MINI2

yadda · Mar 25th, 2005, 03:00 AM

This may be a dumb question for the more mechanically inclined - please bear with me

I just discovered the joy of engine braking with my 05 MC using steptronic mode.

(Never drove a stickshift before so this whole thing is new to me). By actively downshifting I am often able to make traffic stops with little or no braking. It's a lot of fun and I bet it saves a lot of wear on the brake pads. My question is ... does engine braking create stress on the engine and/or the transmission (especially the CVT)? Is it gonna kill my drive chain in the long run if I use it too frequently? What does it do to the fuel economy?

Brakes may be expensive to replace but they are still a lot cheaper than a new Engine

mini vanilli · Mar 25th, 2005, 03:13 AM

why not just use your brakes. they are cheaper to replace. and thats what they are there for. yes, it stresses the engine. will it ruin it if you do it every now and then...no. but making it a habit could only be bad for your engine and drivetrain.

engine = go
brakes = stop

Frogeye58 · Mar 25th, 2005, 04:45 AM

Engine braking is a very safe way to control your speed on very steep declines. If you lose your brakes going down a mountain .....well you know what will happen. I've always downshifted to control my speed and or to set up for a turn and power through it. I think that if you balance your engine braking with your brakes, you are not being to hard on the engine. Just my .02 .

Tigger, Eeyore & Roo · Mar 25th, 2005, 06:14 AM

I remember being the passenger in an old Mini being driven (four up) my a leaner driver going down a long and very steep hill with a quay side and the sea at the bottom. I asked her to stay in second gear to control the speed of the car and use her brakes to then stop it when necessary.

A car came up the hill and when she went to use the brakes they failed (turned out to be a bad seal in the brake master cylinder). Because it had been kept down to about 15-20mph I was just about able to stop it by pumping the hand brake. God knows what would have happened if she had depended on the brakes alone!

Although this was, thankfully, unusual - engine breaking is good news for safety; it keeps the brakes from getting too hot and then fading on a long down hill run and it also controls the speed much more consistently than using the brakes alone. It also makes it much harder to lock the front wheels under braking in a FWD car (non ABS equiped) as that would then involve having to stall the engine as well as locking the wheels. SO, safer all around.

As far as engine wear is concerned, if it means that you hold the engine at 3-4000 rpm for a short while, well, that's only what you would be doing when driving at 70-80mph anyway - so what's the difference?

Tigger.

PS Interestingly this is relavent to our tandem (built for the 3 of us!) that we use. It has four brakes; I use a V brake on the front and a cantilver on the back (reserved for ultimate stopping power) and Eeyore uses a 2nd V brake and a rear disc just for brake heat dissipation on a long decent. Similar principle really.

Tigger, Eeyore & Roo · Mar 25th, 2005, 06:27 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Max

They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light

You are kidding!

Please tell me you are kidding!!

Tigger.

M1N1GUN · Mar 25th, 2005, 07:31 AM

I like to use engine braking all the time - it feels more sporty.

Just remember to match your revs when downshifting as it will reduce strain on the clutch. (But you can't do this without a clutch.

)

Quote: Originally Posted by Max

They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light

I have done this rolling in neutral thing a few times, rolling down a hill & riding the brakes, solely from a fuel economy standpoint. My father once told me that this was not a good idea as the engine could stall for some reason, possibly causing the steering to lock?, reduced brakeforce, loss of power steering etc, leaving you with no control of your car!

mini vanilli · Mar 25th, 2005, 01:13 PM

these are fine examples of why i dont buy used cars.

ButtonIt · Mar 25th, 2005, 01:22 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Max

They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light

Almost right

When I learnt we were taught to stay in 4th gear while braking, then at the last minute (just before the engine starts to labour) dip the clutch and select neutral.

Once I passed my test my Dad taught me the benefits of engine braking.

The best part of enginee braking, especially when driving hard, is the exhaust pop

The worst part is the clutch slips a lot

and it puts a lot of stress on the engine mounts.

Funny, I was taught in a five geared car but was never allowed to go past 4

The instructor claimed it was a "cruising" gear for use on motorways..... Nutter. Still, my instructor only had one arm

which was fine untill I got a puncture on a driving lesson.

nonsequitur · Mar 26th, 2005, 05:01 AM

This is an interesting debate; thanks for posing the questions. Lots of little comments to generate some more discussion.

Quote: Originally Posted by ButtonIt

When I learnt we were taught to stay in 4th gear while braking, then at the last minute (just before the engine starts to labour) dip the clutch and select neutral.

That's goofy technique, although it's one way to simplify the driving instruction about watching for traffic versus worrying about exactly how to shift as you smash into the truck ahead of you. Teaching proper eyes up, attention ahead, think in front of the car driving stuff is difficult when the student is focused inside the car on clutch and gear shift lever.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo

Although this was, thankfully, unusual - engine breaking is good news for safety; it keeps the brakes from getting too hot and then fading on a long down hill run and it also controls the speed much more consistently than using the brakes alone.

