[uRabbit]

Hello all! I'm new to this scene. Not just the Cooper scene, but the whole non-Japanese-Import-scene... I'm an import fan and after looking at so many cars around, it's disappointing to see that none are as small as my 1984 Honda Prelude (except the Civic Si and some expensive roadsters and spyders). I love my little Prelude, due to its superior handling and wonderfully-well-built automatic transmission. Although I'd prefer a standard in this car, I still manage to have fun with the auto, with a loss of fuel economy, however.

So, I was thinking... The Mini Cooper is a small car... And it's made by BMW, so it can't be too bad. So I took a look at it and saved a few different settings for the Cooper S on the website. In some of them, I chose the CVT, having my future wife in-mind. Now, I'm not all that big of a fan of manual transmission either, only due to the third pedal... So when I took a look at the CVT (in comparison to other "variable automatics") I realised that I was dealing with something compeltely different. Something I've been looking for in a car for years.

You see, I like to drive fast. Around here, cops really don't mind, as long as you're on the interstate and it's during one of the hours when traffic is light. (Believe me; I've passed a cop on a two-lane highway doing 105mph... Then again, he may have radioed-in...) I like to drive fast, but in my automatic, it's pretty hard to do so. What I do is: Start off in Auto3. Once I'm on the highway, switch to 2nd Gear (lowest on selector), let it get to 5900rpm, shift to Auto3, let it get to 5900rpm, switch to Auto4. I've only done this once and got my car up to 118mph (6mph more than if I allowed it to be fully-automatic). I'm sure I can get it higher, and we'll see probably tomorrow.

So, anyway, I'm tired of my automatic, and in a few years, I'll be able to purchase a new car (once I've got enough credit built up and the like). My question is: Why even go stick? This CVT seems like the ideal transmission for anyone! The only downside I see is; no torque control. But who needs torque control unless they're in a rally or a pro-race?

If I'm ignorant to anything, please let me know. I really don't know all that much about manual trannies...

[Cooper76]

Welcome to the forum.

If you like to go in excess of 100mph, then the CVT won't be for you. You will need to order the S with the Aisin auto. That would suit you better.

However, if you can live under the triple-digit thresh hold, then the CVT transmission is a wonderful piece of machinery, bordering on automotive art.

It depends what you truly want more.

[Vanwall]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooper76

Welcome to the forum.

If you like to go in excess of 100mph, then the CVT won't be for you. You will need to order the S with the Aisin auto. That would suit you better.

However, if you can live under the triple-digit thresh hold, then the CVT transmission is a wonderful piece of machinery, bordering on automotive art.

It depends what you truly want more.

Actually, I've had mine over the ton for extended periods more than a few times. I'm right at about 3200 RPM at 80 MPH, and thats just at the point the cam kicks in. The acceleration isn't quite as quick as a manual, but it's amazingly linear, and butter-smooth. As the automatic 'S' isn't available just yet, I'll have to wait to pass judgement on it, but it sounds promising if you need more HP.

BCNU,
Rob in Dago

[Cooper76]

Quote: Originally Posted by Vanwall

Actually, I've had mine over the ton for extended periods more than a few times. I'm right at about 3200 RPM at 80 MPH, and thats just at the point the cam kicks in. The acceleration isn't quite as quick as a manual, but it's amazingly linear, and butter-smooth. As the automatic 'S' isn't available just yet, I'll have to wait to pass judgement on it, but it sounds promising if you need more HP.

BCNU,
Rob in Dago

Oh, I am sure the CVT does over 100mph, but uRabbit sounds like he enjoys playing over that limit often and getting there easily. In that case, the CVT wouldn't be the best tool.

As for me, I am still in break-in mode, so I have to wait a little while longer before I get to play. Hehehe...

[Tigger, Eeyore & Roo]

I drive manual cars all the time. I've driven an automatic only infrequently.

Whenever I drive a manual there is a direct connection between the pressure on the accelerator pedal and the way the car handles. For instance, if I'm in a RWD car and I'm in a bend you can get a bit more oversteer by a little bit more pressure on the "loud" pedal. In a front drive car you can get all sorts of interesting effects mid bend by adjusting the pressure on the accelerator. I look upon these things as all part of the fun of driving a car like the MINI, where the handling is so good.

