[Der Abt]

I thought I would start this topic to show how many people around the world have been on a dyno with their Coopers/Ones.

This is a Cooper with software, K&N Typhoon and exhaust.
It shows three lines for HP and Torque.
The green one shows the stock HP.
The other two show the HP with all his mods and a more finely tuned software is what created the black line.
HP : 122 at flywheel
Stock : 111hp
Drivetrain loss : 17%
Dyno :Cartec



This is a Cooper with aFe intake and custom exhaust.
He produced 119,7hp at the flywheel and 101hp at the wheels.
Drivetrain loss = 18%.
Dyno : Superflow


This is a Mini One which had 88hp stock.
With Bluefin software, K&N Typhoon with custom heatshield and exhaust he now has 121,7hp at the flywheel and 103hp at the wheels.
His custom heatshield:


His dyno sheet:
Dyno : Superflow


Another Cooper.
This guy also has an aFe intake and an exhaust.
He produced 119,6hp at the flywheel.
Dyno : Maha
Drivetrain loss : 21%


Mini Cooper
Software
Supersprint headers
Supersprint midpipe
Supersprint exhaust
Pipercross Viper intake
HP : 128hp at the flywheel
Nm : 178
Drivetrain loss : 19%


Mini Cooper
Supersprint headers
JCW exhaust
K&N Typhoon intake
Software
Hp : 122
Nm : 160


Mini Cooper
MTH software
JCW intake
JCW exhaust
HP : 123 (flywheel)
Nm : 159
Drivetrain loss : 20%


My own Mini Cooper.
Software
BMC CDA
Eisenmann exhaust
air diverter plate
HP : 123 (flywheel)
Dyno : Maha


This guy pulled 102 and 103hp at the wheels.
This puts him at about 116 - 117hp at the flywheel.
Dyno : Mustang dyno
Member : justintime
Forum : motoringunderground
He didn't include a dyno sheet, so these are his words:

so I took the mini to the dyno and my first pull was 102hp and 108 tq.

then I pulled a 103 with 99 tq
then 100 with 98 tq

sad day on the mustang haha...
I was kinda hoping for 125 range but I guess the cooper wasnt true to the stock 115. whatever formula the guy used on his calculator said I gained about 8 hp from the intake and exhaust.





Mini Cooper
Software
HP : 120,6 (flywheel)
Drivetrain loss : 23%


Also, a Dutch group of Mini Cooper owners did a dyno day.
They collected all the data and put it in a pdf file.
Note how all the Cooper produce around 115hp at the flywheel stock.
The pdf file also includes all the modifications.
The highest was 121hp (flywheel) with software, intake, exhaust.
Drivetrain loss was around 22%.
This guy called "Beek Autoracing" is the number 1 tuner in Holland.
He builds racecars and works together with some of the best known European tuners.

Many people don't believe in MTH anymore because 99% of the people who bought MTH software, produced about 10hp less than was promised to them.
They sent several letters, e-mails and got no real answer from MTH.
Some of them got their money back, some didn't.


Link to the pdf file:
http://www.newminiclub.nl/data/mc_power.pdf

Screenshot of that pdf file:


Mini Cooper
Promini Cold Intake
Exhaust
Engine damper
Nology hot wires
HP : 103hp at wheels


Mini Cooper
Same mods as the one above.
Hp : 103,5 at the wheels


Mini Cooper
Stock
HP : 111,1 (flywheel)


Mini Cooper

BMP/ProMini intake
Kingsbourne 9mm spark plug wires
Milltek header + Milltek cat.
Magnaflow cat-back exhaust
Beru Ultra-X spark plugs
MTH software
Pilo Screamin’ Demon ignition coil

HP at wheels : 108 with 94 octane and 111 with 100 octane

Extra info : dyno runs were done with the hood open (= higher numbers) !

94 octane dyno run


100 octane dyno run

[Der Abt]

Mini Cooper
Software
Stock : 111.2hp
Modded : 121.8hp

http://www.northamericanmotoring.com...2&d=1197552219

[Der Abt]

Just a little fact that I like to point out is that going on a dyno with the hood open gives better results.
But in fact, this is cheating.
If you don't drive with your hood open, why dyno with the hood open ?
I know several people with tuned Cooper S / non S models.
They all know how much power they have now, but just for a joke they also went on a dyno recently with the hood open.
I say for a joke, because they knew that this does not show the real results.
Anyway, the result was that they all produced about 10hp more.
That's how much difference can be made with the hood open or closed.
However, if you want to know the real numbers, I would suggest to keep your hood closed.

