[GTT 280]

Hi all.

I have an issue here.

I have a JCW with flow manifold etc.coming in at 220bhp (approx).
My mate has a Seat Ibiza 1.8T chipped, coming in at about 215 bhp.

His toque is 242lb, mine is 188lbs.

We are both as fast on the road. but he says that's coz his is 'broken' and when it is fixed will be noticeably faster.

So, what's the crack - do i need to get the 270bhp mod from GTT (what is the torque for that by the way) - or do i need to get a new car ???

all advice required !!! I am fighting the corner of the MINI here...

[brady]

that vag 1.8t engine has always been known to produce a lot of torque, particularly when they have been tuned, would be very difficult to match in terms of torque, but id have thought your mini would still be quicker ?? not sure about the torque figures for gtt 270 mini but im pretty sure it would blow the ibiza off the road

[GTT 280]

Quote: Originally Posted by brady

that vag 1.8t engine has always been known to produce a lot of torque, particularly when they have been tuned, would be very difficult to match in terms of torque, but id have thought your mini would still be quicker ?? not sure about the torque figures for gtt 270 mini but im pretty sure it would blow the ibiza off the road

Thanks.
that makes me feel better.

:-D

[RedUn]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooper S Works

Hi all.

I have an issue here.

I have a JCW with flow manifold etc.coming in at 220bhp (approx).
My mate has a Seat Ibiza 1.8T chipped, coming in at about 215 bhp.

His toque is 242lb, mine is 188lbs.

We are both as fast on the road. but he says that's coz his is 'broken' and when it is fixed will be noticeably faster.

So, what's the crack - do i need to get the 270bhp mod from GTT (what is the torque for that by the way) - or do i need to get a new car ???

all advice required !!! I am fighting the corner of the MINI here...

just wait for the bends

in all fairness tho I would expect the two to be quite close

[Paul Webster]

torque is what accelerates a vehicle, you will have better acceleration from 1000rpm and up because of supercharger not having any lag.

Though on and out and out drag race you would probably using from 5000 to 7000 so who ever is producing the most torque there and has the better power to weight ratio will win.

[pocketrocketowner]

One needs to remember that the ONLY thing you can measure in an engine is TORQUE. Horsepower is a mathematical calculation based on the torque at a given RPM.

Old gits like me have always heard: "HP sells cars, torque wins motor races"

You need to compare torque values across the RPM range (the torque curve)in order to gauge relative performance, not just the peak torque value, cuz it is only given for a given RPM.
Hope this helps.....

[bimini]

Torque is a big by-product of engine size...so the extra 200cc's will be helping the Seat there. The rest could be down to the turbo perhaps being more torquey than a supercharger because it may provide more torque boost at peak torque than a supercharger which may provide more torque boost further up the rev range where there was less torque to start with...and it could be a lower reving engine, engines which rev lower typically have designs which benefit torque more ...and piston amounts and configuration can also benefit torque production...a straight 6 or V8 will be more torquey than a straight 4 L v L due to the over lap.

Some cars like the mini have engines that are tuned go like spanked angry wasps, some cars have engines that are designed to perform like birds wings...torque is the measurement of how well they could pick up a brick, not how fast they speed through the air without one.
Manufacturers often design somewhere in between, so it can be hard to just say that one car should perform the same just because the CC's are the in the same area and so is their BHP.
The best solution to torque is a bigger engine and/or configuration...v8 m5 mini conversion should do the trick.

I wouldnt worry about it, if your keeping up with him on the road then its probably down to the engine performing better in other areas of the rev range, handling or better driving (that would be one to needle him back with...)

I hope this hasn't been a case of trying to teach grandma...excuse me if it has

[twouptons]

Quote: Originally Posted by pocketrocketowner

Old gits like me have always heard: "HP sells cars, torque wins motor races"

You need to compare torque values across the RPM range (the torque curve)in order to gauge relative performance, not just the peak torque value, cuz it is only given for a given RPM.
Hope this helps.....

This is why in Formula 1, the cars use big honking diesels with lots of torque and very little horsepower, because it makes them go faster oh, wait...

