[erazo]

The history of the Vette has its share of mistakes, missteps, and outright disasters, so it shouln't be used as an example, except as how NOT to allow marketeers and mediocre engineers muck about with a sports car concept.

Back to the Cooper S, I think it would be a good idea to produce a supercharged CVT, but it should have its own badge to distinguish it from the S. The Cooper name with the CVT is already a stretch, isn't it?

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by erazo
The Cooper name with the CVT is already a stretch, isn't it?

Why?

[BruceK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sejanus
...Why do so many manual drivers seem to regard this choice [automatic] as some sort automotive faux pas? It effects them in no possible way. Live and let live.

I don't want to sound like a manual transmission snob, but quite frankly an automatic transmission brings things down to the lowest common denominator -- i.e. any person who can drive, can drive an automatic, but it takes more knowledge and skill to drive a manual transmission.

Obviously, some people who know how to drive a manual transmission simply prefer an automatic (perhaps for frequent driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic). However, other people, and this is the vast majority of American drivers, choose automatic transmissions simply as a means to an end – a car serves their basic transportation needs and an automatic-equipped car is simpler to use. They don’t know, and they sure don’t care to learn how to drive a manual transmission car. They see no point in it whatsoever. They largely view driving as a necessity, a chore, and a task. Something just to get them from point A to point B.

At the opposite end of the spectrum are people who love to drive. And a manual transmission is the transmission of choice by these drivers. They know what an apex is, they understand heel and toe driving, they appreciate taking an engine to the redline before slipping it into the next gear. To them handling has nothing to do with how easy a car is to park outside the local Sears store, instead it is an appreciation of understanding the car’s capabilities and taking a turn and getting it ‘just right’.

Personally, I hope there is never an automatic Cooper S as I think that would cheapen the model. I can already hear the screams of protest. “How would my automatic Cooper S affect yours?” Consider this: the reason we prefer MINIs over other cars has a lot to do with how we see ourselves and how we see the car fitting into an automotive and social hierarchy. We all believe the MINI is something special. Sometimes we feel this for shared reasons, sometimes for uniquely personal reasons. To me, the S is the flagship of the range with the highest level of performance available in a factory-standard MINI and a 6-speed gearbox is integral to the performance task. In my opinion, an automatic S would be a compromise and weaken the performance concept.

As I said, we all see the MINI as different from the ordinary, it's fun, it’s unique, and for most of us it’s so much better than other cars on the market for a variety of reasons. But if we didn't care about the all of the attributes that make the MINI desirable, we'd be happy driving practical, boring, identical-looking transportation devices -- like Chevrolet Malibu’s.

Automatic-equipped Malibu’s.

[ScottG]

The whole idea of the MINI is to have options. Personalize and enjoy your motoring experience. Doesn't personalizing mean choosing manual or auto transmission, just as choosing a colored roof, stripes, chrome, aero kits, etc.?

Some of you sound like real close-minded snobs. The MINI is to be enjoyed. Why do you assume everyone must do it "your way" or "the way it's always been done?" I know Porsche snobs that are more understanding of the big picture.

Bruce seems to be more concerned about what people think of his Mini, with an auto S that might "cheapen the model" ? Here's a thought, make an auto S but call it a "C" or "X" etc. Who cares. The point is "does driving the MINI make you smile?" It sure does for me.

The only reason I bought a CVT, instead of an S was for practical reasons. My wife's carpel tunnel problems make it really painful for her to drive the stick on the S. I wanted the HP of the S, but
I love my wife more. The CVT will suit us fine, and will be getting some engine modification when the time is right.

[Basil]

Now, now Scott. Bruce already qualified that he didn't want to sound like a manual transmission snob. And he has already explained the many reason's why people pick auto cars for practicality (I'm one of them).

I'm not defending him, purely pointing out that the intention was not to flame anyone. It's a point of view.

Bruce doesn't want to see an auto version of the S. I personaly would like to see an SMG version at some time. to give that F1 touch and also bring a whole new market to the MINI segment.