Do any of this in an automatic and the "feel" is completely lost. A manual car with a badly slipping clutch is pretty similar.

As a happy user of an automatic, could you let me know your view on these things?

Tigger.

[Vanwall]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo

I drive manual cars all the time. I've driven an automatic only infrequently.

Whenever I drive a manual there is a direct connection between the pressure on the accelerator pedal and the way the car handles. For instance, if I'm in a RWD car and I'm in a bend you can get a bit more oversteer by a little bit more pressure on the "loud" pedal. In a front drive car you can get all sorts of interesting effects mid bend by adjusting the pressure on the accelerator. I look upon these things as all part of the fun of driving a car like the MINI, where the handling is so good.

Actually the MINI fly-by-wire is pretty good at making those incremental throttle adjustments, but to really simulate the old Mini FWD experience, DSC has to be turned off, and this is a gamble that pays off only if you have enough room for error. Not something I personally do a lot on the twisties, and this applies to manual MINIs as well. The CVT has engine braking that functions as well as any manual while in "Manual" mode, so it's possible to drive it over the entire useable rev range, and will hold a gear just as well as a manual MINI, 'till the electronics take over in both cases.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo

Do any of this in an automatic and the "feel" is completely lost. A manual car with a badly slipping clutch is pretty similar.

As a happy user of an automatic, could you let me know your view on these things?

Tigger.

The CVT is not like a slushbox at all. When in "D" , it's more like an electric car in acceleration, as there are no "steps", or simulated gears, if you get the throttle input just right. "SD", is the more sporting selection which, if used with left-foot braking judiciously, can be quite quick, and with the DSC off, the car reacts in a classic FWD fashion. This isn't always desireable, as trailing throttle oversteer can be fatally sudden if you're not use to it. In "Manual" mode, it is just like driving a shift, but without requiring clutch dancing. Left foot braking and DSC off in "Manual" can be a flashback to the sideways Mini driving attitudes from yore, if you really need that kind of pucker. ;-) The slipping clutch feeling just ain't there for me, and 55k on the clock and she still goes up and down the gears without a qualm. I do wish there was more HP, but I get along, as some of the folk I run twisties with can testify. The CVT may not be for everybody, but it's a d**n good MINI!

BCNU,
Rob in Dago

[nonsequitur]

Remember that the CVT-equipped MINI is driven through oil-bath clutches, not a torque converter. It has a direct throttle connection to the wheels once the car is underway. This is particularly effective in Steptronic (manual) where specific ratios are held tenaciously by the gearbox. You can throttle-steer our cars in the corners!

I've asked in one of the threads somewhere: "What is a manual?"

Most responses immediately include clutch and driver selection of the gear ratio using a selector [on the floor]. Some people include the need of a third pedal for the clutch. A few get emotional.

Objectively, we have a "manual" gearbox in our car's ZF ecoTronic VT1F.

Power is transmitted directly from the motor via clutches to the gearbox that maintains fixed driver-selected ratios from a floor-mounted selector. It will deliver a driver-controlled on-road experience.

It's true that the clutches are actuated by the EMS2000 computer such that heel/toe technique is not required and not possible. This removes one element of advanced manual driving. In our car club schools, we ask drivers to select gears without trying heel/toe until they have mastered the far more important skills of smooth inputs (throttle, brake, steering), eyes up and ahead, the proper driving line. Most people don't use heel/toe effectively, but it is a technique to be learned and can be practiced in daily driving.

This set of characteristics produces a configuration that can be driven as a "automatic" or a "manual", which makes the MINI Cooper CVT more flexible to driving situations, more responsive to different family member needs, and fun in a "manual" way if that is what you need or want.

The MINI CVT is not perfect, as we've tried to investigate in these Forum threads, but it's not an [torque-converter] "automatic" as some seem to want to lump it.

It's a forward car; one that had, maybe still has, the opportunity to show a new way for the industry. There's no question that "MINI", as a BMW brand, as a lifestyle statement, as a designed "package", and as dynamic driving experience has shaken the industry. The styling and financial success of this first MINI has preserved elements for the new 2007 platform.

