[sam_a156]

Many highly respectable tuners are not so convinced about the importance of ECU remaps. Even here at MINI2 the consensus seems to be that they are mostly not worth it or even just a waste of money.

My own experience seems to be somewhat challenging this view:

1) As documented here earlier, I had some serious performance issues with my JCW conversion at the beginning of this year ('05 MCS) here in Warsaw. Turned out that my car was running by mistake the original MCS remap instead of the JCW one. As a result my car was dynoed at 192hp before the ECU remap (with all the JCW goodies installed) and then 210ish after the remap. Also the fuel consumption was horrible before the remap especially in the city - and improved after the remap. I have thus some first hand experience (both butt and real dyno) of the difference that a ECU remap can make in case of a JCW conversion.

2) A local friend of mine tuned his own '04 MCS at a local tuning shop here. This shop is not a MINI specialist, but among other things are quite a bit into ECU tuning (one of their references is the fastest Audi S4 in the world with 1000+hp: AudiWorld News). Anyway, in my friend's MCS they only changed the s/c pulley and did several different remaps and tested them on the dyno. The results varied between 200-210 depending on the remap and his car was on the same dyno even more powerful than my plain vanilla JCW ...

Both these experiences seem to suggest that in certain cases the ECU remaps can make a difference.

What are your experiences on this?

I am currently running a JCW with crank pulley, IC and manifold and wondering if there are any cheap(ish) power gains to be achieved with some ECU tweaking before taking the not-so-cheap head/cam route...

Sam

[ScottyBoy]

Completely agree withyou hear,

I had a 15% pulley installed with a 2% oversized crank pully, JCW Exhaust and Janspeed manifold, NGK Plugs.

3 weeks later i then had a JCW Remap installed and TBH this felt like the biggest increase from all but without the other MOD's installed i doubt this would be, i guess it changed all the fueling etc to suit the MOD's on the car and then the car took full advantage of everything at once! The remap was a JCW tweak from a friend who runs with the MINI Challenge cars.

[sam_a156]

I am itching to try this out before doing anything else. The JCW map is quite smooth and progressive. I also would not call my car slow... However, knowing how conservative the JCW conversion is otherwise, maybe the same applies to JCW ECU map as well.

Elsewhere here I also read that actually GP would have a different ECU map (incl slightly raised rev limit?) and this is the main source for the additional claimed 8hp over JCW.

Did this friend of yours mention what he thought about the std JCW map? Did he leave your rev limiter to the std or raise it?

Ps. Once this more-power-bug bites, you find yourself constantly thinking about the next mod after the previous one that you promised yourself would be the "final one")

[ScottyBoy]

Yes i read that recently that the GP rev limit is slightly higher..

He hasnt mentioned anything about the standard map at all but i think his car was origianlly a works conversion and has more or less changed everything as its close to 270 BHP as far as i know, but he has this map on his car now so i guess its an improvement, Hes left my rev limit at 6800 i would not want it any higher TBH.

I no what you mean by looking for the mext MOD i search the clasifieds and Ebay everyday lol.

[obehave]

A well done ECU tune can net you good HP. The "one size fits all" mail it in maps are where the numbers usually come up lacking. You friend had a custom tune. Always the best way to go.

[sam_a156]

I think I will try this out next (err...right after I have sorted out my slipping clutch...)

In fact, I already sent a request for quote to this local ECU tuning shop. Once I get them to work on my car, I will post some lessons learned.

Meanwhile, just pumped into another quite interesting post that touches this topic @ NAM:

MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - How I removed lots of mods and made lots more power… (Warning - long & detailed post)

[ScottyBoy]

So from what i read on this NAM Thread is that the guy had these mods:-

DFIC, aerogel mat - What are these 2??

17% pulley, 2% crank pulley, custom dyno-tuned Unichip, 400 cc injectors, Cosworth head (oem valve sizes), Alta CAI, ceramic coated header, Miltek exaust, Exedy Flywheel/Clutch.

And could not get over 197WHP

He then took off the 17% and swapped it for a 15% pulley, replaced the Crank pulley back to stock, Replaced the injectors with JCW injectors and Stock intercooler in replace of the DFIC?

He did have a 17% pulley installed with 2% crank pulley and found the S/C belt to be slipping which limited his power, the change of pulley cured the slipping.

After all the changes the guy at the garage installed a custom Remap and he then had 222WHP
TBH if i had those mods, and what id need to be on the same level is a Tuned Head and Exedy Flywheel/Clutch a set of JCW Injectors then id be close to or onpar with him but then these MODS installed will be close to £2500.