Cheers

[AprilWhine]

Most cars have to fill more than one roll. The weekend toy that roams the backwoods twisty roads turns into the commuting grocery cart during the week. How much heavy traffic will you endure before switching to the automatic?

Personally, I'm getting an MCS with any version of automatic when it comes available, and putting a bud vase on the dash.

BTW, drove a Triumph for six years and am a very good stick driver.

[peter_II]

Both manual and automatich have advantages

automatic:
convinient in stop and go traffic an general in the city.

manual:
much better in the mountains.
5-10% less fuel consumption.
better performance with the same engine power.
possible to start the car with empty battery by pushing it.
no problem with getting towed.
At least in europe about 1000-2000$ cheaper on european cars

I personaly prefer manual shift, but I think everbody
should be able to spezify his options

[Basil]

Quote:

Originally posted by AprilWhine
........and putting a bud vase on the dash.

I daren't say a word......ha ha ha ha.

Funny, I was told today that the S looks like a VW....



PS. Only fill it half full of water though..or maybe get one of those gimble holders that can accomodate the G forces.......

[dsc68]

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceK


I don't want to sound like a manual transmission snob, but quite frankly an automatic transmission brings things down to the lowest common denominator -- i.e. any person who can drive, can drive an automatic, but it takes more knowledge and skill to drive a manual transmission.

So you've disconnected the ABS, CBC, EBD, ASC+T, and DSC systems then.

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by Basil
Now, now Scott. Bruce already qualified that he didn't want to sound like a manual transmission snob.

But he managed to anyway, the "cheapen the model" remark pretty much sums it up. I would point out to Bruce that most of the time driving is a necessity and often, yes a bit of a chore. That you can have fun driving or to drive just for the enjoyment of it is also possible. It is true that sometimes you can go out for a "fun" drive and then there is definantly some value for that extra feeling of control you get with a manual. But not only would it be impractical to maintain a separate car (for most of us anyway) for just those occasions, it wouldn't be of much help to you in trying to extract some fun from your daily commute. I want an auto(CVT) to make the daily run and my ventures into notorious Bay Area traffic more pleasant, but I also want a car that handles well, has a bit of kick to it, looks cool and has the great history of the MINI. These are some of the same reasons I've driven a classic Mustang for so many years instead of getting some kind of more practical econobox. A CVT S would allow me to enjoy most those aspects without the negatives that I feel accompany a manual transmission. Would I lose out on a bit of the control and feel of the driving experience? Probably, (although personally I feel that extra control is overstated) but I would have a car that would better suit both my practical needs, comfort and still let me have a blast when I got to an open or twisty stretch of road. Unfortunately, folks like Bruce (and many others who are far more scornful than Bruce) would not want that to happen because it would upset the "automotive and social hierarchy" As Scott said, it doesn't have to be called an S if that is too much for the manual purists' sensibilities, but it would be nice to have the rest of the S package (including looks, and the MINI name)available for those of us with a different set of "motoring" priorities.

[BruceK]

Quote:

Originally posted by dsc68
So you've disconnected the ABS, CBC, EBD, ASC+T, and DSC systems then.

Nah, they seem to work just fine with a manual transmission.



I knew there'd be post like this. The implication seems to be that it is somehow hypocritical to want to change gears manually, while enjoying the potential use of the 'automatic' alphabet soup of safety systems of the MINI. Sorry, but I don't see it that way at all. The ABS, DSC etc. systems exist primarily as a "safety net" to prevent accidents. Most of the enjoyment they would provide would be in the form of being thankful for not crashing. That has nothing to do with the enjoyment of shifting one's own gears.