The last Cooper we tested this principle on was a stock Cooper S.
The dyno shop we went to had a Superflow dyno and two good and big blowers.
With the hood closed, the stock Cooper S produced 174hp at the flywheel.
With the hood open it produced 186hp at the flywheel.
The car is rated at 170hp stock at the flywheel.
Which result is more realistic according to you ?

Here are his dyno sheets.
And I was wrong, with the hood open his car produced 189hp.
The guys of the Mini club who were present, including the dyno operator laughed at that result, knowing it's nowhere near reality.

To go even further, when they sprayed nitrous on the intercooler (to help it cool off quicker), the car even pulled a 194hp with the hood open.

Does that mean he went home thinking he has a stock 194hp Cooper S ?
Hell no.

All this happened to see how far off the numbers would be with the hood open.
And there you go.

His 189hp run with the hood open:


His 194hp run with the hood open and very cool intercooler:


The point of all of this ?
Showing people that going on a dyno with the hood open is not the way to go.
Sure it's all in good fun to watch your car produce amazing (yet unrealistic) numbers.
But in the end, you know what the real deal is.

The answer to create a realistic stream of cold air is simple.
Make sure you have good and big blowers to simulate the airstream.

The principle is very simple.
When you drive your car, wind goes through the grills and there is an airstream that enters the engine compartment.
That stream, that comes from outside, can only be simulated with big blowers.

When you open the hood of the car, the engine stays a lot cooler compared to real life situations because now the airstream that occurs inside the engine compartment is not realistic anymore.

Here in Europe, most tuners dyno with the hood closed and they make sure that they have big blowers.
Only a small percentage over here opens the hood, and most of the time, those are tuners that are known for their way too optimistic numbers.
We know that it's more the American way to dyno with the hood open (not that all tuners in the US do this), but it really shouldn't be done.

A big blower can simulate the outside airstream, but when you dyno with the hood open ... it's cheating really.
Not only do you now have a blower blowing cold air on the car, but at the same time the hood is open and there is no hot air at all.
This is not realistic, because in normal driving conditions, there is always a percentage of hot air circulating inside the engine compartment.
This gives higher (unrealistic) numbers as a result.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[Der Abt]

Mini Cooper
MTH software
Pipercross open Intake
HP : 116 (flywheel)
Drivetrain loss : 20%


Mini Cooper
Software
K&N Typhoon
Bastuck exhaust
HP : 120
Drivetrain loss : 21%
Dyno : Maha


Mini One

Stock : 97 hp
Modded : 144 hp (flywheel)
Drivetrain loss : 19%

Software
Intake (modified BMC CDA)
exhaust
cat.
polished heads
cams
gasoline cooling
iridium spark plugs

Again, not the number of mods that are required to get that amount of power.
This package does not come cheap.

A modded One is at the same level as a modded Cooper.
So a Cooper with the same mods, wil produce the same power as this One.
The reason why a One gains so much power, is because it's a detuned version of the Cooper.
Part of that detuning is the software that restricts the engine power.
So with a software upgrade a One can gain a lot of that restricted power back and on top of that the same amount of power that you gain with a Cooper.

Power (flywheel)


Torque


His modifications:
Software, carbon intake (modified), cat., cams, gasoline cooling, exhaust, polished cilinder heads.

Here are some pics of his setup:







Link to the article (in Dutch) : R53.nl :: Kelleners Duurtest

[Der Abt]

Mini One/Cooper
Superchips Bluefin with Lohen LO3 map
Milltek Cat-back exhaust
Modified manifold & removable high-flow cat
Pipercross Viper kit
Iridium spark plugs
Lohen Performance Head
Camshaft
Exhaust valves
Lohen 58mm Throttle body
Replacement gaskets & head bolts
HP : 150 (flywheel)

[Der Abt]

All the dyno sheets that I posted of a Mini One or a Mini Cooper, show realistic results.
Here's an example of how it's not done.
This guy has a cat-back exhaust and K&N panel filter on his Mini Cooper.
He did a dyno run with his hood open (not a good idea, gives unrealistic results).
His results are amazing, yet unrealistic.
Hp at the wheels : 111.1



All this with just a cat-back and panel filter.
Simply not possible.

