[roland2003]

...You need the GTT intercooler then.
RR inlet temps will be far higher than on the road BTW

[Cooooooperslad]

Quote: Originally Posted by roland2003 (original)

...You need the GTT intercooler then.
RR inlet temps will be far higher than on the road BTW

You mean the GTT intercooler should be included in all packages with the GTT -17% pulley

[Rigsey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooooooperslad (original)

I'm changing from a 17% to a 15% after seeing my IAT

Out of interest:

What was your highest IAT?
How were you measuring?
What was the ambient temperature?

[tinfro]

Quote: Originally Posted by lov2xlr8 (original)

I am not the type of guy to mess around with settings so I am looking for a plug-and-play package that includes a supercharger pulley, belt and tune that I can install myself.

Does such a package currently exist?

Thanks!

Check out mini-madness.com. They are located in Oregon and the guy really knows about Minis. He offers a variety of tuning packages for the Cooper.

[Cooooooperslad]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rigsey (original)

Out of interest:

What was your highest IAT?
How were you measuring?
What was the ambient temperature?

Dont know what ambient was but it wasnt a hot or sunny day. IAT went upto 96C with standard I/C and 78C with GRS (GRS was second too)

[Rigsey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooooooperslad (original)

Dont know what ambient was but it wasnt a hot or sunny day. IAT went upto 96C with standard I/C and 78C with GRS (GRS was second too)

Both IATs seem very high, I'm reading IATs from the ECU via a ScanGauge2 and in normal conditions I have never see them go above 40-50C even on very hot days. My IATs drop off very quickly when off boost.

The only time I've seen numbers like yours is when I've been stuck in traffic for a long time (i.e. heat soak).

I take it these numbers where recorded during a rolling road session in which case its very difficult to provide enough airflow to the IC?

[Cooooooperslad]

Rigsey does the Scangauge II work with the Mini ecu then? I heard most of these systems dont? Would be really intrested if it did as I would love something like that to moniter my IATs, boost and ignition timing if possible

[MINIMANIAUK]

When the Eaton charger is spun too fast there are a lot of problems :
The first thing to consider is the amount of power it takes to spin the charger it is proportional to the SQUARE of of the RPM it is NOT linear ,so raising the rpm above the rated rpm raises the power used to the point that a small increase is rpm uses a lot more power and NO gains are made
secondly the volumetric efficiency (its ability to pump) also drops with rising rpm,once past a peak rpm the rotors cause turbulent air by the lobe traveling towards the incoming air,the incoming air inlet turbulence rises rapidly,also the space to be filled between lobes have not the time to 100% fill and more turbulence occurs ,we are talking a lot of things happening that shouldnt
Airflow drops off rapidly
For the very small gains at the lower rpms it is simply not worth getting the charger into or anywhere near this overworked speed there is too much working against you .
By adding a remap that further increases the engines RPM limit you move further into an area that you dont want to be in (paul if you want a 9000 rpm drag monster drop the pulley size!)
If only it was a simple as using an ever decreasing pulley

[Rigsey]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cooooooperslad (original)

Rigsey does the Scangauge II work with the Mini ecu then? I heard most of these systems dont? Would be really intrested if it did as I would love something like that to moniter my IATs, boost and ignition timing if possible

It has been for the last year :-)

Check out this thread with details and pics:

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...cangauge2.html

[Damo]

Have read this thread with interest, and if the guy isn't doing anything else to his car, then 15% pulley would be way to go.

I went with 17% (still not fitted though) simply because I already have the intercooler (Probably only car in the country with a standard pulley and a cooler) and I've also got the injectors (to be fitted). Also I wanted more mid range grunt for 5th and 6th so that WOT isn't needed (as its a no-no for those gears).

I do like to rev my car, and a car with a 17% pulley at higher revs is still going to be faster than a standard pulley is up there. WIth my other mods confident the car will be quicker than a 15% car.

[Paul Webster]

5 back to back runs on the dyno, last run starting IAT 28deg, IAT at 6800 51deg, timing at 6800 30.5deg

Ambient temp 16 deg

Pulley 15%

[k-huevo]

I’m well aware of the effects overdriving the supercharger can have on performance but I know from experience IAT is not as critical as other factors. I’ve had IAT in the 130C range (38C ambient) and still produced large deltas over stock with a 19% pulley. At 6,800 rpm, boost was still increasing, so although it may not have been produced efficiently it had not fallen off. I’m not disputing the physics involved just stating running the M45 at its limits is not as devastating as it sounds on paper.

Paul, please explain how you are measuring timing; I merely want to understand your perspective. The camshaft sprocket can be degreed and the camshaft profiled but the ecu alters spark for each cylinder individually and that fluctuates continually with the engine under load.

[Paul Webster]

I've got a Scanguage like Rigsey, It basically just reads what the ecu is doing through the obd port at a particular time roughly every 1/10th of a sec if you'r lucky.

Everyone will always have there opimiom which is best, I just cant wait to test the 15,17,19 on the same car and hopefully the same day, I'm really intrested to see if there is any extra torque available down below and how much.

