[GOGADGET]

Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewH

.........."I reckon a big part of the road safety problem could be solved by removing all the trees and power poles that are growing/installed right at the edge of the road. Humans a fallible, we all make mistakes. Why should a small mistake cost your life because you hit a tree that was allowed to grow too close to the edge of the road or a power pole that a utility company was too lazy to put somewhere else?"

I couldn't agree more with the statment above, it would have to be one of the easisest ways of cutting down road fatalitys. I'm not saying it is the only way but definatly a good starting point.

[play fife]

Quote: Originally Posted by Red&blackS

I dont want to be the one who says it man, but being in the same situation as you were a few months ago... werent you the one who stacked when he was criving too fast around a round about??

I think this is an example of what they are trying to teach us:

LIFE PRESERVATION.

Todd

Todd, yeah it was me that stacked a few months ago

Didnt harm anyone else & lucky no harm done to me, just my bank account.

Since that accident Todd ive learnt alot, dont over-estimate what 4 tyres can do on the road.......mini's might be good at handerling but when your not so experienced like most drivers on the road things can get messy with speed......i sure know now.

Lesson learnt.

Daniel

Ps: Hey Todd when you get off your P plates ? ........i get off em on the 15/02/05.

[Todd!]

Im off - 23/01/05.

In Vic you have to have your P Plates for 3 years, but we are not speed limited at all. We do however, have a power to weight restriction of 125kw/tonne and a 0.0 BAC at all times.

The MCS is inside that.

My birthday is in September, but my folks were hell bent on me getting my license once I finished School. I kinda wish I had waited til after uni to get my MCS, because I consumed way too much time on Mini2! I wanted it too much

Todd

[stevesmini]

does that mean P plates wont be allowed to drive cooper S's???

[StuJones]

Quote: Originally Posted by robbo mcs

You can't simply categorise cars as acceptable or not based upon the number of cylinders and turbo/superchargers etc. They should make a judgement on each car, based upon the individual circumstances, eg power to weight, safety features etc.

Cheers

Robbo

They tried the same stupid game in NSW with motorbikes a few years ago. P's had to be no more than 250cc, then it was a kw measure, and then the manufactures just made insanly quick 125cc bikes . Your never going to distract young drivers from powerful vehicles, its like moths to a light

I agree, proper training and repeat testing. Hell knows I should be retested, I'm a **** driver

[Todd!]

Quote: Originally Posted by stevesmini

does that mean P plates wont be allowed to drive cooper S's???

In Vic, the Cooper S is LEGAL, so I am OK!

Todd

[IML337]

I think the talk of P platers being banned from V8 and forced induction cars is just that - it's not a practical way of achieveing what the Government wants to achieve.

A good example is the 65kW Mk III VW Golf Turbo diesel....

I'm sure if it goes ahead, it will have a power/weight ratio as Vic does

[CanberraCooperS]

It seems the Goverments of this Country are incapable of being pro-active. Rather than preventing the bull from leaving the paddock... they are continually chasing it to get it back in.
This is all utter crap and the reality is that imposing restrictions will only cause more accidents as KIDS REBEL!!!! they will as others have said above... grab the keys to mum/dads higher powered cars and get there mates and kill them selves. If you look at all the ones you hear about on the news there are always 3 to 4 people in the car. (Thats where the problem lies in my mind) I know when i was young that we all do stupid things with mates in the car. I could be wrong but i think its far more common to see accidents with multiple young people in the car.
I was reading in the AGE newspaper on the weekend that the largest growing concern in Victoria is the 40% increase in Young Female drink driving charges handed out. i think the stats actually showed Males down 7% and Females up 43% for drink driving.
My partners freinds are all on there P's and well they are all absolute mad *******s behind the wheel, Ive seen them crash regularly and a couple go DUI etc... STUPID!!! They have no idea what they are doing as they have not had any decent education on driving.

The licence is to easy to get... they should have to do something very similar to the Stay Upright course they have with bikes in the ACT.