True.

Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo

As far as engine wear is concerned, if it means that you hold the engine at 3-4000 rpm for a short while, well, that's only what you would be doing when driving at 70-80mph anyway - so what's the difference?

Very well said. The car is DESIGNED to be used, so have some fun with it!

Quote: Originally Posted by Frogeye58

Engine braking is a very safe way to control your speed on very steep declines.

True.

Quote: Originally Posted by Max

Us older drivers were taught to use engine braking in our youth
Today people are taught to drive and are taught not to

We've gotten too "safety" conscious; making life "simple" when it should be more "skilled".

Quote: Originally Posted by Max

However, the other very bad habit that those with manual trannies have is of "riding the clutch" when stopped at lights
When stopped at lights one should apply the handbrake and select neutral gear.

The throwout bearing wears significantly because of this habit. Clutch life falls away quickly. The only two reasons for a clutch are 1) to "break" the transmission of power long enough to permit a gear change, and 2) to get underway from a stop (feathering the jolt to the system that would happen without some way to slip a little bit).

Quote: Originally Posted by mini vanilli

yes, it stresses the engine. will it ruin it if you do it every now and then...no. but making it a habit could only be bad for your engine and drivetrain.

I don't agree with this part of the message. Engine braking produces a vacuum that draws some lubrication around the pistons (blowby) that is very useful to a proper engine breakin period. This is part of the reason for varying the engine rpm during the breakin period. Good engine people have told me that their experience says that a motor used aggressively (but smoothly) will last longer and deliver better performance than one driven only to church in town on Sunday.

Quote: Originally Posted by mini vanilli

engine = go[;] brakes = stop

This is correct for most normal driving but, as others here have said, there many situations where engine braking is an effective way to moderate your speed and to save your brakes from becoming overheated. Oh, it's fun too.

Quote: Originally Posted by yadda

This may be a dumb question...

It's an old statement, but true: "There aren't any [dumb questions]!"

Quote: Originally Posted by yadda

My question is ... does engine braking create stress on the engine and/or the transmission (especially the CVT)?

Any difference in applied force causes stress on the engine and drivetrain, BUT the car is designed to deal with stress, shocks, and use. The beauty of our drivetrain is that everything is monitored, and the out-of-bounds conditions (overrev, underrev, launch from stop shocks to the system, lugging, "dropping" the clutch, forgetting to disengage the clutch, ...; all of the difficult conditions introduced by a manual clutch are moderated, except the joy. So use it without worry.

Quote: Originally Posted by yadda

Is it gonna kill my drive chain in the long run if I use it too frequently?

No.
You don't have a "chain" in the ZF ecoTronic VT1F, it's a 24mm segmented steel push belt (torque is pushed from the Primary Pulley to the Secondary Pulley, in compression), as contrasted with the Audi CVT uses an LuK link chain (torque is pulled through the Secondary Pulley from the Primary Pulley, in tension).

Quote: Originally Posted by yadda

What does it do to the fuel economy?

Any driving habit that is not "calm" and "measured" and "gentle" will decrease economy from the maximum. Engine braking will decrease your fuel mileage, when compared to the decreased engine rpm delivered by the computer as a higher ratio in the CVT when you take your right foot off the gas.

pocketrocketowner · Mar 26th, 2005, 05:54 AM

When I am in racing mode, I use the brakes to slow down the car and select the gear that will allow me the fastest speed out of a corner. This usually results in a little engine braking action. Quite a bit different than slamming the baby into second and let the engine slow you down from 90 MPH.
Engine braking is a must on a steep hill, engine braking, like anything else in life, however, if over done can be VERY bad and even fatal.
The number of novice driver wannabees that have broken a rocker arm/thrown a rod/bent a valve/ and plain blown an engine while being cool race car drivers and downshifting is huge.

The Triptronic will not hurt car if you take it one speed at a time, and remember, the main reason you have brakes is to stop the car, the main reason you have an engine is to move the car.

vader · Mar 26th, 2005, 10:23 AM

When I was taught (not too many decades ago

) Engine braking was always used to slow down (well at least you changed down the gears). They still wanted you to hold the clutch in at traffic lights though (big big bad no no - if you like your main thrust bearing). Engine braking is a good skill to know though - I was had an old mini which had just had a few engine tweaks. I was driving back to the garage to get the head retightened when I tried to use the brakes - nada. Hmmm. OK, slow down with the gears - clutch - nada! A 30p hose had burst and I had no hydraulics. Managed to drive the last 10 miles by matching the ratios, and double declutching (without the clutch

) to engine brake. Got there (phew).

Anyway, back to our CVTs. The main reason for not engine braking in a manual, is clutch wear and posible engine damage due to mismatching the revs. If you double declutch, then there should be no problem - very little clutch slip, and the engine doesn't receive a sudden vaccuum - less chance of engine damage. The CVT will manage all that for you.