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by peter_II
Both manual and automatich have advantages

automatic:
convinient in stop and go traffic an general in the city.

manual:
much better in the mountains.
5-10% less fuel consumption.
better performance with the same engine power.
possible to start the car with empty battery by pushing it.
no problem with getting towed.
At least in europe about 1000-2000$ cheaper on european cars

Peter's list is a pretty good one although I would question the mountain advantage of a manual, especially if uphill traffic is at all heavy and slow. To the cost issues I would add that manual transmissions tend to be cheaper to repair, although in my opinion they are somewhat more prone to wear out or break down than an automatic (we'll have to see how the CVT holds up). Of course, when you are talking about an S the cost issues (fuel consumption, initial price, etc)are probably secondary since we are already talking about a more expensive vehicle than a straight Cooper or for you lucky Europeans, a One. To advantages for the auto I would add they are easier to handle on steep hills (I'm talking urban roads not mountains) and are certainly easier on the folks behind you who are much less likely to experience that moment of anxiety as the manual stopped at the light on such a hill rolls back towards them before pulling away. ( A sensation several MINIs in front gave me on our recent SF MINI meet expedition down Lombard St. ) Someone will undoubtedly point out that a really skilled driver of a manual wouldn't roll backwards. Maybe, maybe not, but my experience has been there aren't too many who can get away without at least some, shall we say, "retrograde movement," on a good SF hill. And finally, as Basil points out automatics are generally faster at pulling away from stop lights, etc, which can be very handy if you need to get over into the person next to you's lane as soon as possible (as well as emotionally satisfying in a really petty rather childish way )

[BruceK]

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottG
...Some of you sound like real close-minded snobs. The MINI is to be enjoyed. Why do you assume everyone must do it "your way" or "the way it's always been done?" I know Porsche snobs that are more understanding of the big picture....

Porsche snobs may now 'understand' the company's Tiptronic transmission, but you can bet many of them feel the new Porsche Cayenne SUV does nothing but cheapen the Porsche name.

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottG
....Bruce seems to be more concerned about what people think of his Mini, with an auto S that might "cheapen the model" ?

Rest assured I'm not preoccupied with what other people think of what I drive. My last two daily drivers were a classic Mini Cooper followed by a Hyundai Accent. Believe me, nobody understood or was impressed by the old Mini and the newer Accent (now my daughter's car) seems to have little in the way of status or snob appeal. Yet I enjoyed driving them both.

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottG
Here's a thought, make an auto S but call it a "C" or "X" etc. Who cares. ...

That might be a good idea to separate it into a different model.

Let me give you a hypothetical to explain my reasoning on what "cheapening" a Cooper S by offering an automatic means to me:

Hypothetically, let's say MINI management decides to take the 'personalize' your MINI to the next step. They will now let you buy a base level MINI One but you can select from a "Cooper S Look" series of options. These external styling features are now available to be factory installed on your MINI One and they would include the Cooper S hood (complete with air scoop), the Cooper S front and rear bumpers including the twin tail pipes, the 17" wheels previously available only on the Cooper S, and Cooper S badges finish the option off. So, you purchase the full package of appearance options and your new MINI One rolls out of the factory looking just like a Cooper S, but under the hood there is no supercharged 163hp Cooper S engine - instead it's the same trusty 90hp engine as fitted to plain-looking MINI Ones.

Now, these new MINI One models decked out to appear as Cooper S models do not physically make your existing 163hp Cooper S any slower or less enjoyable to drive. That doesn't change at all. But I would argue that such a car would effectively cheapen the previous Cooper S models by being less then it appears and by not being a true performance car.

Sorry, I'm from the 'old school' and I think a driver should shift gears. To me, an automatic transmission does not belong in a car with performance aspirations. Yes, I know about automatics offered in Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, Aston Martins, and even Formula One cars (if they could make F1 cars go faster by counting the blinks of a driver's eye, they would do so to gain a competitive race advantage. It has nothing to do with enjoying driving and everything to do with winning races.) Sorry, but those cars don't change my thinking.