I admit its to late for those mongorel drivers already on the road that dont have half a split pea for a brain, but why are all the goverments taking so long to do something.. are they expecting to get some federal funding to fix the driver education system... PFFFFFFT The various STATE Governments of this slack arsed country we live in need to do something NOW... Take a stand and stop killing our young drivers through lack of driver education and training!!!!

[StuJones]

I love it when Giles takes those pills

All pretty true though

[CanberraCooperS]

hahaha LOOPY LOOOPY LOOOOPY....

Nah im pasionate about this cause my partner is just off his P's and I see alot more of this foolish driving than I care to when around his mates..

Ive been a good influence on his mates and have shown them alot of things but its just painfull when they say, but they dont teach us that, or we never knew etc.

Either way somthing has to be done

[MickyD]

As Robbo has already said, banning particular TYPES of engines etc is not the way to go.... it's legal to drive an M3, or an XR6, but not legal to drive my cousins 253 V8 VH commodore, that wouldn't pull the skin off wet custard.

I think part of getting your licence they should strap kids into that thing they have in europe, it's a chair on a ramp that rolls down and stops suddenly to simulate a 30 km/h impact so people can see just how much it hurts at even such a low speed. maybe then people will think about the consequences....

[AndrewH]

Yeah but at the end of the day none of this training, restriction of engine power, etc will stop the rush of testosterone to the brain that makes us all do stupid things. I know, I've been sitting there and thought nah bugger this and put peddle to the metal when I shouldn't have and I certainly should have known better. I've been driving since I was 8 years old and had the best training that anyone could have - out in a paddock in an old bomb but I still make bad decisions - we all do at some point.

The thing is that at the end of the day people are going to make stupid decisions that are going to put them at risk. The trick is to minimise as far as possible the consequences of those stupid decisions - engineer the driver and their decisions out of the equation. This is exactly what has happened on the race track. Why don't race drivers usually die when they crash? One thing is the cars themselves but the second thing is that they come to a stop over a period of time that's not going to scramble their brains.

A couple of European countries (namely Sweden) have adopted what is know as the Vision Zero concept (ie the vision of zero road fatalities). One element of this idea is that they look at road infrastructure and say how can we make a hypothetical fatal accident along this stretch of road a survivable one? They do this by redesigning road curvatures, installing briffen wire barriers (known in the biking fraternity as cheese cutters), removing hard/fixed obstacles etc etc. So when some dopy kid comes along and overcooks it they get out alive once it's all over.

I was thinking about this the other day when I was driving down the Home Hwy and it was absolutely bucketing down and most people had pulled over. Because of the way this particular road (between Sydney and Canberra at least) is designed, even if someone had been stupid enough to be going too fast and crashed, they would have more than likely walked away because there is not a lot to actually hit and when there is, there are decent barriers.

We can do a vision zero type idea this in this country - it's just a question of having the will and motivation.

I'm passionate about this debate too but from the perspective of knowing that a lot more can be done to solve it than simplistically pointing the finger at one particular group or another and telling them that they are the problem - in my view, this is a totally gutless way of trying to address the issue.

[minigolf]

You're right Andrew, but it wins votes as it removes the blame from the majority of people. "Oh, I'm not a P-plater, therefore I must be a good driver."

[Todd!]

Good point Lima!!

All the senior citizens sitting around going "Bluddy P platers! What is their problem, I was doin 80 in a 100 zone last week and a kid over took me way too fast, so impatient!! They are hazards to the road"

Todd

[KGB]

Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewH

Oh here we go again - more youth bashing - I think it's becoming a national past time.

NO.

But since L platers dont have a licence it might be a good time to teach them something
actually useful on the roads.

All this emotional clap trap is sickening. Simply put, experience is gained through practice
and MISTAKES, makes sense to try to impart as much experience as possible in safe and controlled conditions. Not on the road...

