[///ACS330Ci]

What are the pros and cons of each of these options?

Ultimately, which offers the best bang for the buck?

[obehave]

Quote: Originally Posted by ///ACS330Ci

What are the pros and cons of each of these options?

Ultimately, which offers the best bang for the buck?

Very generally speaking the air to air will give you better HP per dollar.
The HP gains are close. The decision is based more on how you use the car than what design is better.

[///ACS330Ci]

Quote: Originally Posted by obehave

Very generally speaking the air to air will give you better HP per dollar.
The HP gains are close. The decision is based more on how you use the car than what design is better.

Let's get technical. I've done searches on this subject, but haven't found any really good information on how the two compare.

FWIW, I'm now located in Arizona (hot&dry) and occasionally will track the car.

[pocketrocketowner]

The more you cool that air the better HP you'll get. I am pretty sure that comparing proper to proper ICs, the water/air unit would give you better and more usable power.

Bang for the buck wise, the A/A is miles ahead which is why I installed a GRS unit.

[///ACS330Ci]

Quote: Originally Posted by pocketrocketowner

Bang for the buck wise, the A/A is miles ahead which is why I installed a GRS unit.

I'm not sure I agree. Webb Motorsports sells the Alta air-to-air for $840 and their own water-to-air intercooler for $1050. To me $200 more, when we're already talking that much money, doesn't make it miles ahead on it's cost alone IMHO. I was hoping we could talk more about the technical pros and cons of each unit.

[obehave]

Once again the question is what do you plan to do with the car?

In brief;
a2w will cycle temps more slowly due to increased thermal mass.
a2a will be the opposite.

a2w also has higher maintenance requirements and installation is more complex.

[GRSmotorsport]

If you decide to go the larger intercooler route, these are relatively easy to install - 40 minutes or so. The advantages with these is you get a bigger surface area to help keep the charged air cool when on the move, plus are cheaper to buy as obehave says. The down side is the size of the hole in the scoop, but most manufactures of after market intercoolers have designed intercoolers and diffusers to get maximum air to their intercoolers to make them more efficient than the original.

Charge coolers are a more complex piece of equipment as there are more parts involved i.e pre-rad, charger cooler unit, water pump, silicone pipe extra. and will take a lot more time to fit, between 3-5 hrs or so.The charge cooler unit has a matrix's with a water jacket around it, very similar to an intercooler core. As the water flows through, it takes the heat away. The disadvantage with this is price, and heat soak from the water when stopped in traffic as there is no air going through the pre-rad to cool the water going around the system. Once on the move it can take sometime for the water to cool down to make the charge cooler work properly, where as with the intercooler the recovery rate is much quicker.One other thing worth noting is they are limited to the amount of boost they can cope with. However I know a lot of people in the USA use charge coolers with great results. Charge coolers would be good for drag racing, as you can put ice cold water in the reservoir/water system giving instant cooling for a short period of time.

Charge coolers were all the rage in the UK 10 years ago, but intercooler core design has move further forward making them very efficient.

[///ACS330Ci]

Thanks Graham.

One more question ... is one more prone to having a pressure drop than the other or is that solely a function of physical size?

TIA

[obehave]

Quote: Originally Posted by ///ACS330Ci

Thanks Graham.

One more question ... is one more prone to having a pressure drop than the other or is that solely a function of physical size?

TIA

It's a function of design/engineering.
Grahams unit has very little pressure drop over the OEM unit. That's why I bought one.

Here's a link to a good writeup about Graham's IC

[GRSmotorsport]

Every intercooler, or charge cooler whether its the original or after market will have a pressure drop when measured between the inlet to the outlet pipes. A well designed intercooler/charge cooler will have a minimal pressure drop.

The bigger the intercooler the more pressure drop can be experienced, but larger intercoolers can produce more cooling. Its swings and round abouts really.......

[pocketrocketowner]

Have you ever looked at the Nuzzo Motorsports intercoolers? they are absolutely gigantic, as they cover the whole front of the car! Not practical for the street.

[OldRick]

Just for the record, a larger intercooler can also have less pressure drop than a smaller one, if, for example, it uses the same internal tube design as the smaller one, but adds more or larger tubes.

It's just a question of how much turbulence and restriction the internal design produces and how well the air is cooled while going through it.

[///ACS330Ci]

OK, I think I've decided to go with a larger air-to-air, so which one is the mutt's nutz?

[OldRick]

I thought I'd be installing an Alta IC on our club's Mod Day, but a good deal of reading has convinced me that a) there aren't really any good-fitting ones out there yet, and b) the power improvement is pretty minimal.

[obehave]

Quote: Originally Posted by ///ACS330Ci

OK, I think I've decided to go with a larger air-to-air, so which one is the mutt's nutz?

According to Randy Webb's testing the GRS outscored the ALTA.
I have a GRS unit and am happy with it.
The GTT unit is nice as well but requires a bit more installation work.

[OldRick]

Hard to believe that one as thick as the GRS fits.

I'm not an intercooler designer, but I've read that having a core more than an inch or so thick is past the point of diminshing returns - that most of the cooling happens in the first inch of thickness, as cooling air gets heated quickly while passing through.

The major benefit of additional thickness then becomes less pressure drop, but one doesn't get quite as much cooling, since the deeper part of the IC remains warmer.

At any rate, the difference is probably pretty small, and I'm getting a great deal through our club.

[smallpackage]

I have the GRS that I got from Randy, it fits well and works great. even after hard driving (with 15% pulley) the outlet is cool enough that you can lay your hand on it.

In the a2a vs a2w, the air to air will always be the lightest.