My conclusion from this is!

Get a map that is customed to your MODS and have it changed each time a new MOD is installed!

My list of Mods are

15% Pulley
2% Crank pulley
Alta CAI
JCW Tweaked Remap
Janspeed Header
JCW Exhaust

Hopefully ill be close to 220 - 230BHP (Flywheel) Hopefully without any S/c belt slippage lol!

[sam_a156]

Yup, quite a story, huh? Even if you take it with a pinch of salt, it raised my curiosity to explore this some more.

My list of mods is very similar to yours (though JCW as a base)

[MINIMANIAUK]

A custom Map or tailored map will always be the best solution.
To gain any performance increase more air (oxygen ) must be passed through the engine,however this is done pulley/head /manifold etc fuel must be altered to suit .
Any air increasing mechanical addition say a head change is non linear so the fuel changes are also non linear and the map should compliment the mechanical change.
The cylinder head is major change in the airflow to the point I dont personally consider the engine tuned at all without a modified one!!! It is costly but by changing everything but the head is dancing around the heart of the tuning concept.
This is one reason we offer the Unichip with a selection of maps available to suit various combinations of mechanical changes.
As a stand alone alteration ,the map cannot add more air and so cannot increase performance by any significant amount,however the more you change the mechanicals of the engine the more a custom map is required to maximise the benefits of getting more air through the engine in the first place.

[roland2003]

hi Guys, tbh Im not suprised that removing a DFIC and (presumably poorly set up) unichip gained so much power. I bet stock ecu prog and stock intercooler would be much better. Having said that it only takes a small leak on the intercooler bellows and thats 30 horsepower out the window which could easily be (incorrectly) awarded as 'a power increase' to the next lucky tuning part fitted that happens to 'unknowingly' sort the leak at the same time.
The consequences of a poor remap are huge, it will often result in a destroyed engine. Im quite happy to declare that we would not entertain any kind of warranty claim on engine internals/detonation damage if the customer has it remapped/unichip/bluefin etc etc after a GTT conversion. ...I say that as I want peoples engines to stay together.!
- You need to ask the person mapping if they will warranty your engine internals if detonation occurs, as theyre product has more effect on that than most.
Nearly every engine I know of thats gone bang has been running remaps/piggybacks.
Yes they can be very good, but think of it as ... ..your stock mapping being 97% as good as it can be with the various other tuning parts fitted..... Now if its a 50/50 chance of improving it the last 3% OR things going bang 2 months later ...Do you still want to risk that remap?
Im confident that with our mth remaps you will get '2% of that last 3%' partly because we can relay with mth accuratly what is required and we througherly test before the car goes out. -raising the rev limit gains a couple of bhp ,but do you realy want to?
There are various ways of adjusting the fuelling..
1) injector duration (remap of altering map sensor signal to ecu with unichip or Apexi)
2) injector size
3)fuel pressure.
We can offer any of these, we have various injector sizes, adjustable fuel pressure regulators, MTH remaps , or we can fit and programme the Apexi piggyback, using wideband sensor screwed in the exhaust actually on the road with actual air cooling ,on your actual car!....
We can do the same setup procedure with the new adjustable FPR also .....
It depends what your prepared to budget for,but whatever the budget reliability must not be compromised.
Finally one tuners idea of the 'correct' AF ratio can be very different to another tuners....so be careful guys
Best Regards Roland GTT

[Paul Webster]

[sam_a156]

Right...

So,one's gotta love living dangerously to do a custom remap?

Though I must admit that the idea of coming back home with a taxi and explaining to the missus that my engine exploded doesn't sound too tempting!

[DaFlake]

Quote: Originally Posted by ScottyBoy230 (original)

DFIC, aerogel mat - What are these 2??

ScottyBoy,

This two mods are M7 products.

DFIC is a direct flow intercooler.

Aerogel Heatshield

[DaFlake]

As for the tune, everyone is going to have a different opinion. For minor mods, I don't think that a remap is really needed. That being said, do you consider a 15% pulley a minor mod? I certainly don't as you are severely altering the amount of air being shoved into the engine. As you start making changes to the HP, you have to tell the engine what you are doing. That being said, I really think that most people don't really understand what a remap is and should do. The hype is that you can increase HP with it. Sure, this can be done and is a side affect of doing it but it is not the only reason for doing it. What you are really doing is letting the car know what you have done to it and adjusting it accordingly. Back in the old days, you would do a tune up to get the car running better with the parts that you have put on. Well, that art is now in the forum of an ECU.

