[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by cooper7

Kumho i understand where you are coming from and appreciate all that you have said with regards to WHP and the problems with many power claims. However, your condescending, patronizing tone doesn't really do a lot for the general feel of the community. As was previously mentioned a lot of people on here are just regular guys and gals who own mini's and enjoy everything that modding offers. Whilst there may be problems with accurate analysis of what these mods are producing you don't have to shoot people down in the manner in which you did. I, along with many others I'm sure, would love to have had the direct involvement with mini's that you mentioned, but the fact of the matter is that many haven't, so by all means voice your opinions but remember everyone brings varying levels of direct experience to the plate.

People tend to have very thin skin on internet boards and Mini2 is no exception. I spent many yrs in the Marine Corps and my style is very blunt. Sorry to ruffle your feathers but I personally would rather have people tell me the truth than to lie to me. I guess the part that is hard to swallow is you have people telling you about dyno's that have NEVER even dyno'd their cars... LOL

[Paul Webster]

Just to make you laugh, last weekend at Santa Pod there was an 05 Diablo and the only run I saw was a 13.4 @ 107, made me feel proud that the Mini went 12.915 @ 107 just wish I was in the other lane

[SiBradbury]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kumho Kid

(ON THURS 20TH)
this is so typical of mini owners.... rather have imaginary numbers instead of the truth... my rant over....sheesh

I seem to remember you coming up with an imaginary figure recently.....hmmmmm.
Cue: dream sequence.....

Quote: Originally Posted by Kumho Kid

(ON TUES 18TH)
I would say a "true" hp for that car would be about 205 WHEEL hp.... let's please stop with the BHP guestimations.... it's silly

.......hmmmmm, good use of imagination Kuhmo!!

Kumho, people here clearly don't dispute your knowedge or opinions, thats what forums are for. You clearly are well versed in the world of tuning generally. But you must understand that if someone has a Cooper S and they fit a part that claims to give them, say, 15bhp, then OF COURSE they're going to estimate the power will be increase to178bhp approx! Obviously actual wheel horsepower is bound to be less but using BMW figures as a baseline (which don't forget, is all they have to go on) this is a perfectly reasonable estimate based on the info they have!

Maybe if the wheel horse power of a Cooper S was a commonly known figure by us guys and girls in this community then yes, of course it would be more sensible to make estimates based on that!! That would make so much sense!! The fact is people use BMW's quoted figures in the absence of this and this also makes total sense. Anyone disagree?

I think its more the way you put yourself across in that particular thread (i know the tone of it certainly ruffled my feathers) that has wound people up rather than your personality generally.

[Paul Webster]

I suppose this is the steep learning curve that you have to go through when modifying any car, what advetising b/s do you believe.

Unfotunatley for those just starting, it is a minefield and they will probably waste loads of $$££ on buying stuff which doesn't really make a difference.

At least Roland has ventured up the 1/4 mile and can back up his claims unlike some of the others.

[minicabrio]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

.......hmmmmm, good use of imagination Kuhmo!!

Kumho, people here clearly don't dispute your knowedge or opinions, thats what forums are for. You clearly are well versed in the world of tuning generally. But you must understand that if someone has a Cooper S and they fit a part that claims to give them, say, 15bhp, then OF COURSE they're going to estimate the power will be increase to178bhp approx! Obviously actual wheel horsepower is bound to be less but using BMW figures as a baseline (which don't forget, is all they have to go on) this is a perfectly reasonable estimate based on the info they have!

Maybe if the wheel horse power of a Cooper S was a commonly known figure by us guys and girls in this community then yes, of course it would be more sensible to make estimates based on that!! That would make so much sense!! The fact is people use BMW's quoted figures in the absence of this and this also makes total sense. Anyone disagree?

I think its more the way you put yourself across in that particular thread (i know the tone of it certainly ruffled my feathers) that has wound people up rather than your personality generally.

Totally agree!!

I bought a Cooper (115bhp standard BMW figure), then I bought a chip which advertised a 10bhp increase, so I assume that I have 125bhp.

I don't know anything about bhp's or torques, all i know is the Cooper is advertised as 115bhp, so mine is 125bhp

[SiBradbury]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1320autos

I suppose this is the steep learning curve that you have to go through when modifying any car, what advetising b/s do you believe.

