[kshapiro]

All right racers...why turn off the DSC...what positives will I realize...how's it holding me back (while keeoing me out of harm's way)?

[chiph]

The DSC will prevent you from sliding the rear of the car out on turns. This may (depending on your driving skills and the track/turn you're on) cost you time.

Chip H.

[mr.porsche]

DSC compensates for loss of traction by either braking one of the wheels and/or by backing off of the gas. On the street it should always be on.
For racing, autocrossing, etc. better drivers should prefer to have it off because they should be able to handle traction issues without slowing the car down.
I have found that making a rapid (speed) shift from 2nd gear to 3rd gear caused the ACS in my Cooper S to cut in causing quite a hesitation.

[noahe]

I dunno guys, systems like BMW's DSC, Porsche's ESP, and others by Audi and Mercedes were banned from open wheel racing, because ultimately the systems raised the overall track speeds, while relying more on computers, and less on drivers. That does not make for good sport, so the stability systems like this were banned.

So, it is possible, that your MCS is faster in every regard with the system enabled.

Just a thought.

[olddad]

The DSC does much more than the F1 systems did, like sense steering angle and predict intended line of travel, and apply brakes on each wheel individually as well as reducing power. The MINI system makes for a forgiving ride in emergencies but hurts the fastest way around the track.

The F1 systems would cut ignition pulses to keep the rear wheels from spinning when the driver gave it too much throttle exiting turns. For a while there F1 cars all sounded like they needed a tune coming out of turns because the drivers didn't have to ease on the throttle anymore and could depend on the electronics to provide maximum power without spinning tires. These cars were spinning both wheels because of the extreme high horsepower and tight LSD gearboxes. The rule banning the systems made the drivers use a little more right foot skill.

[noahe]

Interesting... That's the Traction Control ruling. There was one team, dunno if it was Audi or M-B, but they HAD an open-wheel car with ESP. Not just the traction control system. This set-up was allowing them to corner faster than the other teams possibly could.

The F1 version of this system would obviously not be as conservative as the MINI's.

[CSDan]

Well, At yesterdays Autocross, I ran with My DSC on for the first time, even though most of my buddies told me not to. Well, I am still kinda wet behind the ears at Autocrossing so that could have something to do with this as well, but I ran 5/10s faster with it on then off. I felt like it(DSC) kept me honest and smooth and more patient. The wheels weren't spinning like mad so I wasn't getting as outta sorts and frustrated with the rest of the run. But at the same time, I wonder if this will hurt my ability to grow as a driver.


Daniel

[scottgib]

In my opinion DSC is a terrific thing to have on the road where many unanticipated conditions are confronted. However, when autocrossing, DCS slows one down.

Yesterday I autoX'd my MCS for the third time, and I ran well against my benchmarks. There were no other cars in DS, so I won by default. I did beat all STS cars (had a number of good drivers), SM, SM2, and all but one Prelude in STX. We ran four times and then changed groups. I has worked tech in the morning so I did not have to work the course. Thinking I was through racing for the day, I changed back to the street tires (Dunlop sport 5000 run-flats). Then I found we were going to get two more runs. Damn! So I just pumped up the street tires to 41/39 psi and ran them. With the street tires I was 2.25 seconds (out of about 40) slower than when on the Kumho V700's. For the next run I left the DSC on (off on all previous runs). DSC slowed me down another 1 second. There is too much lag when the throttle is cut. I suspect there were a couple of place on the course that DSC actually did help a little, but not much. It certainly saved the tires from excess spinning.

That is probably the last time I will make an autocross run with DSC on.

[macncheese]

Quote:

Originally posted by kshapiro
All right racers...why turn off the DSC...what positives will I realize...how's it holding me back (while keeoing me out of harm's way)?

DSC?! I thought thats the smokey burnout switch? Well thats the only use I've had for turning it off but these tires are too expensive to do that too often.