Advantages of CVT engine braking:

You can't over-rev,
There is no "sudden change", the CVT quickly changed between gears,
There is no slip in the CVT (if there is, then BIG problem - your CVT is probably almost dead anyway),
Provided you don't drive like Fangio and try to engine brake from 90 in 1st, it is probably kinder to the car (some brakes, some engine braking).
You get it anyway (unless you try to change into neutral as you coast up to traffic lights

)

Just my £0.0235p (including VAT)

Vader

am0eba · Mar 26th, 2005, 02:36 PM

This is a very interesting discussion, and FWIW, engine braking is a normal part of my driving routine with a manual transmission. Other folks have clearly voiced the reasons why I do this, so I feel no need to repeaet.

The one thing I can add to the discussion is that my 1999 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (AWD, 5-spd) owners manual recommended the use of engine braking!

I agree that it shouldn't be used exclusively, or abruptly, but it ceratinly does belong in the driving skills repertoire of anyone who operates a manual transmission.

By the way, it's also referred to as "compression-braking", and heavy trucks use it regularly to augment normal friction-braking systems.

_Dave_

ncdave · Mar 26th, 2005, 03:13 PM

Engine braking does not increase engine wear. You shift up through the gears when pulling away from a light and shift down through the gears when approaching a light or slowing for a corner (not that that happens much in a MINI

). I bet most of you are "engine braking" without even knowing it.

JJV-MA · Mar 26th, 2005, 04:14 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by ncdave

Engine braking does not increase engine wear.

I can't remember who said it, but I read a quotation from either a race car driver or a member of his pit crew that goes: "There is no such this thing as a 'free' rev."

Meaning: every rev above where the driver needs to be is going to cost incrementally more money. Everything else being equal, I'm willing to bet that an engine that spends most of its time at 3000RPM will last longer than an engine that spends most of its time at 4000RPM.

This all being said, I spend as much time as I can keeping our baby between 4000-5500RPM. It's just so much FUN.

Tigger, Eeyore & Roo · Mar 27th, 2005, 07:05 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by M1N1GUN

I have done this rolling in neutral thing a few times, rolling down a hill & riding the brakes, solely from a fuel economy standpoint.

Nice idea and I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you are actually using MORE fuel doing this!!

If you drive down hill in neutral the engine uses fuel just to keep idling. If you run down hill using engine braking then the fuel supply to the engine in any modern car is shut off and the only thing keeping the engine turning over is the road wheels rotating.

The end result is that fuel is used in neutral, no fuel used when left in gear! It surprised me when I found this out.

Tigger.

Tigger, Eeyore & Roo · Mar 27th, 2005, 07:40 PM

I've just been driving my MINI, heavily laden, up and down mountain passes in the Elan Valley in central Wales over the last few days. I hate to think how hot those brakes would have got (with all of the associated brake fade) if I'd not used engine braking to keep the speed in check.

Tigger.

PS Get over to the Elan Valley, it's great. I didn't see a single MINI there. You don't know what you're all missing....

minitoo · Mar 28th, 2005, 01:43 AM

OK, some of you have hit on it. Engine/compression braking is a good thing on long descents down a steep hill to prevent brake overheating and loss of control. However, I think the original question was specific to the CVT and related to stepping down through the gears in traffic when coming to a stop or slowing. Although, you may not see any catastrophic damage the laws of physics do not allow a free ride. To overcome your inertia you need to create friction and heat somewhere. Either in your brakes or in your drivetrain. Although it is no doubt slight you are transferring additional thrust and heat to various drivetrain bearings and components that can only result in increased wear over time. Whether this is significant enough to you to want to alter your driving habits is up to you. At times this downshifting is necessary and proper driving (hill descents, racing, fun, etc.) but probably not as a matter of course in the interest of long term drivetrain longevity.

Also, one important thing that hasn't been mentioned is that excessive downshifting to slow in traffic doesn't light up your brake lights so the following driver knows what you are up to. Might be only a matter of time before you get tagged.

jazmini · Mar 28th, 2005, 12:39 PM

I've never heard of anyone actually getting a ticket for slowing down without using their brakes so their brake lights don't come on. In my lifetime (I'm 52), I've heard several people say this could happen, but I've not seen it. Not saying it hasn't ever happened though. If I were to get a ticket for that, I'd contest it and go to court, and I think I would win that one. I've never heard of a law saying you must flash your brake light when slowing, but I'm in the states not Europe, although I got a license in Europe back in the mid 80's but don't remember anything about that. It seems logical you want the person behind you to know of your intentions, but they should not be following too close anyway. If you see that they are, then you should tap your brake, but you can do that and still downshift. Actually, you can use your brakes and downshift at the same time, as we have no clutch to have to push.

