[valnmike]

I’d be interested to hear what others think. This is my “wish list”, based on experiences with, and assumptions and guesses I have on how and what the CVT MINI is doing. “IF” there is any consensus on programming, I will post the result to MINI on the Product Development forum in the Owner’s Lounge- and then hope for an upgrade to be made available to us.

Assuming our CVT is not just in need of an already available software update, get rid of the hesitation, or time lag when the gas pedal is pressed. (It is a 2/14/03 build and has not yet been updated) I guess that the MINI is calculating engine parameters every time the gas pedal is depressed from a standing start. I don’t know how else to account for this time lag. If my assumption is correct, perhaps an increase in the CPU memory or changing something so that the computer does not need calculate the response to the pedal input may help. It seems like the faster you move the throttle down, the slower the car responds. Might it help to store some of the acceleration input variables from a prior acceleration when the car was moving? Couldn’t it use those parameters from memory for the first 5 or 10 seconds, instead of calculating them every time we step on the gas?

Can we get rid of the drag at idle? There is some kind of engine drag when stopped in gear. To compensate, the computer pumps in extra fuel to keep the idle up (not just with the AC on). I normally shift to neutral when at long lights so the engine can stop working against the drag load, and it helps the engine idle smoother and easier. I think this has the potential to save on fuel at idle because the idle rpm drops after shifting out of gear. (Does anyone know if it would damage anything to coast in neutral?)

I wish that the CVT and throttle were programmed to behave a bit differently. I am referring to the kick-down behaviour when the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. According to my experience and the information provided at http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...=&pagenumber=5 the CVT MINI is actually SLOWER to accelerate if the gas pedal is pressed to the floor. Here’s how I wish it would behave.

In D mode: Pressing the pedal down, the computer should use the SD mode parameters after passing the kick-down detent.

In SD mode: Press the pedal to the floor and everything should snap to the rpm and CVT ratios for fastest possible acceleration. “Snap” as in make the changes as fast as possible; forget about occupant comfort, I want a kick in the pants in this situation. While in SD mode, the computer should perform a running calculation of those snap-to settings so they are always available the instant the pedal is pressed past the detent. No hesitation.

In M +\- mode: Press the pedal past the detent and the gear ratios should drop to the next lowest “gear” setting, provided engine rpm will be within acceptable limits. Again this should be a snap change, not a leisurely response.

MINI should make this programming available as an upgrade to existing CVT MINIs, not just future sales. There is no reason current owners should be punished by being excluded from better performance because of their earlier purchases of the CVT MINI. After all, I feel like we have been field testing the software for MINI while they try to solve performance and drive-ability issues. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

[ssimms]

Mike,
Am I sensing frustration with an automatic or are you accustomed to an automatic in other small cars that you think you like better?

The CVT I drove was not what I would describe as spritely or spirited. I did however, think that it was quite adequate for an automatic. I choose to drive a manual shift myself in all of our vehicles and fortunately, I have a wife who prefers standard transmissions as well. Maybe you do have issues with your CVT but, I would suggest driving one at the dealers to make sure yours is truly different from the norm. None of what I read you to say is much different that how I would expect a small engined, automatic transmissioned car to behave.
Please don't take the following in offense.
If you were expecting that because it is a MINI it would somehow perform substantially different than other small vehicles with the same specification, then I think you are expecting too much.

[valnmike]

Quote: Originally Posted by ssimms

Mike,
Am I sensing frustration with an automatic or are you accustomed to an automatic in other small cars that you think you like better?

It may be frustration, but that is not how I would characterize my sentiments. I like the CVT and enjoy the capabilities it offers. I am just wondering if the MINI CVT could be better than it is. The automatics I have current experience with are in a 1981 Accord, 1994 Quest and 2001 Odyssey. I expect the performance of the MINI to at lest match the Accord, yes? When I get into one of the minivans (which I avoid at great effort), I have to relearn how to modulate my right foot. e.g., in the Odyssey, I am squealing the tyres on take off because I am so accustomed to 1) the half-second lag, and 2) the lack of throttle response that requires me to nearly floor it to get going. I accept that a minivan has a lot more available space for a larger engine than the MINI and so one may expect more torque from its engine. But I would like the MINI to be no so -how do I express this- I do not like the pause before it responds to throttle input.