--
Cheese

[Mugami]

For me I have to agree with the earlier post .. It depends on your driving style and skill. Since im a Drifter pilot in style (like having my back end to hang out a bit in the corners) the DSC serverly limits this style of driving. Also since the DSC corrects my own corrections I seem to over correct alot of times. an Example of this is a corner that I can take at 95mph with the dsc off and mantain that speed through the entire corner. can only be done at 80 with it on. Because the system wont let me stay in close due to it applying the brake on the outside front tire causing me to drift out and not hug the corner like I want to. Im not going to say what corner and where it is.. cause I dont need the cops staking it out Also If you are wondering im not planing on going Autocrossing. I use to Race Sprint Cars and that is where my style of driving comes from.

[clallo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mugami
Because the system wont let me stay in close due to it applying the brake on the outside front tire causing me to drift out and not hug the corner like I want to. Im not going to say what corner and where it is.. cause I dont need the cops staking it out Also If you are wondering im not planing on going Autocrossing. I use to Race Sprint Cars and that is where my style of driving comes from.

Hmmm. I think I need some more info on this. First, no front-driver is ever going to let you hang the rear-end out in power-induced oversteer like you've done in Sprint Cars. Front-drivers, by nature, understeer due to the fact that their tires are doing double duty to both steer and motivate the car.

Thus oversteer in front drivers can generally needs to be coerced. This can be done by:

(a) trail-braking into a slow corner (unloading the rear tires while a lateral force is acting on them)

(b) lifting-off the throttle while in a steady-state higher speed corner (again, unloading the rear tires while cornering--but this more prevalent in front-drivers that are set-up to be on the tail-happy side like the MINI)

(c) left-foot braking while still applying the throttle (since the front wheels are powered, light application of the brakes will cause the rear tires to lock up or slow their rotation, while the fronts continue to turn

What you'll notice is that all of these are indeed techniques that *slow* the car down in order to put the car in the desired attitude. (Hence front-drivers don' make great race cars)

*BUT*, remember, although DSC has mostly been seen on rear-wheel drive cars and is generally advertised as being able to stop oversteer, theoretically DSC will attempt to correct *any* difference in steering angle versus car direction. This means both oversteer *and* understeer.

There have been a few times where I have been roaring through some twisties in my MCS and, while no lights were flashing on the dash, I could tell something was going on behind the scenes keeping the car in a nice neutral to slightly oversteering attitude. I have driven other fast front-drivers through these twisties and they all understeered to one degree or another. My MINI was neutral when it should have been understeering--I attribute this to the DSC using individual wheel braking to counteract the understeer.

In fact there have been times where I have plunged into a turn, and at the intial onset of understeer (a time where I would normally have to start left-foot braking a regular front-driver to break the understeer)the MINI's DSC rotated the car's back-end around very obviously. It was great!

So I can't say that I ever have experienced DSC deliberately making the car understeer as you have experienced...this would only happen when the MINI is in a large oversteering attitude. Perhaps I have never had as much oversteer in my MINI as you have had.

If this is the case, how were you inducing so much oversteer in a front driver?

Thanks,
Christian

[scottgib]

Clallo,

IMHO, your analysis is correct except it leaves out the tire pressure variable.

Also, if the DSC light does not come on, I don't believe it has done anything. The MCS has phenominal handling, especially the initial turn-in.

In autocrossing I am convinced that I have not found the right tire pressure differential yet. So far I am not getting enough rear movement using 3 psi less in the rear.

[HarryHBMCC]

Quote:

Originally posted by scottgib
Also, if the DSC light does not come on, I don't believe it has done anything. The MCS has phenominal handling, especially the initial turn-in.

I've been trying to find out if the MINI's ASC/DSC is like BMW ASC/DSC which only turns the light on if it kills the engine, not when it just brakes individual wheels. In the FAQ on ASC&DSC there is a link to a BWM tech. website which mentions this but as I said, I don't know if that is (still) true on BMWs and/or MINIs.

Harry

[Dom]

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryIndiBlue


I've been trying to find out if the MINI's ASC/DSC is like BMW ASC/DSC which only turns the light on if it kills the engine, not when it just brakes individual wheels. In the FAQ on ASC&DSC there is a link to a BWM tech. website which mentions this but as I said, I don't know if that is (still) true on BMWs and/or MINIs.