I like using the engine for braking, as it's fun and helps slow the vehicle. I've had several motorcycles when young and always used engine braking. You have more control over the vehicle and are always in the right gear. So, you are faster. For example, if you are slowing for a stop light, and in the process of downshifting, when the light suddenly changes to green, then you can accelerate immediately in whatever lower gear you are in, and continue with upshifting. So the response is immediate. It's the difference between driving for sport or just out for a leisurly drive. Most of my driving is just taking it easy (i.e., to work and back), but when I want to have fun, I will shift the MINI including downshifting. It's more of a personal choice as to how you like to drive. It probably causes a little more stress on the engine, but I don't think it does any real harm, unless you downshift too early which raises the rpm's. For example, if I'm feeling real sporty, I'll down shift at 4,000 rpm's, otherwise it could be 3,000 rpm's.

Downshifting causes the pistons (and their rings) to go up and down inside the engine a little more than if just coasting (as they will be at a higher rpm), so that will cause slightly more wear, but I think engines last for so many miles, that this should not be a real concern. Of more concern is people who live in big cities and spend a lot of time at traffic lights. Even though that's just idling, it also causes extra wear on the engine (because if you didn't catch the light you would be farther along in your journey). It's possible to have a car with 10,000 miles on it, but if those miles are from heavy stop and go driving from stop light to stop light, that could equate to only 5,000 miles or 7,500 miles from someone else who lives in the country. So, I think there are other important factors to be concerned about for engine longevity.

am0eba · Mar 28th, 2005, 05:45 PM

jazmini - I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed for slowing down without using their brakes either, but at least in Massachusetts and California, the law states that drivers MUST signal when slowing down or stopping. If you're using the brakes and they are functioning properly, the brake lights automatically do this signalling for you. If you use the handbrake or compression braking, you are obliged to signal somehow, whether by tapping the brake pedal lightly, or using the appropriate hand signal. (Remember those?)

I always tap the brakes if there's a car following behind me, even when just using the regular brakes, to notify an otherwise unpredictable stop or decelleration when warranted. A couple of quick taps draws the attention of a driver otherwise occupied, and makes for safer conditions all around.

Having said that - and donning my flameproof undergarments - if I'm being relentlessly tailgated by someone in traffic and nothing else has worked, I will sometimes (always trying to maintain a safety margin) use sudden un-signalled compression braking to force the tailgater to "hit the binders" (i.e., slow down and put some space between us), then just as suddenly zoom away in a lower gear. (The safety margin involves allowing enough room betwen me and the tailgater for him to react, and for me to get away in case he can't or won't react, and enough room in front to allow me to accelerate away and deal with any contingencies.)

For those wondering - yes I learned to drive in Boston, where siganlling your intentions while driving is considered to be weakness, and allowing room for someone to change lanes is so alien, that most drivers can't believe you're not up to something sinister (sorry all you left-handers - I didn't coin this use of the word!) if you do...

Flamesuit off now. I guess my point (yeeesss?) is that the driver should feel obliged to consider tthe vehicles and drivers around him at all times and act accordingly...

_Dave_

MINI-Morgan · Mar 28th, 2005, 06:28 PM

Engine bracking is good! You mantain better control of the car and your in a better position to reaction to changes in conditions This is one thing they drill into you on the Advanced Driving and Police training courses. But...... yes it does increase engine wear. but its nothing much to worry about unless your gonna keep your car to 300,000miles or something. It also increased wear on the gearbox....but as long as its filled properly with oil its once again so tiny that I wouldnt worry about it.

Mar 25th, 2005, 03:00 AM	#1
yadda MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Mar 2005 Local Time: 05:19 PM Posts: 4 Offline	Engine Braking - good or bad? This may be a dumb question for the more mechanically inclined - please bear with me I just discovered the joy of engine braking with my 05 MC using steptronic mode. (Never drove a stickshift before so this whole thing is new to me). By actively downshifting I am often able to make traffic stops with little or no braking. It's a lot of fun and I bet it saves a lot of wear on the brake pads. My question is ... does engine braking create stress on the engine and/or the transmission (especially the CVT)? Is it gonna kill my drive chain in the long run if I use it too frequently? What does it do to the fuel economy? Brakes may be expensive to replace but they are still a lot cheaper than a new Engine

Mar 25th, 2005, 04:45 AM	#3 (permalink)
Frogeye58 Which way to the twisties Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Diego, CA Local Time: 01:19 PM Posts: 135 Offline	engine braking breaking? Engine braking is a very safe way to control your speed on very steep declines. If you lose your brakes going down a mountain .....well you know what will happen. I've always downshifted to control my speed and or to set up for a turn and power through it. I think that if you balance your engine braking with your brakes, you are not being to hard on the engine. Just my .02 . Frogeye58@hotmail.com 1958 AN5L Mk1, 2005 MCSA http://www.mini2.com/gallery/personal/24098/53165.jpg

