CVT topic in Canada

[xviper]

Well, it's been almost 4 years since I've posted last in this forum. It's taken that long for me to finally acquire my first Mini - 2005 Mini Cooper CVT, 46K km. This section of the forum has been pretty quiet. Just curious if anyone's home.
Reading the Mini forums, I see a lot of imformation about CVT failures. A friend, who used to own one, told me that when he approached the local Calgary Mini dealer about fluid changes, he was told BMW does NOT do any fluid changes on them and sent him packing.
What has been the Canadian experience lately, with regards to getting Mini dealers to acknowledge that there is a problem and that maintenance on the CVT is a smart thing to do?
Has anyone had a fluid change done on the earlier models of this car?
How's the tranny holding up for you?
I'm going to try and get some of the BMW fluid and do the change myself. I understand some of the US dealers are charging upwards of $400.00 to do a CVT fluid change and some of them don't even do it correctly.

[beken]

There's a few Canadians who still lurk around here. I have a few friends who have the CVT transmission on their MINIs. Though there seems to be a lot of talk about the CVT failures, I haven't actually seen one failed.

My neighbour's 2005 MINI Cooper did have some of the "rubber band" effect while backing uphill out of her driveway when the car is cold, but a software reflash awhile ago seemed to have solved that.

I really enjoyed playing with the paddle shifters on her car. I'm of the opinion that if you don't flog your MINI too hard, the transmission is probably fine.

However, the car being of 2005 vintage, the fuel filter is not on the service schedule and probably should be replaced. My neighbour, being somewhat car maintenance challenged, had her fuel pump die on her to the replacement cost of around $800 (labour included). So make sure you take good maintenance care of your car and it should last a long time.

[xviper]

Nice to see a neighbor from BC still here.
I went to the one and only Mini dealer here in Calgary and they told me that my CVT service is a long way off. It's getting close to 50K km, so from what I've read on this and other forums, it's time. Mini Crowfoot tells me that when the time comes, it's going to cost around $500.00 to do the fluid change and their parts dept. will NOT sell me the fluid. I wouldn't trust them to do the work anyway.
I found a small shop that services BMWs and Minis who will do it for me for about $300.00. The guy used to work for the BMW dealership and he describes the fluid change exactly as I've read on these forums.
I've always done my own work on my cars including clutch jobs, superchargers, diff replacements and all maintenance. This withholding of a specialized fluid simply has me disliking BMW and Mini dealers so much more.
Thanks for the tip on the fuel filter. I think I can get that part and do it myself.
BTW, the CVT on my Mini appears to be working flawlessly. I just want to keep it that way. I don't flog the Mini at all. I have my other car built for that.

[beken]

From what I understand, the CVT is supposed to be oiled for life, but whenever you have a bunch of moving mechanical parts, those kind of claims are always dubious. Also, dealerships usually recommend services above and beyond the manufacturer recommendations. In fact, I don't think the service manual even mentions CVT maintenance.

Given that the CVT transmissions are now over 5 years old, it probably is prudent to check the fluids and make sure nothing is amiss. If you have a non-dealer MINI service person you trust, you could probably save a bundle. However, at least in Vancouver, the dealers here compete rather vigorously with the aftermarket maintenance places by offering reduced pricing for out of warranty MINI owners and generally, I feel I'm getting fair value from the dealer.

From what I've seen, those who don't flog their CVTs have been very satisfied (and quiet) about the reliability of their cars. I expect the majority of owners are like that. MINI owners are a rather vocal bunch when things go wrong.

Another thing not mentioned, but is in your service manual, is a brake fluid flush every two years regardless of mileage. This actually is the remedy to brake fade. A lot of people are getting JCW brakes, bigger brakes and experimenting with pads, but clean brake fluid is all that's really needed. The dealer charges $100 for that here, which also includes fluid. I suspect an aftermarket shop might come in maybe $20 less. But I trust the dealer here enough to feel they won't take any shortcuts such as use a cheaper brake fluid, or forget to reattach ABS sensors etc. If I can get brake fluid that's better and cheaper (like AMSOIL racing fluid instead of MINI/BMW), the dealer would just charge me for the labour.