The answer, like I've said before, are good blowers.
Not doing a dyno run with the hood open (see example of the Cooper S that I gave above).

The claim that a stock Cooper produces more than 115hp is a myth.
I've seen over 30 Mini's dyno and not one of them ran a higher number than 116hp at the flywheel.
I know of one case where a Dutch owner ran a 118hp at the flywheel stock.
But that's it.

So, why are there many people with dyno sheets of a stock Cooper that runs more than 115hp at the flywheel ?

Two reasons:
1) dyno with the hood open = optimistic and unrealistic results
2) tuners that promise high numbers

Imagine this situation:

A tuner starts his business and also provides software for a Mini Cooper non S.
He knows that this will not give the car 130hp, but all of his rivals claim this so he does the same.
If you don't, you lose business because people who have no knowledge about this say that they don't wanna go to this tuner because he doesn't promise the same gains.

Then, customers come over and expect 130hp.
What do you do ?
You know the car only has about 120-122hp, but the customer expects 130hp.
You change some correction data in the computer and alter some results and voila, the car "has" 130hp.
Then, on that same day, at the same time a guy wants to dyno his stock Cooper.
Guess what, he produces 125hp stock.
Wow. Amazing.

This is a situation that I have seen myself, many times.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[MarsLandingParty]

will scan and upload my dyno results when I can find them, rolling roaded at 1320 Autos, hood down

JCW Cylinder Head
JCMS Cone Filter
JCW ECU
JCW Cat Back

130.x at fly

103 (i think??) at wheel with my old midlands gearbox, yet to dyno with Cooper S gearbox

[Der Abt]

Another thing you should take into account is the % of drivetrain loss between the power at the wheels and the power at the flywheel.

The absolute minimum can be no less than 15% and the absolute maximum shouldn't be more than 23%.
Most Coopers are around 20%.

Have there been dynos that show a lower % of loss or a higher ?
Yes.
The worst I've seen was 9%.
This is NOT possible, way too low.
The highest I've seen was 30%, which is also ridiculous, because that's way too high.

You see, it's not just about what dyno you put your car on, it also depends on the people who control the dyno.
If they are honest of dishonest, or if they know what they are doing or not.

Another very important fact about intakes, is hot air.
You always have to make sure that no hot air gets sucked in.
Hot air = performance killer.
So if you're going to buy an intake, buy a panel filter (K&N or BMC) or an open intake with heatshield (aFe, DDM) or a closed carbon intake (Pipercross Viper, BMC CDA or Raid Max HP).
I've tested several intakes and I always did a few dyno runs.
If you have an open intake with no heatshield, you are losing hp in most situations.
I did these tests.
With an open intake with no heatshield, the difference between the first and third run was already 4hp (a loss that is).
Reason ?
The airstream inside the engine compartment gets hotter and hotter because of the header and engine that produce heat.
Result, the open filter sucks in hot air and you start losing hp.

My setups with several intakes:











And my latest setup:



So, if you are considering an intake, here are some interesting options that will make you gain hp instead of losing hp:

-panel filter (K&N, BMC)
-closed carbon intake (BMC CDA, Pipercross Viper, Raid Max HP)
-open filter with heatshield (aFe, DDM)

Now there are a few other options out there.
I know that Green filter also has a closed intake.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[Step_7]

02 Cooper
K&N Panel Filter
Bonnet Shut
Stock apart from that, done on a dyno day where the guys running the dyno weren't trying to sell anything to anyone. Other cars on the same day were slightly below stock.

127.3Bhp, can't find the Torque curve but from memory it was 140-something peak.

[Der Abt]

Chances that you really have that amount of horsepower with just a K&N panel filter are really small (no offense).

If I were you, I would go on another dyno.

The first time I went on a dyno with my Cooper (two years ago), the guy also made me believe that I had 130hp with just software and open intake with no heatshield.
I still have the dyno sheet, but I shouldn't really bother posting it, because I know the result is not correct.

That's the second reason I was talking about, people who do not know which correction numbers to use.
You see, most dynos measure wheel power and then calculate hp at the flywheel.
If the person who operates the dyno does not know the correct numbers to use as a correction factor, you end up with optimistic results.

Like I said before, two reasons why people dyno this high (too high to be realistic):

-either they did a dyno run with the hood open
-or the dyno is not being operated correctly

127hp for an almost stock Cooper is simply not possible.
I know so many people who dyno at 125/128hp with software, intake, cat-back exhaust, header and your car produces this almost stock ?
Sorry, not possible.