[Sejanus]

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceK

Let me give you a hypothetical to explain my reasoning on what "cheapening" a Cooper S by offering an automatic means to me:
Hypothetically, let's say MINI management decides to take the 'personalize' your MINI to the next step. They will now let you buy a base level MINI One but you can select from a "Cooper S Look" series of options. These external styling features are now available to be factory installed on your MINI One and they would include the Cooper S hood (complete with air scoop), the Cooper S front and rear bumpers including the twin tail pipes, the 17" wheels previously available only on the Cooper S, and Cooper S badges finish the option off. So, you purchase the full package of appearance options and your new MINI One rolls out of the factory looking just like a Cooper S, but under the hood there is no supercharged 163hp Cooper S engine - instead it's the same trusty 90hp engine as fitted to plain-looking MINI Ones.
Now, these new MINI One models decked out to appear as Cooper S models do not physically make your existing 163hp Cooper S any slower or less enjoyable to drive. That doesn't change at all. But I would argue that such a car would effectively cheapen the previous Cooper S models by being less then it appears and by not being a true performance car.

I wouldn't really have that much of a problem with all of this. Heck, you can call a One a Cooper for all I care. The only issue for some perhaps would be the S badge since usually different names/badges are primarily a way of identifying the different engines. At which point Bruce should leap up an say "Ah Ha! That's my point! They're not the same so they shouldn't carry the same name." But if that is your argument then in our particular topic here you're saying a car is its transmission and nothing else. If I buy an S and modify its suspension or make some other change to it will you claim it is no longer an S? To me the engine is the central part of the car's identity. If they are the same except for manual or auto/CVT then they're the same car to most of us. But hey, I've already conceded the name issue. Give it a different name if it so offends you. I know, we'll call a CVT S the MINI Cooper S+. My point was that people on this thread didn't want a CVT version to even be offered and that was frankly, wrong and unfair to others with different preferences. I don't care what initial you want to slap on it.

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceK

Sorry, I'm from the 'old school' and I think a driver should shift gears. To me, an automatic transmission does not belong in a car with performance aspirations. Yes, I know about automatics offered in Ferraris, Porsches, Corvettes, Aston Martins, and even Formula One cars (if they could make F1 cars go faster by counting the blinks of a driver's eye, they would do so to gain a competitive race advantage. It has nothing to do with enjoying driving and everything to do with winning races.) Sorry, but those cars don't change my thinking.

Wouldn't being built for performance involve having a competitive advantage?
I could argue that having a good automatic transmission gives the driver greater control in some circumstances (see earlier post about faster takeoffs and hills) and allows the driver to concentrate and enjoy other aspects of their car a bit more, but that is all just personal taste and opinion.
In any case, I didn't know cars had aspirations. I thought that was the province of people and I've always suspected that people driving manuals for performance reasons (as opposed to economic ones)were the ones with closet racecar driver aspirations. Which is fine, they can shift gears all day till their arms drops off and imagine themselves zooming around the track of their fantasies. I certainly wouldn't want to deny anyone of that pleasure, but I see no reason why their daydreams need to limit my options.

[Wynn]

Right, so, getting back to the car...

MINI has said, I believe, that the Getrag transmission was selected because it was the only option that physically fit in the S. So, I bet it will be a long time before we see an alternative tucked into that spot, or even a longer first gear, because the Getrag is shared with other cars-- they'll not likely find a better alternative, nor modify the existing one just for the Cooper S.

I don't know whether an automatic requires more or less space than the compact Getrag, so perhaps this argument is irrelevant to the issue of an automatic in the S; but, maybe it's critical. Perhaps someone here can enlighten us in this regard.

It's also important to note that a larger engine is really unlikely for the car for the same reason. But, I'll never understand why BMW and Chrysler bothered to build an all-new 1.6 without any contemporary technologies that might improve performance, output, efficiency and emissions, like variable valve timing, or even DOHCs. When the BMW/Peugot engines debut, I bet they won't be bigger-- they'll be smarter.

Here's hoping.

[monica]

Quote:

Originally posted by BruceK


Yes, for the first several years of Corvette production the car only came with a 2-speed automatic and an in-line 6-cylinder engine. At the time, both the primitive automatic and the wimpy 6-cylinder engine kept the Corvette from being considered a 'real' sports car compared to cars as the Jaguar XK120.