We may have a long term "collector" in the CVT-equipped cars, because they perform better than expected on the track (I love the stealth performance) and street, deliver fuel economy and reliability because the drivetrain is never stressed, and simply "adapt" to the driver's requirements in traffic, in the neighborhood, and on the track.

I'm still enjoying the technically challenging discussion with the guys after placing in an autocross, and taking other drivers for a ride in the afternoon sessions of a track day after they inquire about "what's with that steady high-rev motor?"

We have an impressive and very capable machine to learn to drive well.

[yellowminijim]

I realize that this is a bit late, but I just happened upon this thread. I'd echo some of the other replies, Vanwall's in particular. My 02 CVT doesn't have quite the same feeling of connectedness as my 73 classic Mini, but in steptronic mode it does resemble the feel and behavior of a manual transmission -- especially the "engine braking" aspect. It just seems a little slow to get started from a dead stop, but then I don't suspect that many of us are using CVT Coopers for drag racing!

[nonsequitur]

Quote: Originally Posted by yellowminijim

I realize that this is a bit late, but I just happened upon this thread.

One is never late to the CVT Thread! Welcome.

Quote: Originally Posted by yellowminijim

I don't suspect that many of us are using CVT Coopers for drag racing!

Probably very true, but you really should try it sometime. It is SO MUCH FUN to blow into the high-power scene with a mild-mannered car that gathers the girls and their curious boyfriends around your MINI after the first run.

We've had some exchange on this subject too:

CVT Drag Racing...

What is the 0-60 time for the CVT Cooper anyway?

CVT objective testing

[yellowminijim]

Thanks, Nonsequitor, for the reference to the other threads. You know, what I haven't found is a comparison of the "gearing" of the steptronic with a standard manual (is that redundant???) Cooper five-speed. In other words, if I'm in top gear in steptronic, how would that compare with top gear on a five-speed, or even with the optional six-speed in a Cooper S? Also, if you're still out there Nonsequitor, what are your' feelings about the comparisons between your classic and the MINI? I know that my '73 feels and sounds like it is going to blow up at freeway speeds. The MINI never feels like I'm really pushing it like the classic Mini. Guess I just have to use steptronic and never use 5th and 6th...

[nonsequitur]

Quote: Originally Posted by yellowminijim

You know, what I haven't found is a comparison of the "gearing" of the steptronic with a standard manual (is that redundant???) Cooper five-speed. In other words, if I'm in top gear in steptronic, how would that compare with top gear on a five-speed, or even with the optional six-speed in a Cooper S?

We posted the specific "ratios" in one of the threads here in this forum. I don't think it got to a spreadsheet however. I remember starting some complicated calculations to validate road speeds and ratio in the CVT, but interest and motivation moderated. Do you have a format that should be used?

Quote: Originally Posted by yellowminijim

Also, if you're still out there Nonsequitor, what are your' feelings about the comparisons between your classic and the MINI? I know that my '73 feels and sounds like it is going to blow up at freeway speeds. The MINI never feels like I'm really pushing it like the classic Mini. Guess I just have to use steptronic and never use 5th and 6th...

I honestly enjoy both cars. Both are Mini/MINI, but very different from each other. Weight, Width, and Wisdom might be some words to use.

Just as our MINI Cooper (2600lbs) maintains with much more powerful sports sedans (typically 3500lbs), weight is a huge difference to our Austin Cooper S (1400lbs). The MINI Cooper CVT on the track got me excited again about the sheer joy of less mass. I should not be able to circulate with the big boys, but it happens. Wonderful fun.

An autocross in the '67 MCS is just embarrassing. All the other cars must drive AROUND the cones, carve THROUGH weight transfers left/right, front/back, tires screaming. The '67 is almost a motorcycle by modern car measures; it just squirts through the course (limited by tires) with MUCH less drama.

The MINI is a safe, modern vehicle. I drive it in the real world, and I think twice about the '67 (although I drive it daily in the summer).

The stressed aspect is mostly sound insulation and better engineering. I really don't "prefer" either car; each has a great use, each is fabulous fun, each produces interest and comment from people on the street. We're keeping both.

[nonsequitur]

Here are the ZF ecoTronic VT1F fixed ratios in Steptronic (manual) as optimized for the MINI:

CVT Objective Testing