MINI2

greyghost2004 · Aug 13th, 2006, 05:29 AM

Found this on NAM . Someone has finally gotten some numbers together .

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...ad.php?t=76184

Root Ginger · Aug 13th, 2006, 09:12 AM

Looks like DFIC is the daddy then

venox22 · Aug 13th, 2006, 09:34 AM

very interesting report

MINIMANIAUK · Aug 13th, 2006, 10:06 AM

I real terms the difference between them is only a few of bhp,of course every bhp counts

- upgrading the i/c does not so much make power as reduce the losses due to the heat generated by the charger working too hard and out of its efficiency range (especially with very reduced pulley at high rpm) If you consider it takes 150 CFM (cubic feet/min) of air to produce 100 bhp then 300 CFM are required for 200 bhp , I think the eaton charger is rated at over 340cfm or 225 bhp , so to go beyond this the charger is being forced to work beyond its rated capacity hence the huge temp increases and need for i/c uprating.
A far better solution is to replace the charger with one more suited to high power ,this i why I am fitting a charger with over 500 CFM which will comfortably give 275bhp with vastly reduced temps and can be increased at a later point still within its rated efficiency range. It is easy to measure boost pressure ,but this does not tell the full story

Root Ginger · Aug 13th, 2006, 11:24 AM

True, but further down it does say how much it reduces temps better than the GRS. The reduced air temps will benefit those with or without a new charger. I appreciate that what you are saying is that the DFIC will not alleviate the problem of the SC producing excess heat, just help get rid of the heat it produces a bit more.

MINIMANIAUK · Aug 13th, 2006, 01:03 PM

absolutely , the i/c upgrade is another link in the chain , and the cooler the better but it is a link, and not every one can afford the whole package , there is always the temptation to just fit a pulley and bolt on an i/c and let it cope ,but if the head or manifold or exhaust are not extracting the heat this could lead to expensive failure,the MINI engine already runs very high temps as stock and how many owners upgrade the power without say an oil cooler or bigger rad or engine bay venting or wrapping the manifold. Its great to have feedback on products the more the better ,as long as its not considered as a one item cure all , the downside of all air intercoolers is without forward speed they struggle and suffer heatsoak.but well done that man for his testing efforts

Root Ginger · Aug 13th, 2006, 03:37 PM

You're quite right there about the IC and heat soak. I didn't appreciate the idea of heat soak until I took my car down the strip at Santa Pod.

Everyone had their bonnets open in the queues and were pushing there cars along. At that stage I couldn't see how this would make all that much difference. On my final run I decided what the heck lets give it go.

So the bonnet was up and the car was pushed. As an added measure just before I had my run I drenched the IC with a bottle of water.

What do you know the best run time I had all day by a significant margin.

s_and_m · Aug 13th, 2006, 03:56 PM

What's going on?

From skim reading the NAM posts I get the feeiling that my nice M7 Extreme hood scoop is a good step forward, but to realy drive down my inlet charge temps I should go for an aftermarket IC.

My niaive question is, which one gives the biggest BHP kick per GBP?

Also - I find that lifiting the bonnet after a track session gives s more responsive return as the IC also acts as a radiator when the engine is off - if that makes sense.

Cheers

S

Root Ginger · Aug 13th, 2006, 04:09 PM

At the moment the M7 DFIC offers the biggest cooling ability equalling more power for the Super Bee. A water cooled IC would be even better but I've yet to see one that produces good results and isn't hideously expensive.

The affect you describe of having the bonnet closed or open after a run is because with the bonnet closed and no air flowing through, the heat of the engine has no where to go. It is not being pushed out replaced with nice cool air like it does when driving along. Therefore it just gets hotter and hotter under there. It also causes the IC to heat up reducing it ability to cool the air bogging the car down on launch.

Opening the bonnet gives a nice big escape route for the heat! Ideally getting a big air mover sat in front of the car with the bonnet up would be good!