[xviper]

I just dropped off the Mini at the shop to get the fluid change done tomorrow. Talking to the shop owner, I asked him what his experience was with CVTs grenading. He told me something very encouraging. He said that in his experience with Minis at the Mini dealership and in his own shop, he has seen 2 CVTs that went south. Compared to this, he said he's personally seen 200 of the first gen 5 speeds grenade. Granted, there are a lot more 5 speeds than there ever were CVTs, he still agreed with me when I told him I felt this whole CVT "problem" is blown way out of proportion and when the odd one does go, it gets posted on the internet, resulting in an unrealistic representation of the actual situation. The internet does tend to inspire and propagate paranoia and anal retentiveness. When 5 people say they know of a CVT that blew up, it's more than likely that it's the same one that everyone heard of. Put it on the internet and it suddenly becomes 50.
With this fluid change (at the appropriate time), I'm hoping this transmission will continue to work well for a long time to come.

[beken]

I agree with you. The CVT issue is probably blown out of proportion, but I can't say. I don't actually own one myself.

I'm wondering if you've checked out the MINI club in Calgary. I've joined up with them for a few things in the past when I'm in Calgary or on drives to AMVIV. They're a great bunch of people and thought you might enjoy going on drives and doing MINI stuff with them. Highly recommended.

[xviper]

Quote: Originally Posted by beken (original)

I agree with you. The CVT issue is probably blown out of proportion, but I can't say. I don't actually own one myself.

I'm wondering if you've checked out the MINI club in Calgary. I've joined up with them for a few things in the past when I'm in Calgary or on drives to AMVIV. They're a great bunch of people and thought you might enjoy going on drives and doing MINI stuff with them. Highly recommended.

Just got back from the shop and the fluid change. The shop owner said the old tranny fluid was still OK and I did the change at the right time. If I had left it up to the Mini dealer, it may have been too late. As it is, he said I got myself a Mini that was in very, very good shape and it was a good purchase. Saved a pile of money by not buying at the Mini dealership.

As for the Calgary Mini club, yes, I know about them. I've had run-ins with a couple of them on these forums, one of whom is a Mini salesman at Crowfoot Mini. That's why I haven't been around here for a few years. I also hang out with some Mini guys (and former Mini guys) from my own car club group (variety of sports cars) and most of them mirror this same opinion. The few rotten apples spoil the bunch. None of us will affiliate with them. Thanks for pointing them out anyway.

[beken]

I know what you mean. There are two MINI dealerships here in the Vancouver area. The club here solicited sponsorship from both and they have been great. But a few years ago, one of the dealers wanted exclusive sponsorship and then wanted more control of what the club wanted to do. In time, the club started to fade and only a few core members stay involved. The other dealer remains a sponsor and is generally arm-length. They promote the club at the dealership by displaying club cards and from time to time provide goodies as door prizes for events. The club posts a banner on the website and gives mention at events.

I wouldn't want to join a car club that has policies influenced by a dealership. So I understand how you feel. At the same time, I think dealerships are feeling the heat to increase sales at a time when the economy has people delaying replacing their cars.

I'm getting the feeling that most car club type activities is on a bit of a down period right now anyways. Not too many car club activities happening the last couple of years.

Anyways, get out there and enjoy motoring. That's what it's all about anyways.

[Sejanus]

Quote: Originally Posted by xviper (original)

I just dropped off the Mini at the shop to get the fluid change done tomorrow. Talking to the shop owner, I asked him what his experience was with CVTs grenading. He told me something very encouraging. He said that in his experience with Minis at the Mini dealership and in his own shop, he has seen 2 CVTs that went south. Compared to this, he said he's personally seen 200 of the first gen 5 speeds grenade. Granted, there are a lot more 5 speeds than there ever were CVTs, he still agreed with me when I told him I felt this whole CVT "problem" is blown way out of proportion and when the odd one does go, it gets posted on the internet, resulting in an unrealistic representation of the actual situation. The internet does tend to inspire and propagate paranoia and anal retentiveness. When 5 people say they know of a CVT that blew up, it's more than likely that it's the same one that everyone heard of. Put it on the internet and it suddenly becomes 50.
With this fluid change (at the appropriate time), I'm hoping this transmission will continue to work well for a long time to come.