Unfotunatley for those just starting, it is a minefield and they will probably waste loads of $$££ on buying stuff which doesn't really make a difference.

At least Roland has ventured up the 1/4 mile and can back up his claims unlike some of the others.

No-one's claiming anything!! The title of the thread is "Guess the power" not, "I put a K&N on my mini and now it is a 1000bhp"

[Rickys'S]

Ok guys heres the story.... i took my car to be live mapped using the unichip while mapping the operator was commenting on the boost going up/down not allowing him to fuel it properly

So came home and got back to the drawing board, i then connected up an boost guauge to the inlet snoot and found a max of 13.4psi of boost .Then off with the 4th gen M7charger and back on with the standard 5TH gen with 17% pulley again tested and wahoo bact to 19.2PSI of boost and the traction light although this time the traction light was on earlier at 3500RPM in second gear.

I then re-booked a mapping session which again all went Wrong, firstly when the car boosts up past the map sensor limit and the traction light appears and the car pulled back on fuelling and sending it into a very lean condition which you can see in the attached dyno graph!

You can see the power/torque dropping off at 4533RPM this is the same time that the cars traction light comes on

So now i have wired in a 3 Bar map sensor from GM, therefore keeping the standard one in the inlet manifold to operate the ASC+T but tacking the 5V,0V and disconnecting the return to the dme for the new GM product, i have plumbed the sensor into the outlet snoot of the intercooler, it is all working fine and i have now booked to get it mapped again on the 17th.

Hopefully all will be fine third time around and that wait for 260bhp will be answered!

[Brynster]

Quote: Originally Posted by sibradbury

Surely if its not that silly then is it?
I mean if you want to make a comparison between standard power and post-modification power then it makes perfect sense to quote crank bhp if thats the base to work from.

Trouble is that crank hp isn't real world horsepower and, anyway, motoring fans can't get access to engine test beds so they have to rely on leaving the engine in the car and running the car on a rolling road. Wheel horse-power - which IS real world hp - can be read at the time of testing and is, in the case of a MINI, I believe, some 11 to 13% less than that measured at the flywheel. The difference, say 12%, is lost in driving the transmission and ancillaries. So, a stock MCS which the manufacturers say produces 170bhp, would give you 12% less than that when measured on a rolling road (in a perfect world).

[Ven0m]

Nice time for your mini 1320autos,,,,

Although i doubt the diablo was pushing too hard with that slow time!!

[Lohen]

Fair comments so far (i wont get into the politics of this argument). One question though???

If engine produces BHP, then surely it is BHP wherever you measure it??

My thoughts on this:

BHP is generated by the engine to drive the car, as it leaves the engine it has to go though the gearbox and the diff, then the drive-shafts to finally drive the wheels. Yes? So you loose a % of BHP through the transmission and therefore you would have a lower BHP at the wheels, but it is still BHP. Surely??

Therefore for me the term BHP would stand. Now we have to name the figures correctly
BHP - the figure you would produce at the crank.
BHP at the wheels - the figure that you produce at the wheels as a result of BHP loss through transmission. (ie WHP or what ever you want to call it)

Another thing to consider - if you changed your gearbox to a more race orientated one (ie. straight cut dog gears) then you would loose less BHP through the transmission and therefore you "BHP at the wheels" will be more but you actuall BHP will remain the same. Also the type and temperature of your gear oil would also determine the loss of BHP through transmission.

So if we lived in the perfect worls then we all should have BHP and WHP readings given to us when we test the cars....

Andrey

[Paul Webster]

I believe and I might be wrong here that BHP stands for Brake Horse Power, why do they use the word Brake?? I believe they use the word Brake because this how they meaure an engines horse power on an engine dyno by the water brake.

So thus the terms for measuring on an engine dyno would be BHP and on a rolling road would be WHP.

[Brynster]

Quote: Originally Posted by MiniFr34k

agreed with John - bhp means jack all.. u need to look at WHP.