There are several remaps as Roland pointed out.

1. The one map fits all... These are the units that basically upload a generic map and don't really adjust to each engine.

In my opinion, I think that these are the worst of the lot. Every engine is different and will respond differently to these types of uploads. There are a lot of vendors out there that upload files without even looking at the original file to see where the car is sitting before making changes. Bluefin fits in this arena.

2. The uploaded file that is made from the original. This is the MTH of the group. Basically you are taking your original file and sending it in to be tweaked. This is a much better tune as they are actually wrapping it around what you have in your engine. It is a much safer tune as your file is manipulated. That being said, it is important to know that some people have stolen from vendors like MTH thus creating a one map fits all situation. If you buy from them, there is no telling what will happen. I think that this is one of the best street tunes.

3. The in car tune... This is probably the best, but also the most expensive and overkill for a street driver. (My opinion). This is where they try to meld driver to car by writing the tune around your driving style.

So what should a tune do? It should settle the engine in and make the car better driving. Increase in HP will happen but that should be the main reason for this mod. The main reason should be to have a smooth running engine that will respond the way you want it to respond when you need it to respond.

This is my .02.

[ScottyBoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaFlake (original)

ScottyBoy,

This two mods are M7 products.

DFIC is a direct flow intercooler.

Aerogel Heatshield

Thanks a bunch

Thats seems to be an awesome piece of kit to remove and replace with stock to get higher HP from the car!

[DaFlake]

The idea behind it is that heat soak causes a loss in power. Typically I would agree but I think that it will vary region to region. When I lived in Texas, I would have definitely looked at something like that, but being over here in Germany, the climate is much better and it may not really give you much.

[ScottyBoy]

As always when you have members with a wealth of knowledge as above from everyone then you can learn something i just wish i knew alot more!

[DaFlake]

Quote: Originally Posted by ScottyBoy230 (original)

As always when you have members with a wealth of knowledge as above from everyone then you can learn something i just wish i knew alot more!

That is one of the great things about this forum. Lots of great information. However, that is also the downside. Lots of misinformation.

I learn new things everyday.

[ScottyBoy]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaFlake (original)

Lots of misinformation.

Very true!

[sam_a156]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaFlake (original)

:
That being said, do you consider a 15% pulley a minor mod? I certainly don't as you are severely altering the amount of air being shoved into the engine. As you start making changes to the HP, you have to tell the engine what you are doing. That being said, I really think that most people don't really understand what a remap is and should do. The hype is that you can increase HP with it. Sure, this can be done and is a side affect of doing it but it is not the only reason for doing it. What you are really doing is letting the car know what you have done to it and adjusting it accordingly. Back in the old days, you would do a tune up to get the car running better with the parts that you have put on. Well, that art is now in the forum of an ECU.

With the above in mind, to summarize, this is my reasoning:

1) I saw on numerous dyno tests how much the JCW parts were worth without a remap. Say a tad over 50% (of the promised power increase). The remaining 50% or so was up to the ECU remap.

2) With a larger crank shaft pulley, modified bypass valve, JCW airbox mod+filter and a manifold I assume that my car now already differs quite a bit from a standard JCW. I therefore further assume that the standard JCW ECU map will not necessarily be any more ideal.

3) GP has a slightly tweaked ECU map with a raised rev limiter (7100?). As far as the latter, I would not go for anything crazy, but perhaps 7200/7250. I guess this is roughly what you get from MTH.

These are the three main drivers why I am curious about what a professionally made ECU tune could do for me at this stage. But again, to be clear, I do not expect the difference to be as dramatic as in the case of my JCW upgrade.

All this being said, I also hear what Roland is saying and I do appreciate his concerns about long term durability. I fully agree that if the tuner does not know what he is doing this might be a very costly experiment hunting for that last HP. The tune should stay on the right side of conservative. This comes back to the "professionally made ECU tune" under point 2). And ideally, as DaFlake pointed out, this could be based on the existing JCW map as I quite like it: smooth and progressive.

In my own case it is the question what can be done around the area where I live - Warsaw is not exactly the place where you can find tuners with several tens of MINI ECU tweaks under their belt (though MINIs are getting more and more popular here too). So either I trust some of the local shops to do the job (there are quite a few with BMW tuning experience incl the one I pointed out in the first post) or then find some other "remote tuning" solution.

Sam