Mar 25th, 2005, 06:14 AM	#4 (permalink)
Tigger, Eeyore & Roo I'm Back! My Classifieds Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kernow, near England Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 4,631 Offline	I remember being the passenger in an old Mini being driven (four up) my a leaner driver going down a long and very steep hill with a quay side and the sea at the bottom. I asked her to stay in second gear to control the speed of the car and use her brakes to then stop it when necessary. A car came up the hill and when she went to use the brakes they failed (turned out to be a bad seal in the brake master cylinder). Because it had been kept down to about 15-20mph I was just about able to stop it by pumping the hand brake. God knows what would have happened if she had depended on the brakes alone! Although this was, thankfully, unusual - engine breaking is good news for safety; it keeps the brakes from getting too hot and then fading on a long down hill run and it also controls the speed much more consistently than using the brakes alone. It also makes it much harder to lock the front wheels under braking in a FWD car (non ABS equiped) as that would then involve having to stall the engine as well as locking the wheels. SO, safer all around. As far as engine wear is concerned, if it means that you hold the engine at 3-4000 rpm for a short while, well, that's only what you would be doing when driving at 70-80mph anyway - so what's the difference? Tigger. PS Interestingly this is relavent to our tandem (built for the 3 of us!) that we use. It has four brakes; I use a V brake on the front and a cantilver on the back (reserved for ultimate stopping power) and Eeyore uses a 2nd V brake and a rear disc just for brake heat dissipation on a long decent. Similar principle really. Unintimated and I'm back!! For sunshine, fun and Cornish Pasties: New MINI Kernow Cornish Oggy Run 2009! Last edited by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo : Mar 25th, 2005 at 07:10 AM.

Mar 25th, 2005, 06:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
Tigger, Eeyore & Roo I'm Back! My Classifieds Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kernow, near England Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 4,631 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Max They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light You are kidding! Please tell me you are kidding!! Tigger. Unintimated and I'm back!! For sunshine, fun and Cornish Pasties: New MINI Kernow Cornish Oggy Run 2009!

Mar 25th, 2005, 01:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
ButtonIt The Disorganiser My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Waiting for others Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 15,546 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Max They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light Almost right When I learnt we were taught to stay in 4th gear while braking, then at the last minute (just before the engine starts to labour) dip the clutch and select neutral. Once I passed my test my Dad taught me the benefits of engine braking. The best part of enginee braking, especially when driving hard, is the exhaust pop The worst part is the clutch slips a lot and it puts a lot of stress on the engine mounts. Funny, I was taught in a five geared car but was never allowed to go past 4 The instructor claimed it was a "cruising" gear for use on motorways..... Nutter. Still, my instructor only had one arm which was fine untill I got a puncture on a driving lesson. Sponsor our Rickshaw team, please click here for info

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Mar 25th, 2005, 03:13 AM	#2 (permalink)
mini vanilli MINI2 Regular Join Date: Dec 2004 Local Time: 04:19 PM Posts: 158 Offline	why not just use your brakes. they are cheaper to replace. and thats what they are there for. yes, it stresses the engine. will it ruin it if you do it every now and then...no. but making it a habit could only be bad for your engine and drivetrain. engine = go brakes = stop

Mar 25th, 2005, 07:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
M1N1GUN Rubber MINI Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sydney Local Time: 07:19 AM Posts: 117 Offline	I like to use engine braking all the time - it feels more sporty. Just remember to match your revs when downshifting as it will reduce strain on the clutch. (But you can't do this without a clutch. ) Quote: Originally Posted by Max They are taught to move to neutral gear from 4th and use brakes when appraoching a stop light I have done this rolling in neutral thing a few times, rolling down a hill & riding the brakes, solely from a fuel economy standpoint. My father once told me that this was not a good idea as the engine could stall for some reason, possibly causing the steering to lock?, reduced brakeforce, loss of power steering etc, leaving you with no control of your car!

Mar 25th, 2005, 01:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
mini vanilli MINI2 Regular Join Date: Dec 2004 Local Time: 04:19 PM Posts: 158 Offline	these are fine examples of why i dont buy used cars.