As noted, I have not had it in for any service since delivered; a testament to improved quality over the 02's I'd say. So part of my question is I suppose implied -does it sound like there is a software upgrade out there that will correct some of my issues? The other part is of course, I think it would be nice if there was a different behaviour that could be programmed into it.

[punkeyfunky]

Quote: Originally Posted by valnmike

It may be frustration, but that is not how I would characterize my sentiments. I like the CVT and e
[SNIP!]
ose implied -does it sound like there is a software upgrade out there that will correct some of my issues? The other part is of course, I think it would be nice if there was a different behaviour that could be programmed into it.

I have a MC CVT, March 03 build. I have to drive auto, following a serious RTA a few years back. So, I've driven various auto's over the years.

I've learned that the MINI CVT is actually, a very clever and excellent box. Sure, it's got that damned 'take-off' lag, but on the whole, it's a great box.

I have driven a trult fantastic auto - my Supra. It'll shift cogs in less than 1/10th of a second (faster than *any* manual change) and the Supra eats porches for breakfast. Having said that, it's got a tweaked and tuned twin turbo three litre under the bonnet with around 350BHP to play with.

I used to drive much larger cars, simply because they came with large capacity engines, which I found essential for getting any kind of performance with, when coupled to an auto box.

The MINI changed that; remember, that ickle 1600cc engine is pushing 115bhp; and thats not much when you haven't got direct control of the clutch.

The CVT's lag is there because the CVT needs to get the ratio started, and of course, it's programmed for a smooth take-off. In addition, the fly-by-wire throttle means you are dependent on the ECU to set the box up and therefore the car in motion. Yes, I wish it was faster at take off, but then, I can understand that BMW are trying to please as many people as possible.

Don't forget that with only 115bhp, you're not going to win that many traffic light burn races, and in that context, the lag becomes less of an issue.

I have found that "learning" the CVT takes time and patience, but I now find my MINI seriously rewarding.

To qualify that... My Supra is a total animal; it's got so much grunt that I've never lost a straight line race, and it *always* gets my adrenaline going and my legs shaking.

On the flip side, I have to wring every last ounce of power out of my MC. It's factory standard, no modifications, and as such, really needs working, and careful timing for overtakes, corners etc (in manual mode). Now I get it 'right' more and more, and the sense of satisfaction is fantastic.

After driving my MC for a 2000 mile round trip (2 weeks, honeymoon), I am going to be selling the Supra. Sure, I love that old beast, but I the MINI is a better package all round. As far as I'm concerned, thats a big thumbs up to the CVT box, given that the manual is not an option for me.

If BMW decide to tweak the box, I'm there. I'd love to be involved. If they don't, I'm not going to lose any sleep.

Now then, I really must go and order the Pipercross induction kit and PlayMini exhaust...



Lee
'Lovin my MINI'

[valnmike]

Quote: Originally Posted by punkeyfunky

I have a MC CVT, March 03 build. I have to drive auto, following a serious RTA a few years back. So, I've driven various auto's over the years.

...snip...

After driving my MC for a 2000 mile round trip (2 weeks, honeymoon), I am going to be selling the Supra. Sure, I love that old beast, but I the MINI is a better package all round. As far as I'm concerned, thats a big thumbs up to the CVT box, given that the manual is not an option for me.

If BMW decide to tweak the box, I'm there. I'd love to be involved. If they don't, I'm not going to lose any sleep.

Now then, I really must go and order the Pipercross induction kit and PlayMini exhaust...



Lee
'Lovin my MINI'

Sounds like congratulations are in order punkeyfunky.

I can identify with you on the Supra. Until three years ago I had a 4-speed 1971 Corvette with a 365 HP 454 in it. And I do not expect that kind of brute power from a MINI (compare 14-16 mpg to 26-28 + for the MINI). I have realized over the last 8,000 miles in the MINI that this is a car for finesse in driving, not brute force. I love the M +/- mode, especially in the tight corners. There’s nothing I like more than threading my way through them without ever touching the brakes.