Damo · Aug 13th, 2006, 06:37 PM

A thing to consider is that in the US the DFIC (plus scoop) V's a GRS intercooler imported from the UK its a no brainer for the US peeps for the BHP per $.

...however in the UK with the GRS cheaper as your not having to import it, and the fact the DFIC is going to be more expensive because your going to have to import it, then it might not be such a no brainer over here with regard to BHP per £.

Looks like a good bit of kit, but then again so does the GRS Chargecooler....but then I haven't a clue when it comes to things like this I just know it looked shiney

herbie hind · Aug 14th, 2006, 02:23 AM

go on nam and you'll see ... when the df i/c was installed the effect was noticeable by a friend who was uninformed as to the swap now that's h.p. . we're talkin' better from the get nevermind after driving hard.

obehave · Aug 14th, 2006, 03:46 AM

I'm waiting for the M62 kit. That and my GRS will be more than enough.

For now

herbie hind · Aug 15th, 2006, 12:39 AM

that thing's a shaft breaker for sure!!! i'm already ripping the tires off with the header ,pulley ,cat back ,intake,plugwires, coil ,etc,. oh oil cooler too .put it on sat. i can't imagine over 300 horses to the ground on a mini . just mind boggling.!!!

Gr1zzLy · Aug 21st, 2006, 02:26 AM

Quick question on the DFIC. How does it work in getting the air? e.g. other top mount IC units like the GRS use an air diverter, how does the DFIC unit do this? It looks like it sits just under the bonnet so the grill is right behind the bonnet scoop.... in which case, is there enough room and does it raise the bonnet?!?

obehave · Aug 21st, 2006, 02:40 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by Gr1zzLy (original)

Quick question on the DFIC. How does it work in getting the air? e.g. other top mount IC units like the GRS use an air diverter, how does the DFIC unit do this? It looks like it sits just under the bonnet so the grill is right behind the bonnet scoop.... in which case, is there enough room and does it raise the bonnet?!?

Doesn't raise the bonnet, comes with a custom scoop, the stock upper diverter is removed.
There's sufficient.

Gr1zzLy · Aug 21st, 2006, 03:16 AM

Quote: Originally Posted by obehave (original)

Doesn't raise the bonnet, comes with a custom scoop, the stock upper diverter is removed.
There's sufficient.

Comes with a custom scoop? So the original one can't be used? I got a JCW CF scoop.. would want to keep that.

PrplPplEtr · Aug 21st, 2006, 06:11 AM

you can get theirs in CF too i think. it's a pretty sweet unit.

greyghost2004 · Sep 1st, 2006, 06:40 PM

Looks like the efficiency numbers are out

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...=71537&page=16

MiniFr34k · Sep 6th, 2006, 12:05 AM

havent checked the thread but is all this hype about >100% thermal efficiency proving true?

Root Ginger · Sep 6th, 2006, 12:09 AM

Not 100% no. But it still works.

Aug 13th, 2006, 05:29 AM	#1
greyghost2004 MINI2 Regular Join Date: Jul 2004 Local Time: 02:37 PM Posts: 95 Offline	GRS vs DFIC intercooler numbers Found this on NAM . Someone has finally gotten some numbers together . http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...ad.php?t=76184

Aug 13th, 2006, 09:12 AM	#2 (permalink)
Root Ginger Amiga 500 to PS3 20 Years Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Slough, Berkshire Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 4,634 Offline	Looks like DFIC is the daddy then It was acceptable in the 80's

Aug 13th, 2006, 11:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
Root Ginger Amiga 500 to PS3 20 Years Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Slough, Berkshire Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 4,634 Offline	True, but further down it does say how much it reduces temps better than the GRS. The reduced air temps will benefit those with or without a new charger. I appreciate that what you are saying is that the DFIC will not alleviate the problem of the SC producing excess heat, just help get rid of the heat it produces a bit more. It was acceptable in the 80's