[roland2003]

Hi, well its clear from this thread alone that a RR cannot anywhere near replicate the true charge air cooling ability of a real road. I only need to drive my motorbike at 60mph to remind me of the force and chill factor you realy get.
Its meaningless to conclude that a 15% pulley is better than 17/19% based on RR results for that very reason.....Put it on a racetrack and time the laps..at least this replicates (very) hard road use, and in anything less (eg a quick overtaking in 3rd gear) the smaller pulley will DEFINATLY be preferable.
Also that clever little T Map sensor (from which you get air temp signal through the OBD2 port)
adjusts fuelling & timing dependant on the air temp. Just as well, but then its not replicating fuelling, timing,or charge air temps of real world conditions.

Best Regards Roland GTT

[k-huevo]

Paul, I haven’t seen equal ignition timing for all cylinders at 6,800 rpm on any MCS I’ve scanned; you have a unique car.

For the original poster, install the 15% pulley, a collet type, not the Alta V2, and a proper sized belt. If you live on the Eastern side of Canada drive to Maryland in the U.S. and have Lucky Dog Garage perform the tune.

For an easy flash installation it is hard to beat Jim Comforti’s Shark Injector; if you are still under warranty, the program can be conveniently removed and re-installed for service visits.

[Cooooooperslad]

K-Huevo what do you have against the Alta V2 pulley then?

[MINIMANIAUK]

k-Huevo, You have had a 19% pulley at 6800rpm and a rising boost pressure, this is not a sign that the charger is within its range , at the high rpms the boost pressure rises as the engine breathing limitation is reached before this point and the exhaust flow capacity exceeded so the boost pressure will rise ,along with a dropping torque increased temp and drive losses. no extra power is made but a great deal of problems can occur, not least by creating a lot of heat energy in the exhaust header and valves.
cylinder head porting and larger exhaust valves can make a great difference , along with a scavenging header .
If you must go smaller pulleys then help the charger at least -head,valves,manifold,exhaust

Rolling roads cannot replicate real airflow through the intercooler,which is way more,however it is speed dependent (the square of the speed) at low forward speeds the cooling flow is way down on that at high speeds but you can still hit high rpms in the lower gears without the high forward speeds. The rolling road is more akin to this situation
the rolling road also does not accurately simulate drag or air resistance which do occur in real life either ,but they are the most useful of tools available
The tmap sensor does indeed alter fuel and timing ,but at wot and high boost and high rpm it is already at max fuelling it cannot add more
IMHO high boost,high temp,reduced charger flow,high rpm is not a great place to be but if people want to ,do it
would not the gains show on the 1/4 mile times? power in the terminals and torque in the et s
The amiable debate continues....

[k-huevo]

Adam, you’re preaching to the choir; I was taking one point out of context and abbreviating my take on it. I’ve indeed performed VE and fuel delivery improvements which falls into the “other factors” category I mentioned earlier and I’m glad you brought that point up to help qualify my statement. You do a very concise and accurate explanation of limitations for both the Eaton Roots supercharger and dyno data.

The smaller pulley served its purpose for what was available at the time and performed well without causing any problems. Now there are more sophisticated ECU programs available that can do a very good job of torque management which is what I enjoy most in the driving experience. The current installed LDG flash program is so good I’ve swapped the 19% equipped ported supercharger for an 11% JCW without sacrificing much. Of course the mid range punch is softened some but the throttle response is so crisp it makes it all good. I still have no qualms about suggesting the 19% for someone that wants to take a short cut.

Cooooooperslad, the Alta V2 pulley would not fit correctly on my supercharger. This was not an isolated issue but others have completed the install regardless of the increased run-out. I’m not willing to accept an almost 3mm deviation from the stock location. In the attached photo notice the gap above the shaft end; it can be seen through the slot.


Even if the hub was to be fully seated and a ball-end allen used (after a notch is filed in the case neck) to secure the pinch bolt, it would bind against the seal retainer at that depth. Also, accurate torque can not be applied with a ball-end at an angle.

[MINIMANIAUK]

In a world that has been obsessed with boost for the last few years driven by the high performance Japanese turbo cars , the supercharger and its operation has been misunderstood by many .
Many owners rely on forums like this for information,the days of owners reading books on boring subjects like airflow and turbulence is long gone-the power of the internet!
myths abound ,and things like compound charger/turbo kits are made to sound like an easy thing to simply bolt on an make eleventy million horsepower
The initial question was simple enough "which pulley"....the answer far more complicated !
views and opinions can and must be put forward it helps to clarify and amplify the understanding of engines and tuning ,what works what might work ,what will not work.
There are far too many what X is best type posts ,with the answer being "I ve got xxx fitted and its awesome"
Dynos/drag/track results are all better aids
Adam

[Cooooooperslad]

So obvisouly then to put this thread to an end and get a final answer we need 30 MCSs. each just tuned with each pulley and the same driver drag each MINI ten times in one day for a half decent average. Its not going to happen is it?