So far, nobody has commented on the kick-down changes I proposed. Am I in the minority in thinking that it’s a waste of potential?

[punkeyfunky]

Quote: Originally Posted by valnmike

(snippety snip)

So far, nobody has commented on the kick-down changes I proposed. Am I in the minority in thinking that it’s a waste of potential?

To be honest, I think that three modes work very well as they are; that is, D for 'normal' driving, the SD mode does a good job of keeping the power on tap, and over on Manual mode it's up to you when you change up.

I'd like see to see the take off lag eliminated or reduced. I don't really use the kick down much, as if I'm boooting it, manual mode works best (4000rpm and up... )

Of course, if the MCS is ever made available with CVT/auto, I'll be at the front of the queue. In the meantime, other threads state that the MC CVT box will take 150bhp... so, I've got 35bhp to find from somewhere

Lee

[nonsequitur]

I'm fairly certain that the drag at idle comes from the engaged oil-bath 6-disk clutch packs (1 forward, 1 reverse). Shifting to N takes them out of system, with engine rpm adjusted by the EMS2000. You may be right about small fuel savings potential.

I like the twist of 'finding' 35bhp somewhere. That's a good way to look at it.

[valnmike]

Quote: Originally Posted by punkeyfunky

To be honest..snip.... I don't really use the kick down much, as if I'm boooting it, manual mode works best (4000rpm and up... )

Of course, if the MCS is ever made available with CVT/auto, I'll be at the front of the queue. In the meantime, other threads state that the MC CVT box will take 150bhp... so, I've got 35bhp to find from somewhere

Lee

I do not use the kick down either. And I think that is what bothers me. Why have that feature on the CVT? It seems pointless to have it when using it makes the car accelerate slower.

I think I am going to start looking for some of those 35 horses too. I've been motoring along with the SGS (silly grin syndrome) for 7 months and 8300 miles with it just the way it was delivered. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I'd just like to see if I can tinker around and get something more out if it.

[nonsequitur]

My over-arching wish is to have the detailed workings of this wonderful machine calmly explained to me so I could drive it better, more safely, and with technical understanding.

We are figuring it out together though, aren't we?

[valnmike]

Is there anybody like a MINI service tech willing to share some secrets on how our CVTs work? I'd really like to know if there's anything that needs to be avoided. I'd also like to know if it's even possible to change the CVT like I asked about at the start of this thread. -Please.

[nonsequitur]

I'll pick up on valnmike's questions as a way to restart comments here in this thread. These questions of priority (wishes) are surely critically important to BMW/MINI, and we should use the insightful start from valnmike to communicate our feedback and suggestions at this stage of the MINI engineering development process.

BMW/MINI has made changes to the MINI's programming based on our inputs.

The best recent example is the 6000rpm redline indication on the CVT which restores "logic" to the whole system: EMS2000 programming now matches the driver's display, which matches the driver's expectation, which thus enables a safer and less confusing car. It's a common sense change that should have been there at launch, but it eventually got done. Congratulations to MINI for listening, and for acting to improve the car and reduce legal exposure.

Other issues can be highlighted and addressed in the same way.

1)
Most drivers would assume that pushing the e-Throttle all the way to the floor gives "maximum" acceleration. This is logical, expected, and safer (if implemented) because a driver will react with this action in an emergency situation.

The problem in the MINI CVT is that someone (in Marketing?) made a decision that MINI drivers would prefer an impression of earnest acceleration ("shifting") versus delivering the actual potential of this unique technology. This was a mistake in my opinion.

I urge MINI to erase this strange behavior because MINI CVT drivers are proud of the unique character and performance of the "Continuously Variable Transmission". There is also an unacceptable legal exposure in NOT giving maximum performance when the pedal is depressed for passing and accident avoidance. The current setup is not "logical", and it must be disliked by careful and thinking engineers who were probably overruled by the marketing types.

A marketing mistake that should be corrected.