I started a thread on here "Tracking CVTs" http://www.mini2.com/forum/first-gen...king-cvts.html to try and overcome the problem of only hearing about CVTs that failed. The results were somewhat mixed since lots of people didn't check in after awhile, but it is worth noting that of the 30 or 40 cars we were tracking a few did report the total failure of their CVT, including myself (at 104,000 miles) and our longest surviving CVT which went at 194,000 miles. I suspect it's true that the manual transmissions had more problems, however, that isn't the key issue. The problem is that when CVT's fail they have to be replaced. I'm yet to hear of a single person who has managed to get a dealer or mechanic to repair one and the cost of replacing one is extremely expensive, 8-10,000 US dollars. Perhaps CVTs are a bit more fragile than other transmissions (I tend to think they are), perhaps not, but when they go the cost is very painful. When the warranty on my replacement CVT expires I will probably start car shopping so that I don't get hit like that again.

[xviper]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sejanus (original)

I started a thread on here "Tracking CVTs" http://www.mini2.com/forum/first-gen...king-cvts.html to try and overcome the problem of only hearing about CVTs that failed. The results were somewhat mixed since lots of people didn't check in after awhile, but it is worth noting that of the 30 or 40 cars we were tracking a few did report the total failure of their CVT, including myself (at 104,000 miles) and our longest surviving CVT which went at 194,000 miles. I suspect it's true that the manual transmissions had more problems, however, that isn't the key issue. The problem is that when CVT's fail they have to be replaced. I'm yet to hear of a single person who has managed to get a dealer or mechanic to repair one and the cost of replacing one is extremely expensive, 8-10,000 US dollars. Perhaps CVTs are a bit more fragile than other transmissions (I tend to think they are), perhaps not, but when they go the cost is very painful. When the warranty on my replacement CVT expires I will probably start car shopping so that I don't get hit like that again.

Yours was one of the many threads that I read on the subject and like many other CVT owners, those threads filled me with much concern. Of particular interest was the one report of a failure even though the owner did the fluid change every 30K miles.
What would have been interesting was to have had information as to the following:
1. What fluid change intervals had been followed? We all know that BMW originally never planned any fluid changes for the CVT for the life of the car. We also know that BMW has since re-considered this stupid notion although not all Mini dealers are aware of this.
2. When fluid changes were done, how was it done? We now know that there is a very specific way of doing it. You don't simply dump the fluid and push new fluid into it. There is a method to it involving temperature and bleeding procedure and final check and top up.
3. What fluid was used to do those changes? Other than the OEM fluid, we don't know what affect substitute fluids may have on this transmission.
4. How was the car driven? Have there been a history of hard starts where the driver mashed the gas before the transmission had a chance to actually engage "gear". I've noted on occasion, that if it's particularly cold outside, the tranny can take a second or two to "engage" and if one gave it gas prematurely, it would elevate rpm and then do a severe lurch when the tranny engaged.
5. Was the car operated predominantly in warmer climates where there may have been extended driving in extreme heat? We all know that vehicles operated under hot conditions or those involving towing, need transmission coolers. This CVT may be particularly suseptible to hot operating conditions.

I had the dealer print off the complete service history on my Mini. It seems I'm the second owner and the first owner had it serviced according to the maintenance schedule as dictated by the onboard service reminder. The fluid change I did was it's first and it was done using the OEM ESSO fluid and done by a BMW mechanic using the proper procedure as I have found on these forums. I understand the nature and function of a CVT transmission and I always wait for the transmission to engage gear before trying to accelerate off. I never give it heavy throttle right from a dead stop.
If I were to keep this car long enough to see the tranny fail, I would not replace it with a new one. If I couldn't find a good, used one, I would sell the car in parts to recoup some of my money. No point in putting in another bag of money that is worth more than what the car is.
I'm growing very fond of this car but I'm still uncertain as to whether or not I shall keep it for too long. It was an experiment to see if I could live with the Mini and if it would serve my needs. The plan was to sell it in a few months, along with my other car of 11 years (of which I am very fond of) and buy something that would take me well into my retirement. I've always worked on my cars at home and having the inability to buy 5L of ESSO fluid easily has really soured me on BMW products. Hence, my choice for my next long term car will be influenced by this whole experience.

[Sejanus]

All I can tell you is my own experience. The fluid on my CVT was replaced regularly (it's a standard part of the maintenance provided by the MINI dealership) and I don't think my driving style subjected it to any particular strain. There was some driving in warmer weather (100 degrees plus), but not all that much and when it failed it was a mild California December day in the upper '60s.