Mar 26th, 2005, 05:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
nonsequitur Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Seattle area, WA Local Time: 02:19 PM Posts: 1,466 Offline	This is an interesting debate; thanks for posing the questions. Lots of little comments to generate some more discussion. Quote: Originally Posted by ButtonIt When I learnt we were taught to stay in 4th gear while braking, then at the last minute (just before the engine starts to labour) dip the clutch and select neutral. That's goofy technique, although it's one way to simplify the driving instruction about watching for traffic versus worrying about exactly how to shift as you smash into the truck ahead of you. Teaching proper eyes up, attention ahead, think in front of the car driving stuff is difficult when the student is focused inside the car on clutch and gear shift lever. Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo Although this was, thankfully, unusual - engine breaking is good news for safety; it keeps the brakes from getting too hot and then fading on a long down hill run and it also controls the speed much more consistently than using the brakes alone. True. Quote: Originally Posted by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo As far as engine wear is concerned, if it means that you hold the engine at 3-4000 rpm for a short while, well, that's only what you would be doing when driving at 70-80mph anyway - so what's the difference? Very well said. The car is DESIGNED to be used, so have some fun with it! Quote: Originally Posted by Frogeye58 Engine braking is a very safe way to control your speed on very steep declines. True. Quote: Originally Posted by Max Us older drivers were taught to use engine braking in our youth Today people are taught to drive and are taught not to We've gotten too "safety" conscious; making life "simple" when it should be more "skilled". Quote: Originally Posted by Max However, the other very bad habit that those with manual trannies have is of "riding the clutch" when stopped at lights When stopped at lights one should apply the handbrake and select neutral gear. The throwout bearing wears significantly because of this habit. Clutch life falls away quickly. The only two reasons for a clutch are 1) to "break" the transmission of power long enough to permit a gear change, and 2) to get underway from a stop (feathering the jolt to the system that would happen without some way to slip a little bit). Quote: Originally Posted by mini vanilli yes, it stresses the engine. will it ruin it if you do it every now and then...no. but making it a habit could only be bad for your engine and drivetrain. I don't agree with this part of the message. Engine braking produces a vacuum that draws some lubrication around the pistons (blowby) that is very useful to a proper engine breakin period. This is part of the reason for varying the engine rpm during the breakin period. Good engine people have told me that their experience says that a motor used aggressively (but smoothly) will last longer and deliver better performance than one driven only to church in town on Sunday. Quote: Originally Posted by mini vanilli engine = go[;] brakes = stop This is correct for most normal driving but, as others here have said, there many situations where engine braking is an effective way to moderate your speed and to save your brakes from becoming overheated. Oh, it's fun too. Quote: Originally Posted by yadda This may be a dumb question... It's an old statement, but true: "There aren't any [dumb questions]!" Quote: Originally Posted by yadda My question is ... does engine braking create stress on the engine and/or the transmission (especially the CVT)? Any difference in applied force causes stress on the engine and drivetrain, BUT the car is designed to deal with stress, shocks, and use. The beauty of our drivetrain is that everything is monitored, and the out-of-bounds conditions (overrev, underrev, launch from stop shocks to the system, lugging, "dropping" the clutch, forgetting to disengage the clutch, ...; all of the difficult conditions introduced by a manual clutch are moderated, except the joy. So use it without worry. Quote: Originally Posted by yadda Is it gonna kill my drive chain in the long run if I use it too frequently? No. You don't have a "chain" in the ZF ecoTronic VT1F, it's a 24mm segmented steel push belt (torque is pushed from the Primary Pulley to the Secondary Pulley, in compression), as contrasted with the Audi CVT uses an LuK link chain (torque is pulled through the Secondary Pulley from the Primary Pulley, in tension). Quote: Originally Posted by yadda What does it do to the fuel economy? Any driving habit that is not "calm" and "measured" and "gentle" will decrease economy from the maximum. Engine braking will decrease your fuel mileage, when compared to the decreased engine rpm delivered by the computer as a higher ratio in the CVT when you take your right foot off the gas. '02 MINI Cooper CVT (prod. date: 6/12/2002; Indi Blue/Black roof, R-81 7-hole 15x5.5" or NZO 16x6.5") '67 Austin Cooper S 1275 Mk1 (build date: 6/26/1967; Tartan Red/Black Roof, Minilite 10x4.5" or 10x6.0")

Mar 26th, 2005, 05:54 AM	#10 (permalink)
pocketrocketowner Best Personal Regards Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ile de Vaux, France Local Time: 11:19 PM Posts: 2,037 Offline	When I am in racing mode, I use the brakes to slow down the car and select the gear that will allow me the fastest speed out of a corner. This usually results in a little engine braking action. Quite a bit different than slamming the baby into second and let the engine slow you down from 90 MPH. Engine braking is a must on a steep hill, engine braking, like anything else in life, however, if over done can be VERY bad and even fatal. The number of novice driver wannabees that have broken a rocker arm/thrown a rod/bent a valve/ and plain blown an engine while being cool race car drivers and downshifting is huge. The Triptronic will not hurt car if you take it one speed at a time, and remember, the main reason you have brakes is to stop the car, the main reason you have an engine is to move the car.

Mar 26th, 2005, 10:23 AM	#11 (permalink)
vader MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 10 Offline	When I was taught (not too many decades ago ) Engine braking was always used to slow down (well at least you changed down the gears). They still wanted you to hold the clutch in at traffic lights though (big big bad no no - if you like your main thrust bearing). Engine braking is a good skill to know though - I was had an old mini which had just had a few engine tweaks. I was driving back to the garage to get the head retightened when I tried to use the brakes - nada. Hmmm. OK, slow down with the gears - clutch - nada! A 30p hose had burst and I had no hydraulics. Managed to drive the last 10 miles by matching the ratios, and double declutching (without the clutch ) to engine brake. Got there (phew). Anyway, back to our CVTs. The main reason for not engine braking in a manual, is clutch wear and posible engine damage due to mismatching the revs. If you double declutch, then there should be no problem - very little clutch slip, and the engine doesn't receive a sudden vaccuum - less chance of engine damage. The CVT will manage all that for you. Advantages of CVT engine braking: You can't over-rev, There is no "sudden change", the CVT quickly changed between gears, There is no slip in the CVT (if there is, then BIG problem - your CVT is probably almost dead anyway), Provided you don't drive like Fangio and try to engine brake from 90 in 1st, it is probably kinder to the car (some brakes, some engine braking). You get it anyway (unless you try to change into neutral as you coast up to traffic lights ) Just my £0.0235p (including VAT) Vader