Just take a look at all the above dyno sheets, do you really believe your car has 127hp as good as stock ?
Take a look at what MarsLandingParty just posted.
He has 130hp and look at his mod list.
That would make your car one hell of a freak.
But to be honest, chances that this result is correct, are very small.

I've seen +30 Mini's dyno and not one stock Cooper produced more than 116hp.
Most of them were between 110 and 116hp.
I know of one case where a Dutch owner produced 118hp stock.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[MINIMANIAUK]

Without replacing the cylinder head, it hard to get any real gains, once the head is done ,the other components come into play
Head fitted - plus 16bhp
manifold fitted -plus 10 bhp
other external items then start to work and add bhp-filter/exhaust/ etc
large jump in torque too with the head and Manifold
remaps cannot flow more air through the engine-hence little gain other than raising the rev limit,and opening the throttle faster

[Der Abt]

Part of that claim is true, changing mechanical parts are going to give bigger benefits.
But, a software upgrade is necessary in most cases.

Example:
When you get cams, you will only achieve a good gain when you upgrade the software to work together with the cams.
Cams alone might give you 4-5hp (flywheel), but cams + software together can give as much as 8-10hp (flywheel).

Software alone can also provide a fair gain.
I've seen cars gain anything between 5hp (flywheel) to 12hp (flywheel).
When you flash the software, the injection of the petrol becomes more accurate.
This is what causes the increase in power.
This provides more horsepower when you go full throttle, but when you drive in a relaxed way, you use less gas.
It works both ways.

Regarding software:

Software alone is gonna get you about 5-12hp.
Why is there such a big difference ?
Because it depends on what type of "software tuning" that you use and which tuner you go to.

Unichip (=piggyback) is gonna get you the best results (10h-12hp is not difficult using this product, maybe even a little bit more), but at a price of 800 / 895 euros (495 for hardware that is connected to the computer of your car and most tuners ask around 300 / 400 for the tuning itself) it isn't a cheap choice.

Another option is flashing your software using the OBDII port (which is the method most tuners prefer).
This is where the big differences can occur.
A tuners that spends about 15-30 minutes of his time working on your software might get 5-7hp.
But a tuner that spends a couple of hours on your software, might achieve an 8-10hp increase.

By the way, a new head alone does NOT give 16hp.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it is incorrect.
Software + cold intake + cat-back exhaust + head = 128/132hp max.

I've seen cars with the following mods:

software
cold intake
cams
gasoline cooling (using the airco lines)
cat.
header
cat-back exhaust
polished heads

They produced between 140 and 150hp (flywheel).
But not one of those mods gave more than 10hp.
And this list of parts does not come cheap.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[Der Abt]

Also keep in mind that the Mini Cooper is not underrated or overrated at all.

Some cars are underrated.
Example : the BMW 335i
BMW claims 286hp at the flywheel, but all the owners I've seen and spoken to (I'm talking about many people) produced between 295 and 310hp at the flywheel stock.
And of course, some cars are overrated.
Example : Audi S4, Audi RS4
Also talked to many tuners and owners, not one Audi S4 has produced more than 315hp at the flywheel (they are suppose to have 344hp) and not one RS4 was able to produce more than 405hp (rated at 420hp).

And most cars produce more or less what they should produce.
The Mini Cooper non S is such a car.

Like I've said before, seen +30 on a dyno myself (including mine) and talked to another 25 owners who showed their dyno sheet.
That's +55 cars and not one of them was able to break 116hp at the flywheel stock (except for that one Dutch guy who was able to produce 118hp stock, let's call his car a freak).

I'm talking about what I've seen myself and what I've experienced.

Tuners claiming 130hp with just software are claiming something that is not possible.
Just like some companies who claim a 10hp increase with just an intake.
Simply ain't gonna happen.

In the end, believe what you want, that's your right.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[MINIMANIAUK]

"By the way, a new head alone does NOT give 16hp.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it is incorrect."