Aug 13th, 2006, 03:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
Root Ginger Amiga 500 to PS3 20 Years Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Slough, Berkshire Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 4,634 Offline	You're quite right there about the IC and heat soak. I didn't appreciate the idea of heat soak until I took my car down the strip at Santa Pod. Everyone had their bonnets open in the queues and were pushing there cars along. At that stage I couldn't see how this would make all that much difference. On my final run I decided what the heck lets give it go. So the bonnet was up and the car was pushed. As an added measure just before I had my run I drenched the IC with a bottle of water. What do you know the best run time I had all day by a significant margin. It was acceptable in the 80's

Aug 13th, 2006, 03:56 PM	#8 (permalink)
s_and_m 220 of your finest horses Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: 6800 rpm Local Time: 10:37 PM Posts: 3,015 Offline	it's Sunday and I'm lookimng at excel graphs! What's going on? From skim reading the NAM posts I get the feeiling that my nice M7 Extreme hood scoop is a good step forward, but to realy drive down my inlet charge temps I should go for an aftermarket IC. My niaive question is, which one gives the biggest BHP kick per GBP? Also - I find that lifiting the bonnet after a track session gives s more responsive return as the IC also acts as a radiator when the engine is off - if that makes sense. Cheers S

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Aug 13th, 2006, 09:34 AM	#3 (permalink)
venox22 only the brave! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lincs Local Time: 10:37 PM Posts: 1,290 Offline	very interesting report

Aug 13th, 2006, 10:06 AM	#4 (permalink)
MINIMANIAUK MINI2 Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2006 Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 1,080 Offline	I real terms the difference between them is only a few of bhp,of course every bhp counts - upgrading the i/c does not so much make power as reduce the losses due to the heat generated by the charger working too hard and out of its efficiency range (especially with very reduced pulley at high rpm) If you consider it takes 150 CFM (cubic feet/min) of air to produce 100 bhp then 300 CFM are required for 200 bhp , I think the eaton charger is rated at over 340cfm or 225 bhp , so to go beyond this the charger is being forced to work beyond its rated capacity hence the huge temp increases and need for i/c uprating. A far better solution is to replace the charger with one more suited to high power ,this i why I am fitting a charger with over 500 CFM which will comfortably give 275bhp with vastly reduced temps and can be increased at a later point still within its rated efficiency range. It is easy to measure boost pressure ,but this does not tell the full story

Aug 13th, 2006, 01:03 PM	#6 (permalink)
MINIMANIAUK MINI2 Sponsor Join Date: Mar 2006 Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 1,080 Offline	absolutely , the i/c upgrade is another link in the chain , and the cooler the better but it is a link, and not every one can afford the whole package , there is always the temptation to just fit a pulley and bolt on an i/c and let it cope ,but if the head or manifold or exhaust are not extracting the heat this could lead to expensive failure,the MINI engine already runs very high temps as stock and how many owners upgrade the power without say an oil cooler or bigger rad or engine bay venting or wrapping the manifold. Its great to have feedback on products the more the better ,as long as its not considered as a one item cure all , the downside of all air intercoolers is without forward speed they struggle and suffer heatsoak.but well done that man for his testing efforts

Aug 13th, 2006, 04:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Root Ginger Amiga 500 to PS3 20 Years Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Slough, Berkshire Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 4,634 Offline	At the moment the M7 DFIC offers the biggest cooling ability equalling more power for the Super Bee. A water cooled IC would be even better but I've yet to see one that produces good results and isn't hideously expensive. The affect you describe of having the bonnet closed or open after a run is because with the bonnet closed and no air flowing through, the heat of the engine has no where to go. It is not being pushed out replaced with nice cool air like it does when driving along. Therefore it just gets hotter and hotter under there. It also causes the IC to heat up reducing it ability to cool the air bogging the car down on launch. Opening the bonnet gives a nice big escape route for the heat! Ideally getting a big air mover sat in front of the car with the bonnet up would be good! It was acceptable in the 80's

