW Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 733 Offline	Targa Tasmania says no to JCW Kits Just got confirmation from the organisers of Targa Tasmania that JCW Kits are an illegal modification. Any cars that enter with JCW kits will not be accepted They have just rejected the Queensland Sherrin Team entry on this basis. JCW is not 'showroom standard' and also does not comply with the requirements for 'limited modification standard' as the supercharger is changed. They also confirmed that any other third party pulley reduction kit will also not be allowed. Which I was already resigned to anyway. I'm pretty sure there will be some phone calls between the Targa organisers and BMW over the next few weeks on this one!!! Stu 2002 BRG MCS with more mods than can remember The thieves choice in race cars 2005 BEP MCS stock standard and staying that way

Nov 2nd, 2004, 03:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
GOGADGET All Worked Up Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Location: Location Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 2,669 Offline	What a load of B ll cks....it's showroom Standard from JCW Garage. GETTING ALL RALLYED UP and a little bit sideways

Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
StuJones my second passion, a tin! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cronulla, NSW Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 733 Offline	Craig Williams has run a stock Cooper for the last few years. In its category he is a class winner. the main issue comes down to factory and non-factory modifications. They are very strict on the EVO's, GTR's and STI's but as long as they are factory and production releases then OK. They disqualified the third place getter this year as their GTR was found post event to have modified boost and other illegal mods. Problem I think with JCW is that its dealer fitted not factory, but I know BMW have a different view on this. Its an international event and the rules are very tight. Stu 2002 BRG MCS with more mods than can remember The thieves choice in race cars 2005 BEP MCS stock standard and staying that way

Nov 2nd, 2004, 06:30 AM	#7 (permalink)
Todd! Boy who made the wolf cry Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Geelong, Vic, Aus Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 10,450 Offline	Craig Williams has a Cooper Works... one of the very early ones built by the garage and imported. He had the first JCW car in the country... It was in the first issue of speed from memory.. has a full cage etc... nice car, and it was on 18's last time I saw it as he is the owner of the magwheel warehouse or similar that imports MAK rims etc. He also has a DS/(W?) MCS with a set of 19" Breyton rims on it... but they change them frequently... Todd PROJECT POLARIS - Die Wiedergeburt eines kultautos

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
minigolf Blue is the colour! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Canberra, Australia Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 13,849 Offline	I call John McEnroe on these organisers ... "Surely you can't be serious!" Man, that's a bit rich, if you get a factory warranty then surely it should be a goer. Sabine Schmitz: Fear disturbs your concentration.

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Nov 2nd, 2004, 04:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
n00b Twincharge??? My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2004 Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 2,283 Offline	If that's the case then STi's shouldn't be allowed, technically those are factory modified cars albeit fitted at the factory whereas JCW is at the dealer. (I think there's some flaw with my argument but stuff it for the time being).

Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:37 AM	#4 (permalink)
7nut MINI2 Regular Join Date: Sep 2004 Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 69 Offline	wasn't there a works cooper in the event a couple of years ago??

Nov 2nd, 2004, 05:40 AM	#5 (permalink)
n00b Twincharge??? My Classifieds Join Date: Jun 2004 Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 2,283 Offline	Yeah the yellow one, it's a MC. Belongs to Craig Williams (is that right?) It even had 18" on.. Another thing, why are those modded GT-R's and Evo's are allowed to run but the JCW isn't?

Nov 2nd, 2004, 06:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
warped JCW No. 1459 Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Neutral Bay, Sydney Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 869 Offline	It's interesting how the different events have different interpretations of the same vehicle / modification From reading the Mt Buller sub regs it would seem that JCW 'might' be OK ... Section C 02-04-01 states '... superchargers ... unless they were fitted as standard, in which case they are free, provided that the replacement item is from the same period as the original item and fits the original manifolding. However, the remainderof the induction system must remain as original'. My reading of this is that the JCW supercharger swap would be OK as long as the JCW kit was available in the build year of the car but any changes to airbox would not be allowed. How close are the Tassie regs to this?

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
MickyD MINI2 Master Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 3,628 Offline	take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
StuJones my second passion, a tin! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cronulla, NSW Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 733 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by warped It's interesting how the different events have different interpretations of the same vehicle / modification From reading the Mt Buller sub regs it would seem that JCW 'might' be OK ... Section C 02-04-01 states '... superchargers ... unless they were fitted as standard, in which case they are free, provided that the replacement item is from the same period as the original item and fits the original manifolding. However, the remainderof the induction system must remain as original'. My reading of this is that the JCW supercharger swap would be OK as long as the JCW kit was available in the build year of the car but any changes to airbox would not be allowed. How close are the Tassie regs to this? Events like East Coast Targa, Mt Buller and even Rally Tas are run under local CAMS rules whilst Targa Tas being an international event is run under FIA regulations. Also they get a full field or even over subsribed so they can be choosey. The regs for Mt Buller and East Coast Targa are almost identical and I expect the scrutineering to be as "formal". They are not in the business of making it difficult for entrants. In theory our CAI was illegal for East Coast but as it was likely to make lick all difference to the results they did not police it. 2002 BRG MCS with more mods than can remember The thieves choice in race cars 2005 BEP MCS stock standard and staying that way

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:47 AM	#12 (permalink)
StuJones my second passion, a tin! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cronulla, NSW Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 733 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by MickyD take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser Ahh thats a big risk. If they want to they have the power to impound your car, strip it down and measure all components and then give you the bill for the work!!! 2002 BRG MCS with more mods than can remember The thieves choice in race cars 2005 BEP MCS stock standard and staying that way

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
robbo mcs Track Addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sydney Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 2,620 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by MickyD take the badges off, change the intercooler cover, and no-one would be the wiser Hi, Unfortunately, I don't think that is the case in Targa Tassie. Last year they were incredibly tough on scrutineering. A friend on mine turned up with the same car as he had used in previous years. He paid up his entry etc, but was failed due to a non-conforming air-box Cheers Robbo Mods: GO MADDIE and SPARKY!