2)
I would suspect that the slow speed issues (stall, yo-yo, surges, bucks, lurches, ...) have a bunch of people working overtime and that these issues are "the initial priorities" for programming changes. They affect everyone, create big frustrations, generate legal questions, and dominate service time expenses across the range of models.

The biggest payback to MINI is in resolving these behaviors first, and I'd say that is why we have seen HUGE progress, not resolution yet, but significant improvements for the manual transmissions -- and the CVT (33.2, 36.0).

Because these troublesome behaviors are the priorities, AND anything done will have some significant effect on other issues, progress has been made first on these slow speed issues. MINI's absolute priorities appear correct to me. We all wish for faster progress.

3)
Some of the CVT concerns may be a function of the CVT design itself, at the technology level (how a CVT works) and at the ZF design level (how they innovated).

MINI's current engineering development effort, if this is true, will minimize undesirables and emphasize desirable behaviors, and getting the desirables right will have the effect of masking some aspects of the bad behaviors.

An example may be the "delay" when starting off from a full stop.

There are many software decisions and hardware design decisions in play here. This also means that there should be compromises available to minimize the undesirables, but they may not be simple or easy to introduce.

The software "Target Speed" selection process takes driver input from the e-Throttle to establish what performance is being demanded. This seems like a great place to use the detent switch as an indicator of driver intent for "maximum" versus selecting some goofy shifting behavior that is actually slower and less effective (a false impression only).

The hardware (drive belt) must be positioned for maximum purchase to launch quickly. If the Variator resting positions at idle or small throttle are not already at the lowest ratio, then it takes time to position (physically move) them there (= time = "delay"!).

The existing choices (compromises) can surely be changed but there will be problematic consequences in some other characteristic or behavior. This must be a hugely complex environment because all the driver-wants and dynamic characteristics are in play: comfort, safety, performance, expected reaction, logic, ...

Look at this "film strip" of the CVT see a clear demo of what is going on. I like this Canadian MINI website's technical display because it shows the "turbine-smooth" adjustment of the thrust belt that is the character of the CVT we enjoy, and it is this smooth behavior that actually gives the best performance as well (also relates back to Item 1 above):

http://www.mini.ca/index.asp?pg=tech...nology&lang=en
select: Performance, then frame 2 of 5, then View Demo, then Accelerate

-- some careful opinion:

I'm actually impressed with the work BMW/MINI has done to recover from all the technical, reliability, and driving behavior issues that showed up after Launch in 2002. There were, and still are some important, problems. Many of them should have been resolved prior to launch of the car which is why these Forums, and even organizations like Consumer Reports, have so much activity on these subjects with the MINI.

All we can ask now is that BMW/MINI continue to knock down issues with appropriate priority. This is definitely happening, and I support the progress we are seeing.

Our MINI is really a "new car" after CD#33.2 was installed -- a joy to drive. It has bullet-proof reliability now, and it's a source of interested conversation and respectful questions from drivers of other MINI models and other brands because the CVT technology is "unique" (proper use of the word I think) on the road and track today. This car performs better than they would expect, so it's been fun to show other drivers the technical and performance story of the MINI Cooper CVT. A great car, and one I wouldn't trade for any other right now. It should have its own badge on the boot lid, just like the One "D" highlights a very interesting motor.

I feel strongly that certain behaviors still should be changed, and it's up to us as owners to keep the hotlines, forums, and dealer conversations full of accurate feedback and helpful suggestions.

Motoring is getting better!

[nonsequitur]

It may be time to re-energize this thread because we have had so much "new" punched into the car's software, and a lot of information made available that was just not there for reading or debate in 2003. Owners are now running v.38.0, v.37.0, v.36.0, and the earlier versions that mattered like v.33.2.

I reread my long rant preceeding this entry, deciding to let it stand because it's accurate to say "Congratulations to MINI for listening, and for acting to improve the car and reduce legal exposure."

1):
What is your current assessment of the CVT-equipped cars?

and 2), it may be better to ask:
What are the items that must still be addressed, and at what Priority?