Harry

My traction control light doesn't always come on, but you know it's done a bit of work because you can hear the engine quiten slightly and get a little 'flatter'.

Dom

[noahe]

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryIndiBlue


I've been trying to find out if the MINI's ASC/DSC is like BMW ASC/DSC which only turns the light on if it kills the engine, not when it just brakes individual wheels. In the FAQ on ASC&DSC there is a link to a BWM tech. website which mentions this but as I said, I don't know if that is (still) true on BMWs and/or MINIs.

Harry

Harry, agreed. The DSC system utilizes the both the brakes and the throttle, and the spark to alter the car's behaviour in accelerating, turning, braking, etc...

I have seen the DSC light flash, but usually on heavy acceleration, or holding power during a corner. I have also heard an ABS like noise when I aquaplaned a little at the bottom of a hill, on a mild corner. I did not have the brakes on at the time, and had eased off the throttle. DSC definately saved my butt, and didn't flash that time.

Also, ABS does not make it flash. So I would imagine that the DSC light flashes when cutting spark, or throttle, but not while applying brakes.

[noahe]

After reading all this, my opinion is that a DSC, ESP or similar system by any other name CAN speed a car up in a racing environment. However, specifically the DSC III system employed in the MINI does not, as it does not allow for a slip angle above 0, and makes no allowance for wheel-spin.

The system in the Porsche for example, allows a steering input/actual slip angle, but kicks in before things get stupid. The Porsche system also cuts excessive wheel-spin, but does not eliminate it.

There is a good reason for the conservative nature of the MINI's DSC. As a FWD car, the front wheels do all of the acceleration, steering, and most of the braking. Allowing even a mild slip angle would be mildly defeating your acceleration, steering and braking. Fine for a race car driver relying on inertia, but bad news for your average driver.

Since I'm your basic average joe driver, I think the DSC speeds me up, because unlike a race car driver, I cannot accurately predict, induce or correct for a bit of 'tail-happy' fun. I can DO the tail-out thing, but it's not a safe, repeatable, confident thing to do. It's something for a big, wide-open space. It would be stupid for me to hang the tail out around a city corner, with curbs, pedestrians, other cars, etc...

But, there is a place for it. I see the WRC drivers do four-wheel-drifts around corners packed with spectators. I assume they know what they're doing, because if it were me, it'd be down to chance whether I make it around, or plough through the dense crowd. I guess that's why I'm not a rally car driver.

[HarryHBMCC]

Even the pros get it wrong sometimes at 200km/h in gravel and mud. Last year's Rally of Great Britain saw Ford's team pull out after one of their cars slammed into 13 spectators; luckily none of them were seriously injured.

Harry

[Mugami]

Im able to make the rear come out a bit for a couple reasons.
1. Rear tire pressure is about 3lbs higher than the front

2. being this is a maintain high speed corner being front wheel or rear wheel doesnt make that much of a difference on the rear end drift. This is not a power drift.

[noblewines]

I have had my MINI S since Sept. 12, and have had a grand time ripping through corners and twisties. But had not felt the DCS kick in till yesterday when I took a hard left finishing an S curve at about 5o mph. There was plenty of room for error and I know the corners there well, so I knew I could let the tail hang without incident. But my MINI didn't and I felt one or maybe more of the wheels brake. I found it to be a thrill to have "someone else" grab the car from me and drive it for a second. No light went on but I know that the DCS kicked in.

[pzaxis]

Front wheel drive cars don't make good racecars............
Phuuleeese whats wrong with some of you DSC is OK for an average driver with little or no track experience, but let's be real you can not... go fast with DSC on period.
And when it comes to fwd racecars...let's see!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTC "British Touring cars" these cars are badass the original Cooper S the giant killer of it's time, Hondas-
Accura integra R Etc.Etc.Etc.
To test Your DCS do a 0-60 run timed with and without and then tell me how much you like it.

PS. Open the car door put your bum on the seat,put the seat belt on turn the ignition on.......TURN DSC OF....FUUUUUUN.

peter