Mar 26th, 2005, 02:36 PM	#12 (permalink)
am0eba the ZERO is silent! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Pedro, CA Local Time: 02:19 PM Posts: 256 Offline	This is a very interesting discussion, and FWIW, engine braking is a normal part of my driving routine with a manual transmission. Other folks have clearly voiced the reasons why I do this, so I feel no need to repeaet. The one thing I can add to the discussion is that my 1999 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (AWD, 5-spd) owners manual recommended the use of engine braking! I agree that it shouldn't be used exclusively, or abruptly, but it ceratinly does belong in the driving skills repertoire of anyone who operates a manual transmission. By the way, it's also referred to as "compression-braking", and heavy trucks use it regularly to augment normal friction-braking systems. _Dave_ "Murray" 2005 MCSC (click here for more) "F" the ineffable!

Mar 26th, 2005, 03:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
ncdave MINI2 Senior Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raleigh, NC Local Time: 05:19 PM Posts: 654 Offline	Engine braking does not increase engine wear. You shift up through the gears when pulling away from a light and shift down through the gears when approaching a light or slowing for a corner (not that that happens much in a MINI ). I bet most of you are "engine braking" without even knowing it.

Mar 26th, 2005, 04:14 PM	#14 (permalink)
JJV-MA MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Middleton, MA Local Time: 05:19 PM Posts: 20 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by ncdave Engine braking does not increase engine wear. I can't remember who said it, but I read a quotation from either a race car driver or a member of his pit crew that goes: "There is no such this thing as a 'free' rev." Meaning: every rev above where the driver needs to be is going to cost incrementally more money. Everything else being equal, I'm willing to bet that an engine that spends most of its time at 3000RPM will last longer than an engine that spends most of its time at 4000RPM. This all being said, I spend as much time as I can keeping our baby between 4000-5500RPM. It's just so much FUN. '03 Audi RS 6 (his) '01 BMW X5 3.0 (family truckster) '04 MINI Cooper CVT (hers)

Mar 27th, 2005, 07:05 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tigger, Eeyore & Roo I'm Back! My Classifieds Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kernow, near England Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 4,631 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by M1N1GUN I have done this rolling in neutral thing a few times, rolling down a hill & riding the brakes, solely from a fuel economy standpoint. Nice idea and I appreciate what you are trying to do, but you are actually using MORE fuel doing this!! If you drive down hill in neutral the engine uses fuel just to keep idling. If you run down hill using engine braking then the fuel supply to the engine in any modern car is shut off and the only thing keeping the engine turning over is the road wheels rotating. The end result is that fuel is used in neutral, no fuel used when left in gear! It surprised me when I found this out. Tigger. Unintimated and I'm back!! For sunshine, fun and Cornish Pasties: New MINI Kernow Cornish Oggy Run 2009! Last edited by Tigger, Eeyore & Roo : Mar 27th, 2005 at 07:37 PM.

Mar 27th, 2005, 07:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
Tigger, Eeyore & Roo I'm Back! My Classifieds Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kernow, near England Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 4,631 Offline	I've just been driving my MINI, heavily laden, up and down mountain passes in the Elan Valley in central Wales over the last few days. I hate to think how hot those brakes would have got (with all of the associated brake fade) if I'd not used engine braking to keep the speed in check. Tigger. PS Get over to the Elan Valley, it's great. I didn't see a single MINI there. You don't know what you're all missing.... Unintimated and I'm back!! For sunshine, fun and Cornish Pasties: New MINI Kernow Cornish Oggy Run 2009!

Mar 28th, 2005, 01:43 AM	#17 (permalink)
minitoo MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Klamath Falls, OR Local Time: 12:19 PM Posts: 31 Offline	OK, some of you have hit on it. Engine/compression braking is a good thing on long descents down a steep hill to prevent brake overheating and loss of control. However, I think the original question was specific to the CVT and related to stepping down through the gears in traffic when coming to a stop or slowing. Although, you may not see any catastrophic damage the laws of physics do not allow a free ride. To overcome your inertia you need to create friction and heat somewhere. Either in your brakes or in your drivetrain. Although it is no doubt slight you are transferring additional thrust and heat to various drivetrain bearings and components that can only result in increased wear over time. Whether this is significant enough to you to want to alter your driving habits is up to you. At times this downshifting is necessary and proper driving (hill descents, racing, fun, etc.) but probably not as a matter of course in the interest of long term drivetrain longevity. Also, one important thing that hasn't been mentioned is that excessive downshifting to slow in traffic doesn't light up your brake lights so the following driver knows what you are up to. Might be only a matter of time before you get tagged.