[KGB]

Quote: Originally Posted by MickyD

I think part of getting your licence they should strap kids into that thing they have in europe, it's a chair on a ramp that rolls down and stops suddenly to simulate a 30 km/h impact so people can see just how much it hurts at even such a low speed. maybe then people will think about the consequences....

Absolutely true Micky.

Consequence; unique human concept designed by evolution to keep us alive via a feedback system which recognises 'danger', processes it with 'experience' and provides
a platform for better decision making.......In other words; oooh that hurt/cost last time,
might not do it again/same way this time....

Remove consequence and you remove the need to make decisions and assume responsibilty.....blamelss society here we go again....

[AndrewH]

Quote: Originally Posted by KGB

Remove consequence and you remove the need to make decisions and assume responsibilty.....blamelss society here we go again....

I understand what you’re saying and it is relevant in the context of training (provided it doesn't result in overconfidence which some research seems to suggest it does) but, on the other hand, when your first real world experience of consequence is death, all you end up contributing to is natural selection.

The route that we are heading down now with restrictions on young drivers will ultimately filter through to the entire driving community. Technology is being developed now that will allow individual drivers to be continually monitored, controlled, tracked and assessed whether they like it or not. Sure we might end up with safer roads but what is the cost? Do we really want to live in a society where the individual must submit to the "borg" mentality?

[KGB]

Quote: Originally Posted by AndrewH

I understand what you’re saying and it is relevant in the context of training (provided it doesn't result in overconfidence which some research seems to suggest it does) but, on the other hand, when your first real world experience of consequence is death, all you end up contributing to is natural selection.

The route that we are heading down now with restrictions on young drivers will ultimately filter through to the entire driving community. Technology is being developed now that will allow individual drivers to be continually monitored, controlled, tracked and assessed whether they like it or not. Sure we might end up with safer roads but what is the cost? Do we really want to live in a society where the individual must submit to the "borg" mentality?

Andrew,

Cant agree with your overconfidence point. Current (since time began) level of education to obtain a drivers licence is a dark comedy. If we educate more thoroughly and effectively with deeper driver training, drivers would be aware of the consequences
of driving 'badly' in all its forms. We'd minimise the occurence of your natural selection theory. The most overwhelming research suggests that when you make a big enough mistake in a car you crash, let's address issues from the ground up.

Agree with you on Big brother technology (not Channel 10!), and it seems insurance companies are the loudest proclaimers of it. Watch out in 2010 if your new car's black box records that you collided with that other vehicle at 62 in a 60 zone.....or that you did not apply the brakes with a force signifcant enough to prove that you were at some arbitrary level of attentativeness or SKILL LEVEL....sorry couldn't resist...

Enjoy our relatively 'free' motoring while you can...

[AndrewH]

Quote: Originally Posted by KGB

Agree with you on Big brother technology (not Channel 10!), and it seems insurance companies are the loudest proclaimers of it. Watch out in 2010 if your new car's black box records that you collided with that other vehicle at 62 in a 60 zone.....or that you did not apply the brakes with a force signifcant enough to prove that you were at some arbitrary level of attentativeness or SKILL LEVEL....sorry couldn't resist

Don't get me wrong, I do agree about skill level and experience being important just that there are more important things that we should be focusing on that can benefit all road users not just novice ones.

I'm a policy advisor in transport technology and while there is some really cool stuff coming down the pipe, some of the technology aimed at addressing issues like road safety is just plain disturbing and begs the question, is it really worth it.

[minigolf]

Quote: Originally Posted by KGB

...Current (since time began) level of education to obtain a drivers licence is a dark comedy...

I'm not so sure. My mum's story of getting her licence in 1964 was a very gruelling episode.

Policeman: Oh, don't you already have you licence Mary?
Mum: No
Ploiceman: Here you go, that'll be £5 thanks.
Mum: Great, thanks.

I mean, imagine if she didn't know the local copper, she might have actually been required to get in a car! Blardy hell, if that happened she might have had to drive it as well.