As I said, a score or so posts ago, power at the wheels is the ONLY thing you can look at -- unless you are a manufacturer of cars or engines who has access to a test bed and can measure at the crank. (Sorry - if I was the one referred to as "patronising" over this - but I was the first to post the explanation and could not know what level of prior knowledge the earlier posters possessed.) Unless you have total trust in the dyno and its operator (who's probably only out to sell you horsepower) you're living in a dreamworld, anyway.
The real test of performance is on the road, not outquoting horsepower figures in the bar!

[Paul Webster]

Rickys'S

Surely your car would be better off on a rolling road that has traction?? Those its intresting that you found this lean condition when the traction light comes on.

Good luck and keep us posted with the outcome.

[Rickys'S]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1320autos

Rickys'S

Surely your car would be better off on a rolling road that has traction?? Those its intresting that you found this lean condition when the traction light comes on.

Good luck and keep us posted with the outcome.

Cheers, will also be testing that M7 charger with 5th gen rotors, just to see the boost more than anything as it should be making more boost with all that extra air its sopposed to make!

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickys'S

Cheers, will also be testing that M7 charger with 5th gen rotors, just to see the boost more than anything as it should be making more boost with all that extra air its sopposed to make!

can't wait to see this one since the test car that has everything M7 made 201whp

[Rickys'S]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kumho Kid

can't wait to see this one since the test car that has everything M7 made 201whp

So are you saying that 201whp is good then, i will get my plot in whp also and is there any more info on that m7 charger?

I have tried it on my car with the exact same spec and pulley, i only got 13.4psi of boost and as i said the original 5th gen made 19.2psi at 4533rpm both on the exact same day!!

I spoke to peter at M7 who said it is impossible to get over 16PSI ......and that it is the masses of cold air that counts so if it is making more air flow then surely i should expect more boost as i am trying to force the air through the same orrifice

The saga continues......if it does'nt produce the boost with new rotors than it will be going to peters address!!!

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickys'S

So are you saying that 201whp is good then, i will get my plot in whp also and is there any more info on that m7 charger?

I have tried it on my car with the exact same spec and pulley, i only got 13.4psi of boost and as i said the original 5th gen made 19.2psi at 4533rpm both on the exact same day!!

I spoke to peter at M7 who said it is impossible to get over 16PSI ......and that it is the masses of cold air that counts so if it is making more air flow then surely i should expect more boost as i am trying to force the air through the same orrifice

The saga continues......if it does'nt produce the boost with new rotors than it will be going to peters address!!!

If you think over 5k worth of mods and 201whp is good then it's good. It's up to the individual .

[Rickys'S]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kumho Kid

If you think over 5k worth of mods and 201whp is good then it's good. It's up to the individual .

That does'nt answer the question, in my opinion (not into whp), i think 201whp is pretty pants i know of a genuine 275bhp car which with loses should be well over 201whp.....yes or no?

I will get the guys to do a whp run after the mapping is done and compare whp with bhp!

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rickys'S

That does'nt answer the question, in my opinion (not into whp), i think 201whp is pretty pants i know of a genuine 275bhp car which with loses should be well over 201whp.....yes or no?

I will get the guys to do a whp run after the mapping is done and compare whp with bhp!

275bhp =242whp with the driveline loss that we use... but why calculate backwards when you have the wheel hp right in front of you? Do you know how many mini's in the world make over 230whp that are NOT twincharged? I have NEVER seen one. I know they are "CLAIMED" but NONE have ever been to our dyno meets and we have dyno'd over 100+ cars with every manufacturers parts. What does that tell you? Are they out there? Sure.... but if you read these forums you would think they are on every block on every street....

also... why would you not be interested in WHP? It's what actually gets you down the road after all of the losses of the drivetrain....

[Paul Webster]

Motorsports3 on NAM run 13.617@103.188 last weekend unfortunatley I was at another dragstrip in Phoenix otherwise I would of witnessed it as well,

"Car has the rear seat removed and nothing else. Scales were closed or I would have weighed it.
Last time I dynoed it was 211whp. I have added a few things since then and can now rev to 7300rpm. So I would guess I guess I have a couple more hp. And all of dynoing was done in 100 weather, so I am sure the car was running stronger last night."

So if you had a timing ticket from a track backing up the rolling road claim then Kuhmo will believe you,well maybe LOL.