Mar 28th, 2005, 12:39 PM	#18 (permalink)
jazmini MINI2 Newbie Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Washington DC area Local Time: 05:19 PM Posts: 178 Offline	I've never heard of anyone actually getting a ticket for slowing down without using their brakes so their brake lights don't come on. In my lifetime (I'm 52), I've heard several people say this could happen, but I've not seen it. Not saying it hasn't ever happened though. If I were to get a ticket for that, I'd contest it and go to court, and I think I would win that one. I've never heard of a law saying you must flash your brake light when slowing, but I'm in the states not Europe, although I got a license in Europe back in the mid 80's but don't remember anything about that. It seems logical you want the person behind you to know of your intentions, but they should not be following too close anyway. If you see that they are, then you should tap your brake, but you can do that and still downshift. Actually, you can use your brakes and downshift at the same time, as we have no clutch to have to push. I like using the engine for braking, as it's fun and helps slow the vehicle. I've had several motorcycles when young and always used engine braking. You have more control over the vehicle and are always in the right gear. So, you are faster. For example, if you are slowing for a stop light, and in the process of downshifting, when the light suddenly changes to green, then you can accelerate immediately in whatever lower gear you are in, and continue with upshifting. So the response is immediate. It's the difference between driving for sport or just out for a leisurly drive. Most of my driving is just taking it easy (i.e., to work and back), but when I want to have fun, I will shift the MINI including downshifting. It's more of a personal choice as to how you like to drive. It probably causes a little more stress on the engine, but I don't think it does any real harm, unless you downshift too early which raises the rpm's. For example, if I'm feeling real sporty, I'll down shift at 4,000 rpm's, otherwise it could be 3,000 rpm's. Downshifting causes the pistons (and their rings) to go up and down inside the engine a little more than if just coasting (as they will be at a higher rpm), so that will cause slightly more wear, but I think engines last for so many miles, that this should not be a real concern. Of more concern is people who live in big cities and spend a lot of time at traffic lights. Even though that's just idling, it also causes extra wear on the engine (because if you didn't catch the light you would be farther along in your journey). It's possible to have a car with 10,000 miles on it, but if those miles are from heavy stop and go driving from stop light to stop light, that could equate to only 5,000 miles or 7,500 miles from someone else who lives in the country. So, I think there are other important factors to be concerned about for engine longevity. "Bluebird" 2004 IB/W MC

Mar 28th, 2005, 05:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
am0eba the ZERO is silent! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: San Pedro, CA Local Time: 02:19 PM Posts: 256 Offline	jazmini - I've never heard of anyone getting ticketed for slowing down without using their brakes either, but at least in Massachusetts and California, the law states that drivers MUST signal when slowing down or stopping. If you're using the brakes and they are functioning properly, the brake lights automatically do this signalling for you. If you use the handbrake or compression braking, you are obliged to signal somehow, whether by tapping the brake pedal lightly, or using the appropriate hand signal. (Remember those?) I always tap the brakes if there's a car following behind me, even when just using the regular brakes, to notify an otherwise unpredictable stop or decelleration when warranted. A couple of quick taps draws the attention of a driver otherwise occupied, and makes for safer conditions all around. Having said that - and donning my flameproof undergarments - if I'm being relentlessly tailgated by someone in traffic and nothing else has worked, I will sometimes (always trying to maintain a safety margin) use sudden un-signalled compression braking to force the tailgater to "hit the binders" (i.e., slow down and put some space between us), then just as suddenly zoom away in a lower gear. (The safety margin involves allowing enough room betwen me and the tailgater for him to react, and for me to get away in case he can't or won't react, and enough room in front to allow me to accelerate away and deal with any contingencies.) For those wondering - yes I learned to drive in Boston, where siganlling your intentions while driving is considered to be weakness, and allowing room for someone to change lanes is so alien, that most drivers can't believe you're not up to something sinister (sorry all you left-handers - I didn't coin this use of the word!) if you do... Flamesuit off now. I guess my point (yeeesss?) is that the driver should feel obliged to consider tthe vehicles and drivers around him at all times and act accordingly... _Dave_ "Murray" 2005 MCSC (click here for more) "F" the ineffable!

Mar 28th, 2005, 06:28 PM	#20 (permalink)
MINI-Morgan MINI Obsessed... My Classifieds Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Southampton, Hants Local Time: 10:19 PM Posts: 4,770 Offline	Engine bracking is good! You mantain better control of the car and your in a better position to reaction to changes in conditions This is one thing they drill into you on the Advanced Driving and Police training courses. But...... yes it does increase engine wear. but its nothing much to worry about unless your gonna keep your car to 300,000miles or something. It also increased wear on the gearbox....but as long as its filled properly with oil its once again so tiny that I wouldnt worry about it.