[beken]

Because CVT's use a reinforced rubber belt to manage the "gear" ratios, I would think the longevity can only be an estimate and that/those belt(s) need to be considered a wear and tear item. Metal cogs in a normal geared transmission are less likely to wear in the same way. Unfortunately, CVT manufacturers all claim they are lifetime.

Truth is, I'm dubious of any lifetime claims, especially CVTs. Nissan has gone all CVTs on their passenger car transmissions and I'm not sure they are lifetime reliable either. I don't know anybody who has kept their Nissans more than 10 years and not complained about having to fix a whole lot of stuff just to keep their cars running. So I would suspect the same with the MINI CVTs over the long run. Even geared automatic transmissions require service periodically. Change the transmission fluids and filters, tighten bands. Not sure there are bands to tighten in a CVT.

I've also heard of regular automatic transmissions blowing up after 6 or 7 years (especially old Chrysler transmission) so I wonder if MINI's CVT transmission failure ratio is much higher than others.

This is turning into an interesting discussion.

[xviper]

I've never seen pictures of the Mini CVT drive belt. Is it really rubber? I've heard once upon a time that it's some sort of metal belt and when it goes, shredded metal is all over the inside of the tranny.
It's interesting about the Nissan CVT story. I'll bet there are way more Nissan CVTs out there than there are Mini ones. I can't imagine that many disgruntled Nissan owners can be good for business. Now we see the new Honda CR-Z can be had with a CVT and it has become quite popular with the "green", sporty car crowd.
With "normal" automatic transmissions, I think the fluid is much overlooked for those who do not take their cars to the dealer for regular maintenance. It's not something that most people will do on their own at home and the cost of a complete, flush, change and new filter can put quite a dent on the average car owner's wallet. I talk to a lot of car owners with auto trannies who can't even remember the last time the fluid had been changed, if ever. I look after my elderly next door neighbour's mid-90 something Chrysler since her husband passed away. At that time, the car was getting on 10 years. It had never had a tranny fluid change. The car was still operating OK (low mileage). However, I doubt many people even keep their cars more than 10 years anymore. The new Mini hasn't been around quite long enough yet to see what happens as the 10 year mark arrives, but we've seen examples of them grenading already. I think these things are mileage sensitive and not so much time sensitive.
Mind you, quite a few of the early 5 sp. manuals have also blown up by now. With this sort of history, it's hard for anyone, even a Mini enthusiast to consider one as a permanent "keeper".
I like to think that I have a pretty good ear and feel for what my cars are doing and I'll be monitoring this car very closely as the hot summer driving months come upon us. With most auto trannies, I believe heat is one of the biggest enemies to their health. Does anyone know if the CVT has a tranny cooler? Perhaps adding one wouldn't be a bad idea if such a thing even exists.

Oops, just found the answer with a Google search ..........................
http://www.mini2.com/forum/first-gen...ini-not-s.html

It would seem the CVT does have some sort of cooler. Wonder if it actually does much to keep the temps down.

[beken]

They are steel belts, but coated in rubber or something that would dampen the noise. Maybe it is oil, but as oil heats up, it loses its dampening factor.

A pretty good article on CVTs is here.

CVT Transmission Pros and Cons

[Senior]

My 2005 Cooper non S has just under 60K km on it and the CVT has worked fine except for a few weeks ago when the battery was weak and the CVT shifted poorly. The dealer replaced battery and all was well again.

I too doubt the bad press the CVT gets but there is at least one source of refurbished CVTs for the Mini and that is Europeantransmissions and parts Inc.

You will note that on their opening page part way down they talk about the Mini CVT and claim it is one of the best. There is also a comment on the belts and as I recall replacement belts are around the $600 mark.

The manufacturer of the Mini CVT also has a great web site with a full description of oil change etc which is shown at 50K but local dealer says No.
The problem is mostly due the time required to do the change as it must be done very slowly tying up the hoast for the day. They simply would have to charge too much. So it leaves one wondering what one should do. The procedure shown does require a hoast as you must work from below.

I must say that I do like the CVT, I get great mileage, it does work best in winter if it is allowed a moment or two before taking off, and many cars are outfitted with CVT today, and I would like to hang on to the car for many more years.