[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

Surely if its not that silly then is it?
I mean if you want to make a comparison between standard power and power post-modifications then it makes perfect sense to quote crank bhp.

I think it is ridiculously silly...
here is why... people that tune cars get baselines for each car before starting any modifications... I have seen stock mini's pull way under the factory rated hp and some over the factory rated... so yes... silly is indeed the word

as I said before only wheel hp gets you down the track... much can be lost after the crank through different drivetrain losses. It's very similiar to guys measuring certain body parts... they always take the bigger numbers

[SiBradbury]

What is the wheel brake horse power of a Cooper S and how much do you think Ricky's mods have increased it by?

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

What is the wheel brake horse power of a Cooper S Kumho?

brake horsepower is done at the crankshaft... it takes a special ENGINE dyno to do it... typically only manufacturers have them... they costs big $$$$ and it only tests the crank horsepower of the engine without transmission/drivetrain losses...


a dyno that you find at the tuning shop measures horsepower at the wheels after all drivetrain losses... this is a "true" driving hp number.... Not a guess at what the actual crank hp is.

[SiBradbury]

Am I wrong in saying that a wheel horsepower reading is not measured in BHP then? I thought BHP was BHP regardless if it is measured at the wheels or engine. (obviously they'll be different readings due to drivetrain power losses)

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

Am I wrong in saying that a wheel horsepower reading is not measured in BHP then? I thought BHP was BHP regardless if it is measured at the wheels or engine. (obviously they'll be different readings due to drivetrain power losses)

here in the states it is 2 different things.... brake hp =crankshaft hp
whp is just that ... at the wheels

[SiBradbury]

Aaaaaaah right.

Here in the UK and i think, the rest of the world, Brake Horse Power (brake being an old name for any kind of dynometer [rolling road type or otherwise]) is an old-style set torque figure equating a fixed amount of weight pulled over a fixed distance in a fixed time

People sometimes just shorten Brake Horse Power to 'horse power'. I guess the correct terms would be either 'EBHP' or 'WBHP' to avoid confusion (and slightly patronising lectures).

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

Aaaaaaah right.

Here in the UK and i think, the rest of the world, Brake Horse Power (brake being an old name for any kind of dynometer [rolling road type or otherwise]) is an old-style set torque figure equating a fixed amount of weight pulled over a fixed distance in a fixed time

People sometimes just shorten Brake Horse Power to 'horse power'. I guess the correct terms would be either 'EBHP' or 'WBHP' to avoid confusion (and slightly patronising lectures).

I have dyno'd over 200 times and have helped tune the 3 most powerful mini's in the world and I can tell you this.... the numbers spouted on these boards are no where close to what they will put down. The driveline losses they use are not realistic. We can disagree on this forever but my experience actually doing this tells me different. Sorry if I come off that way but many vendors spout big numbers to increase sales

[SiBradbury]

I totally agree, as i'm sure everyone here does, that BHP at the wheels and BHP at the engine are two very different figures. However, regardless of your experience, basically saying that everyone posting in this thread had a 'silly' way of thinking is out of order.

People on here are just everyday peeps enjoying their Mini's and speculating on how much their modifications may have increased their BHP by. As most members only have BMW's figures as a base and have no experience of dyno's or quarter mile times, it is that base that they use when guessing what their mods have done to performance. Although their guesses may be way off horsepower actually generated at the wheels, this makes perfect sense.

Calling them 'silly' for 'spouting' figures in a way you don't agree with is patronising.

Rant over.

[Paul Webster]

So Ricky what did it make??

[Berthil]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

I totally agree, as i'm sure everyone here does, that BHP at the wheels and BHP at the engine are two very different figures. However, regardless of your experience, basically saying that everyone posting in this thread had a 'silly' way of thinking is out of order.

People on here are just everyday peeps enjoying their Mini's and speculating on how much their modifications may have increased their BHP by. As most members only have BMW's figures as a base and have no experience of dyno's or quarter mile times, thats what they use when guessing what their mods have done to performance. Although their guesses may be way of horsepower actually generated at the wheels, this makes perfect sense.
Calling them 'silly' for 'spouting' figures in a way you don't agree with is patronising.
Rant over.

Well put.

[Jaffa Racer]

Come on Ricky tell us what it made

[Rickys'S]

Ok people its nearly there, sorry i have'nt updated yet as i have had a few probs ,hopefully be able to get them sorted for the rollers on sat at janspeed!

All i can say is that i am on 231bhp not ''SILLY'' wheeled hp either!

Will post up as soon as things are all done.

Rick.

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

I totally agree, as i'm sure everyone here does, that BHP at the wheels and BHP at the engine are two very different figures. However, regardless of your experience, basically saying that everyone posting in this thread had a 'silly' way of thinking is out of order.

People on here are just everyday peeps enjoying their Mini's and speculating on how much their modifications may have increased their BHP by. As most members only have BMW's figures as a base and have no experience of dyno's or quarter mile times, it is that base that they use when guessing what their mods have done to performance. Although their guesses may be way off horsepower actually generated at the wheels, this makes perfect sense.

Calling them 'silly' for 'spouting' figures in a way you don't agree with is patronising.

Rant over.

this is so typical of mini owners.... rather have imaginary numbers instead of the truth... my rant over....sheesh

[Paul Webster]

If everything is aok saturday you could then go up the pod sunday, what a weekend that would be, from the rollers to the drag strip.

Looking at Roland trap speed and guessing his weight to be 2800lb then I would say 230 at the flywheel and 205 at the wheels assuming a 11% loss which I saw quoted somewhere.

[Olly.]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kumho Kid

this is so typical of mini owners.... rather have imaginary numbers instead of the truth... my rant over....sheesh

My imaginery number for today is 312bhp

[XTREEM]

I can understand Kumho kids obvious frustration with the power figures that get thrown around these forums, I feel the same when i see these massive claims made by most vendors. We need a WHP only clause on sign up to the forum. lol.

Do you agree to only talk about Horsepower at the wheels? If the answer is yes, you can come in!!!!! hahaha

[MiniFr34k]

agreed with John - bhp means jack all.. u need to look at WHP.

[minigolf]

If you want to compare mods and see what power an individual car has made, you really need to baseline the car on a dyno in stock trim, then go back to the same dyno post mods. There's enough variables in dyno readings as it is without guessing at what power figure you started with. On the same day my stock 04 MCS returned a reading of 106kW at the wheels and 30 minutes later a stock 03 MCS returned 118kW on the same dyno with the same operator. Clearly there is differences between engine power from car to car.

http://www.mini2.com/forum/mini-cooper-s/97125-3-x-mcss-dyno-please-read-theorise.html

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by XTREEM

I can understand Kumho kids obvious frustration with the power figures that get thrown around these forums, I feel the same when i see these massive claims made by most vendors. We need a WHP only clause on sign up to the forum. lol.

Do you agree to only talk about Horsepower at the wheels? If the answer is yes, you can come in!!!!! hahaha

me likey your idea...
it's so true about wild hp claims

[cooper7]

Kumho i understand where you are coming from and appreciate all that you have said with regards to WHP and the problems with many power claims. However, your condescending, patronizing tone doesn't really do a lot for the general feel of the community. As was previously mentioned a lot of people on here are just regular guys and gals who own mini's and enjoy everything that modding offers. Whilst there may be problems with accurate analysis of what these mods are producing you don't have to shoot people down in the manner in which you did. I, along with many others I'm sure, would love to have had the direct involvement with mini's that you mentioned, but the fact of the matter is that many haven't, so by all means voice your opinions but remember everyone brings varying levels of direct experience to the plate.