[jazmini]

Well, I took delivery of my CVT MINI on 30 October 2003, and don't know what software version it came with. But I agree with all here who have said the car is really really really slow off the line and I absolutely hate that (valnmike had excellent comments on that at the start of the posting). So much that I am thinking of what next car to get. However, I absolutely love driving the car once it gets going, and for the reasons already stated here, i.e., taking the twisties you don't have to brake or driving in stop and go traffic you don't have to brake. You can be accelerating strong and if you need to slow or stop, you can take your foot off the accelerator and coast to slow down -- its great. I started driving in manual mode one week ago, and that is a real blast, except again, with the off the line performance. You guys may be right in that this problem is probably the ECU chip. I heard there is also a chip that controls the CVT too, but they may be the same chip, I don't know. I would hate to give this car up, but that is how bad the chip performance is, when I have to give serious consideration to changing cars. I am leaning toward keeping this car, but go back and forth on that. Hopefully MINI is working on this problem. I don't know how the more current chip upgrades perform.

[nonsequitur]

I personally don't worry about stop-light drags so the off-the-line stuff just isn't an issue for me, but I think the reason for this valid complaint is the multiplate oil-bath clutches which must be slipped to get the machine underway, not the MINI software version and not the Siemens ECU.

[jazmini]

If that's true nonsequitur, then there probably aren't any improvements that will be forthcoming. I don't know, but I'm guessing the delay off the line at full throttle (or 3/4 or whatever) is maybe 2 full seconds. After one second the car will start to move very slowly, but it takes another second for the car to spool up so-to-speak then give a big rush of power all at once. The Consumer Guide (that posts an annual magazine of complete car reviews of all cars) states that MINI told them that a CVT MINI is only slightly slower than the 5 speed. I don't think that is true, because if you give up maybe 2 seconds off the line and are still an automatic, you will be more than 2 seconds slower to 60 mph. That is a lot, so if we ask MINI for the 0 to 60 mph times for the CVT, I bet they won't give them to us, as they will be really slow and they would rather just say the CVT MINI is only slightly slower than the 5 speed rather than give numbers. That would hurt sales.

But, I'm like you nonsequitur, in that I don't drag race anyone. But I really would like a more responsive CVT off the line. One good thing I have noticed in the CVT's favor is that when you really load the car up with people, it is not that much slower off the line. Try that with the 5 speed and you will really have to rev it up. I drove my nephew's MINI 5 speed with 4 people in it and it was really slow off the line and torque was nonexistent. It held up traffic. But I should have given it more gas I think (maybe redlining it maybe )

I don't want to sound like I'm too negative for the CVT, as I really do like it a lot -- once you get moving.

[valnmike]

Quote: Originally Posted by jazmini

If that's true nonsequitur, then there probably aren't any improvements that will be forthcoming. ...snip

But, I'm like you nonsequitur, in that I don't drag race anyone. But I really would like a more responsive CVT off the line. One good thing I have noticed in the CVT's favor is that when you really load the car up with people, it is not that much slower off the line. Try that with the 5 speed and you will really have to rev it up. I drove my nephew's MINI 5 speed with 4 people in it and it was really slow off the line and torque was nonexistent. It held up traffic. But I should have given it more gas I think (maybe redlining it maybe )

I don't want to sound like I'm too negative for the CVT, as I really do like it a lot -- once you get moving.

jazmini, I get the impression that your CVT is still fairly new; yes? Your profile here indicates you have a Cooper S? Do you have 2 MINIs or is there a mistake? Are you past the 1250 mile run-in period yet? When you are past it, try some of the things in the CVT Driving Technique thread, especially the 1-D-SD flick.

FWIW, I now have over 14K miles on my CVT. I can't say for sure if is truly gotten better, or if I've grown accustomed to it, but the take off in my 2/14/03 build CVT does seem to have gotten better. I've learned not to mash it to the floor but to stop at the detent, for what feels like the best acceleration. This is true in D, SD, and 1. I have this idea that after several thousand miles, the clutch pack wears in and its performance improves a bit. At least that seems to have been my experience. Hang in there, I think it could improve with time. I'm living north of Silver Spring and work down by the Air and Space museum. Maybe we'll see each other some time.