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
robbo mcs Track Addict Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Sydney Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 2,620 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by dairyboy Yeah the yellow one, it's a MC. Belongs to Craig Williams (is that right?) It even had 18" on.. Another thing, why are those modded GT-R's and Evo's are allowed to run but the JCW isn't? Hi, Due to the quirks of the regs, a JCW cooper might be fine, but an S could be failed. There are certain things that you are allowed to modify, depending on category. For instance in LMS (the highest level of mods) brakes are completely free, including ducts, you can de-cat the car, and do anything to the exhaust, but changing the supercharger is not allowed. A non turbo or supercharged 2WD is allowed the most latitude for mods, so that is how the cooper may get away with it. Also, the amount of mods allowed varies to some degree on the age of the car. The regs are strictest for late moderns, ie post 98. That is why some early model GT-R's etc get away with more. What is frustrating is that I don't want to win the comp, and never would even be competitive, despite mods. I just want to compete and have fun. However, in order to be accepted, I am resigned to the fact that I am going to have to put my pulley / air-box / headers and cat back to stock. This is annoying, but not really a big deal, and will take around 1-2 days work. I am sure we will still have a huge amount of fun with a stock pulley Cheers Robbo Mods: GO MADDIE and SPARKY!

Nov 2nd, 2004, 09:15 AM	#15 (permalink)
CanberraCooperS Gone Old School Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Canberra Local Time: 07:33 AM Posts: 746 Offline	In my mind this BITES!!!!! but have come to expect this from the organisers... they are overly picky and have always favoured local content... hence why they allow certain mods to certain monaro's.. a few years back they didnt even allow Subaru (Primerily Possum Bourne (RIP)) but allowed toyota to run the GT4. this event although being Australias primary road event is a farce!! the regulations change from year to year and are not consistant!

Nov 2nd, 2004, 10:28 AM	#16 (permalink)
eltel MINIstry of Fun Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eastern Suburbs, Mel Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 1,566 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Red&blackS Craig Williams has a Cooper Works... one of the very early ones built by the garage and imported. He had the first JCW car in the country... Todd I'm pretty sure that he has the first privately owned MINI ever to arrive in the country. eltel

Nov 2nd, 2004, 12:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
JCWMCS - - - - - - - - - Join Date: Oct 2004 Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 168 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by StuJones Just got confirmation from the organisers of Targa Tasmania that JCW Kits are an illegal modification. Any cars that enter with JCW kits will not be accepted They have just rejected the Queensland Sherrin Team entry on this basis. Stu TASMINIA accepts JCW Kits and any other kit you might like to use.

Nov 2nd, 2004, 01:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
snoopy MINI2 Master Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: au Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 1,149 Offline	This is a load of $hit, someone please define “showroom” and “factory” for me? Both these terms are very loose in there meaning. Eg BMW had to get ADR compliance on the JCW car before they can sell it. This means they can modify the vehicle (eg install the JCW kit) before it is registered for the first time in this country. If they did not have ADR’s BMW could not modify the vehicle before the registered/sold it (they would break the law and Feds might get upset with them). Thus to me a JCW car is showroom car, as the it delivered with the JCW from the MFG. Now for the factory, what is a factory? Is it the engine factory (Brazil), the assemble factory (Oxford), the import inspection center (Custom bond area), or the dealer workshop. With most cars being build by outsourcing the concept of a factory is gray. Also what about the 2005 MINI, will the LSD have to fitted in Brazil for it to be ok ?????

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
irsa76 MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Queanbeyan, Australia Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 5 Offline	I understand that in theory, a car built to FIA Group N specs should be able to compete. The permitted changes for Group N are very small compared to some of the cars that actually compete. However, unless they have changed their mind on this matter, no Group N car has ever actually competed. Neal Bates Cerlica GT4 wasa Group N car but I belive it was modified to suit the regs at the time. At least they now require some saftey equipment!

Nov 2nd, 2004, 07:59 PM	#20 (permalink)
StuJones my second passion, a tin! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cronulla, NSW Local Time: 06:33 AM Posts: 733 Offline	The aim of road Targa's is to showcase production vehicles both modern and classic, for that reason race cars (group N, etc) are not allowed. You cannot use a stripped shell track car to compete. Basically you are only allowed to remove interior components for fitting of safety gear, etc. I think this will end up being a detailed discussion between BMW/MINI and Targa organisers Octagon!!! 2002 BRG MCS with more mods than can remember The thieves choice in race cars 2005 BEP MCS stock standard and staying that way

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