The "high torque" engines also produce a lot of power at those low RPMs (relatively speaking), and you can look at it that way, too, since you can get the power from torque and RPM. Once you have torque and rpm, you can pretty much use torque and power interchangably – as long as you have that rpm number to tell you how fast you're spinning. I can make 1600lb-ft of torque on my MINI with a wrench and a six-foot cheater bar – at something like 15 rpm...but it accelerates much better with its engine

pocketrocketowner is right, the torque values across the RPM range are the most important, but they also have to be taken in kind with gearing and tire/wheel size. You can multiply torque with a transmission or a change in tire diameter, but that may not make you go any faster...

And I can measure power at the wheels with a Cd, frontal area, and speed

-Eric

[supercharged99]

i had a SEAT IBIZA CUPRA R (180 bhp ) LIMITED EDITION.on a 51 reg.

this car could do 160 mph (yeah spank me if you want ) when i was running my mini '200 bhp,the mini felt quicker.

a guy ran a 280 bhp ibiza at YORK DRAGWAY, and my 260 bhp mini did better runs than him.

those cars will outrun the mini near the top end.
if you're both doing 90 mph the SEAT will probably start pulling away.

[RedUn]

Quote: Originally Posted by supercharged99

i had a SEAT IBIZA CUPRA R (180 bhp ) LIMITED EDITION.on a 51 reg.

this car could do 160 mph (yeah spank me if you want ) when i was running my mini '200 bhp,the mini felt quicker.

a guy ran a 280 bhp ibiza at YORK DRAGWAY, and my 260 bhp mini did better runs than him.

those cars will outrun the mini near the top end.
if you're both doing 90 mph the SEAT will probably start pulling away.

all down to the mini's lovely aerodynamics

brick comes to mind

[Idontbrakeforcorners]

in respons to being able to calculate power at the wheels, ill actually giver some calculations

the get the drag force
Fd=.5(DPA)V^2
D= drag coefficiant
P= row density of object your traveling through (air)= 1.29
A= cross-sectional area
V=velocity

P=FV
p=power
f=force
v=velocity

power is measured in watts and 746watts=1HP

THis is assuming that there is no friction (i know )
But hey, assuming your in a vacuum, thats the HP of your car!

[RedUn]

Quote: Originally Posted by Idontbrakeforcorners

in respons to being able to calculate power at the wheels, ill actually giver some calculations

the get the drag force
Fd=.5(DPA)V^2
D= drag coefficiant
P= row density of object your traveling through (air)= 1.29
A= cross-sectional area
V=velocity

P=FV
p=power
f=force
v=velocity

power is measured in watts and 746watts=1HP

THis is assuming that there is no friction (i know )
But hey, assuming your in a vacuum, thats the HP of your car!

so whats all that lot prove??

[pocketrocketowner]

Quote: Originally Posted by RedUn

so whats all that lot prove??

That it is REALLY silly to get hung up on HP numbers......as performance is based on a shot load of other factors.......

[twouptons]

Quote: Originally Posted by pocketrocketowner

That it is REALLY silly to get hung up on HP numbers......as performance is based on a shot load of other factors.......

Bwa ha ha ha ha! Too Right!

-Eric

[GTT 280]

Quote: Originally Posted by supercharged99

i had a SEAT IBIZA CUPRA R (180 bhp ) LIMITED EDITION.on a 51 reg.

this car could do 160 mph (yeah spank me if you want ) when i was running my mini '200 bhp,the mini felt quicker.

a guy ran a 280 bhp ibiza at YORK DRAGWAY, and my 260 bhp mini did better runs than him.

those cars will outrun the mini near the top end.
if you're both doing 90 mph the SEAT will probably start pulling away.

Do you have a 260 bhp MCS??? - is it GTT? what mods have you had done?

[supercharged99]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooper S Works

Do you have a 260 bhp MCS??? - is it GTT? what mods have you had done?

yep...

running pretty much everything ( head / cam / 63mm TOB / GRS intercooler / 17% pulley / 1 % crank pulley / GTT manifold / milltek cat back / typhoon intake .

[MINI-Morgan]

I useto drive an Astra GSI Turbo with 274lbft which was fast....but add the weight of the car, 5 speed box and turbo lag a BBR220 would just get away on the road. But on the drag strip we we're almost the same.

But who cares about drag strips?? I dont, I prefer the car to be fast pickup and acceleration while moving. I guess I better get saving : http://www.bbrgti.com/minit.php

[badboyzbadboyz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooper S Works

... do i need to get the 270bhp mod from GTT - or do i need to get a new car ???

I would hate to think what you would do if your mate got himself a Ferrari