[Grumbler]

well here is my take on the CVT. feb/march build 2004

1. dead stop off the line, there is a definite lag......hence, i have been doing a lot of rolling starts. stopping short at the lights, and just releasing the brake on the start. it works for the most part. I would however like to see some sort of improvement here.

2. on twisties, it makes the S look like an overpriced, spoiled, child.....especially in S mode. I can say this now, having done the agressive test drive of the S recently.

3. the lag between shifts in S mode is a little annoying when you are trying to accelerate quickly.

[jazmini]

valnmike, thanks for the heads up -- I changed my signature. No, I only have the CVT, but when I entered that I probably immediately scrolled down without clicking out of that menu box first, so that probably changed the selection. I've done that before on these type of boxes.

I'll try to find the detent instead of flooring it -- that should help. I read a few older posts on the delay on take off, so I see it is a bit of a problem. Driving the CVT is so much fun after you get moving that I can live with this. It is so great. The other day I was in heavy stop and go traffic and making turns and it was such a blast shifting and using engine braking. I can't imagine a better car for that. The CVT really put a smile on my face. It shifts so smoothly and quickly. Much better than using manual shifting with a regular automatic. It actually felt just like a manual. Awesome! I've got just 3850 miles now, but she's broken in, so hopefully will get better over time. I live in the Landmark area of Alexandria, VA and work at the Washington Navy Yard, Southeast DC, maybe one and a half miles from the capital. Yeah, hope to see you sometime. My license is JAZMINI too. I'm in DC Metro MINIs but haven't gotten out to anything yet. But will sometime. Are you a member of the club? I've wanted to go down the the Dragon Run, but haven't been able to get that specific time off from work when everyone else is going. Take care buddy!

nonsequitur, sometimes it seems quick enough on take off if you just give it a little bit of gas. I have also felt lately that it seems faster when cold and once it warms up it is slower -- but that was before I started driving in manual mode. That could just be my imagination. That is why I thought an improvement in the chip could help. I don't know that much about this transmission, although I've read some of the available data on it. I'm learning more and more. There are other CVTs in other cars, i.e., Audi, Honda Civic. I wonder how they perform in comparison to the CVT MINI?

[jazmini]

Grumbler, that's an interesting idea there of your rolling start. I'll give that a try. Hopefully, MINI can improve on the CVT performance, as it is really cool to use. I've never driven a SMT, but feel the CVT is pretty much like that. Yeah, I can see the CVT being a better car in the twisties over the S -- it's got my vote - hey, but I'm partial to the CVT. I've never driven the S though, but I don't think anything can beat the CVTs engine braking. I've not used the Sport mode yet, as I'm enjoying the manual mode and having too much fun with that. I'm going to order one of those silver shifter knobs from MINI to replace the stock one. Oh boy!

[Vanwall]

I've gotta agree with the general trend for a quick start off the line, but truth to tell, I don't seem to be the one disappearing in the mirror - the CVT keeps up or better quite nicely with the stop-light grand prix. I really wish it would handle a larger power increase, tho, and that retro-fit paddles were available from the dealers in the USA. Yeah, I know, dream on.

As a side note, I went to Solvang with my MINI club, SCMM, and had no problem running with the 'S's or Manual Coopers in the twisties, and only on the open straight road did they pull away. The road surface on the twisties was atrocious, however, and I think that contributed to a lot of "S" drivers having handling problems on the tighter corners - their suspension wasn't soaking up the road well enough to apply the power judisciously. I could watch them losing traction, and shifting up & down to get into the right rev range, while I could leave it in SD at the detent without a problem. I don't normally do this, but it was actually quite like a monster 2 pedal go-cart, and I could concentrate on steering and braking, some of it even left-footed, a first for me on a MINI run. Still working on technique with that, tho.

On occaison, I get to drive my half of the 'S' I share with my son, and it still makes me wish for a CVT for the 'S', but I'm afraid they have other plans. I would be REAL tempted if they ever do an 'S' CVT, tho.

BCNU,
Rob in Dago