Aug 13th, 2006, 06:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
Damo MINI2fosi My Classifieds Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: MINItorque.com Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 10,526 Offline	A thing to consider is that in the US the DFIC (plus scoop) V's a GRS intercooler imported from the UK its a no brainer for the US peeps for the BHP per $. ...however in the UK with the GRS cheaper as your not having to import it, and the fact the DFIC is going to be more expensive because your going to have to import it, then it might not be such a no brainer over here with regard to BHP per £. Looks like a good bit of kit, but then again so does the GRS Chargecooler....but then I haven't a clue when it comes to things like this I just know it looked shiney

Aug 14th, 2006, 02:23 AM	#11 (permalink)
herbie hind MINI2 Senior Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: providence subburbs Local Time: 05:37 PM Posts: 449 Offline	go on nam and you'll see ... when the df i/c was installed the effect was noticeable by a friend who was uninformed as to the swap now that's h.p. . we're talkin' better from the get nevermind after driving hard.

Aug 14th, 2006, 03:46 AM	#12 (permalink)
obehave Mini Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Local Time: 04:37 PM Posts: 9,315 Offline	I'm waiting for the M62 kit. That and my GRS will be more than enough. For now

Aug 15th, 2006, 12:39 AM	#13 (permalink)
herbie hind MINI2 Senior Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: providence subburbs Local Time: 05:37 PM Posts: 449 Offline	that thing's a shaft breaker for sure!!! i'm already ripping the tires off with the header ,pulley ,cat back ,intake,plugwires, coil ,etc,. oh oil cooler too .put it on sat. i can't imagine over 300 horses to the ground on a mini . just mind boggling.!!!

Aug 21st, 2006, 02:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
Gr1zzLy Crapping in the woods... Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Sydney Local Time: 08:37 AM Posts: 1,754 Offline	Quick question on the DFIC. How does it work in getting the air? e.g. other top mount IC units like the GRS use an air diverter, how does the DFIC unit do this? It looks like it sits just under the bonnet so the grill is right behind the bonnet scoop.... in which case, is there enough room and does it raise the bonnet?!?

Aug 21st, 2006, 02:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
obehave Mini Mod Join Date: Sep 2002 Local Time: 04:37 PM Posts: 9,315 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Gr1zzLy (original) Quick question on the DFIC. How does it work in getting the air? e.g. other top mount IC units like the GRS use an air diverter, how does the DFIC unit do this? It looks like it sits just under the bonnet so the grill is right behind the bonnet scoop.... in which case, is there enough room and does it raise the bonnet?!? Doesn't raise the bonnet, comes with a custom scoop, the stock upper diverter is removed. There's sufficient.

Aug 21st, 2006, 03:16 AM	#16 (permalink)
Gr1zzLy Crapping in the woods... Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Sydney Local Time: 08:37 AM Posts: 1,754 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by obehave (original) Doesn't raise the bonnet, comes with a custom scoop, the stock upper diverter is removed. There's sufficient. Comes with a custom scoop? So the original one can't be used? I got a JCW CF scoop.. would want to keep that.

Aug 21st, 2006, 06:11 AM	#17 (permalink)
PrplPplEtr Countdown to Ecstacy Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Indy Local Time: 05:37 PM Posts: 28 Offline	you can get theirs in CF too i think. it's a pretty sweet unit. 06 MCS JCW PH/PH premium, sport, webspokes, black leather, anthracite dash and headliner.

Sep 1st, 2006, 06:40 PM	#18 (permalink)
greyghost2004 MINI2 Regular Join Date: Jul 2004 Local Time: 02:37 PM Posts: 95 Offline	Looks like the efficiency numbers are out http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...=71537&page=16

Sep 6th, 2006, 12:05 AM	#19 (permalink)
MiniFr34k fr34king n00b! My Classifieds Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sydney Local Time: 07:37 AM Posts: 2,173 Offline	havent checked the thread but is all this hype about >100% thermal efficiency proving true?

Sep 6th, 2006, 12:09 AM	#20 (permalink)
Root Ginger Amiga 500 to PS3 20 Years Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Slough, Berkshire Local Time: 09:37 PM Posts: 4,634 Offline	Not 100% no. But it still works. It was acceptable in the 80's

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