Corvette produced Automatics through out the 1990s and I do believe still do. 2002 corvette was availible in an automatic. Only reason I brought it up was we knew a guy w/ a white Corvette, plates said MY TOY. We had enough to rag on him about but all hell broke loose when we relised it had an auto tranny in it. Unless you guys are talking about some sort of other corvette automatic. Its some sort of secret

[BruceK]

Quote:

Originally posted by monica



Corvette produced Automatics through out the 1990s and I do believe still do. 2002 corvette was availible in an automatic. Only reason I brought it up was we knew a guy w/ a white Corvette, plates said MY TOY. We had enough to rag on him about but all hell broke loose when we relised it had an auto tranny in it. Unless you guys are talking about some sort of other corvette automatic. Its some sort of secret

This was a side discussion on Corvette history dating back to the the 1953 and 1954 models which could only be had with automatic transmissions and a wimpy 6-cylinder engine. Starting in 1955 the car came with either an automatic or manual transmission (AFAIK both transmission choices have been options each year since 1955 up to present model 2002 model year Corvettes).

[Sejanus]

Weird coincidence, but I was in the supermarket after my last post on this thread today and I started checking out car magazines (a bad habit I picked up while waiting for my MINI) and I came across an article on the new BMW SMG M3 (interested Basil?) in September's Road and Track. I'll spare you the bit about how it was more pleasant to drive in heavy traffic than a standard M3 since that part is obvious, but here are some relevant quotes to other aspects of this discussion, "The conventional manual was nice too, but the SMG was quicker and more comfortable because it allowed us to concentrate more on steering, braking and accelerating, without experiencing any sacrifice in lap times." and "On the freeway, SMG provides a luxury that you just can't get with a conventional stick shift, and at the track, well, it makes you feel like a race driver."
Now I agree (despite all this discussion) that we are unlikely to see an automatic/CVT Cooper S anytime soon, but perhaps, just perhaps, Basil is onto something and maybe someday we will see an SMG S. This is BMW after all and I find it hard to believe that the technical issues of putting some kind of nonmanual transmission in an S are that unresolvable.

[peter_II]

First of all I was talking about classic automatics not
cvt´s, because a doupt BMW would but a CVT in a supercharged
car.

>>>Peter's list is a pretty good one although I would >>>question the mountain advantage of a manual, especially >>>if uphill traffic is at all heavy and slow.
I was talking about really windy narrow mountainroads with
turn 180° which we go up in winter for skiing. If a A-Road
ist a High Way this would be a Z Road...
If you go down a hole Montain on a 15% road you need to
use the engine as a break. The engine break when using automatic is less effective.
Going up under changing street conditions (snow, wett, dry,leaves,...), its not helpfull if the automatic changes gears unexpected.

>>>To advantages for the auto I would add they are easier >>>to handle on steep hills (I'm talking urban roads not >>>mountains) and are certainly easier on the folks behind >>>you who are much less likely to experience that moment >>>of anxiety as the manual stopped at the light on such a >>>hill rolls back towards them before pulling away. ( A >>>sensation several MINIs in front gave me on our recent >>>SF MINI meet expedition down Lombard St. ) Someone will >>>undoubtedly point out that a really skilled driver of a >>>manual wouldn't roll backwards. Maybe, maybe not, but my >>>experience has been there aren't too many who can get >>>away without at least some, shall we say, "retrograde >>>movement," on a good SF hill.
You are completly right, but most cityhills are that steep than in SF and its usally not a problem.
You can always use the handbreak is want zero movement.
But you are right automatich is more convinient here.


>>>And finally, as Basil points out automatics are >>>generally faster at pulling away from stop lights, etc, >>>which can be very handy if you need to get over into the >>>person next to you's lane as soon as possible (as well >>>as emotionally satisfying in a really petty rather >>>childish way )

I never tried it with the same car one with automatic and one without. But in magazins they normaly show the acceleration with ans without automaic and the manual is always better even in 0-30 range. I dont think that compareable automatich cars are faster from the red light
than manuals with experienced drivers.

[J3T]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned but you guys type soo much it takes too much time to read it all!!!

Anyway, I heard rumours way back when that if the S was offered with an automatic that it would be tiptronic - paddles behind the steering wheel!

If thast isn't sporty enough for you then I don't know what is!

Jon