We tried a number of combinations with heads,ported,different sizes of both intake and exhaust valves. skimmed to different CRs and with cams and w/o cams - in the end we got 27% more flow with a big valve head.
the standard head is poor at best and this shows in the fact that such a large increase in air flow is possible- resulted in 16 bhp increase on dyno and large torque increase
I guess we wasted our time as its not possible.
The resultant road testing showed that at the higher speeds the standard car starts to lose acceleration from 90 upwards and struggles to get to max compared with a bigvalve head with manifold which pulls hard right through

" By the way, a new head alone does NOT give 16hp.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it is incorrect.
Software + cold intake + cat-back exhaust + head = 128/132hp max."

"I've seen cars with the following mods:

software
cold intake
cams
gasoline cooling (using the airco lines)
cat.
header
cat-back exhaust
polished heads

They produced between 140 and 150hp (flywheel).
But not one of those mods gave more than 10hp.
And this list of parts does not come cheap."

IF the car produced 150 bhp at fly ;
AND software +intake =cat back+head =128
THEN ; cams ,header and gasoline cooling =22
BUT cams = 4-5 bhp
SO- how did the 150bhp occur?? give that nothing produces more than 10bhp??

[Der Abt]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

"By the way, a new head alone does NOT give 16hp.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it is incorrect."


We tried a number of combinations with heads,ported,different sizes of both intake and exhaust valves. skimmed to different CRs and with cams and w/o cams - in the end we got 27% more flow with a big valve head.
the standard head is poor at best and this shows in the fact that such a large increase in air flow is possible- resulted in 16 bhp increase on dyno and large torque increase
I guess we wasted our time as its not possible.
The resultant road testing showed that at the higher speeds the standard car starts to lose acceleration from 90 upwards and struggles to get to max compared with a bigvalve head with manifold which pulls hard right through

I've seen quite a few cars with this mod and not one of them gained 16hp.
This means you would be the first.
So my question is, do you have any dyno sheets of the car using this head ?

I agree with you about the standard head.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

" By the way, a new head alone does NOT give 16hp.
I don't know where you got that number from, but it is incorrect.
Software + cold intake + cat-back exhaust + head = 128/132hp max."

"I've seen cars with the following mods:

software
cold intake
cams
gasoline cooling (using the airco lines)
cat.
header
cat-back exhaust
polished heads

They produced between 140 and 150hp (flywheel).
But not one of those mods gave more than 10hp.
And this list of parts does not come cheap."

IF the car produced 150 bhp at fly ;
AND software +intake =cat back+head =128
THEN ; cams ,header and gasoline cooling =22
BUT cams = 4-5 bhp
SO- how did the 150bhp occur?? give that nothing produces more than 10bhp??

It's obvious that you don't know as much as you think.

First of all, those cars had a similar setup like the Kelleners.

They had a modified carbon intake (BMC CDA) which added 5 real hp at the flywheel (dyno proven).
The gasoline cooling was good for another 8hp.
However, gasoline cooling (using airco lines) is an expensive modification.
For a picture of that mod, look at one of my posts above with the Kelleners setup, a picture is included where you can see this.
On top of that they had cams.
Cams without software are good for 4-5hp, but cams with custom software are good for 8-9hp at the flywheel (also dyno proven).
The sport cat. gave them 5hp, but when the software was adjusted again, the cat. was good for another 6hp at the flywheel.
The polished heads in combination with software was good for 6hp.
However, the polished heads didn't really add much, it was mostly the software that made that gain possible.
Total = 5 + 8 + 9 + 6 + 6 = 34hp
Their cars produced about 114 and 116hp stock at the flywheel.
Add to that 34hp and you know the result.
Their setups did cost a lot of money, but they got the hp they wanted.

But I'm sure you knew all that ...

Kind regards

Der Abt

[MINIMANIAUK]

You keep mentioning polished heads ,do you mean ported and polished?
Different cams give different results and the 4-5 bhp is a generalisation, the cam is very dependant and the flow of the head- the standard head does not flow fantastically ,hence the large airflow gains possible, with smaller ports the port velocity is high and maximum torque is at a reduced rpm thats what the designers wanted.
The high lift flow with cams is compromised by the limitation of the valves and head ,so the size of the ports has to be done , with the cam lift /duration in mind ,stock or performance.
large ports on the head give high rpm gains and maximise cylinder filling,and extraction(with a manifold) provided the cam is correct with the head flow ,keeping the maximum torque ,rpm as low as possible
It ultimately depends on what usage the car is for road or track and in this respect the head/cam combination and CR is tailored to the rpm range the cars is to be used , whatever the set up you have used doesnt sound good to me ,as a 6 bhp gain with way over 20% flow increase looks like the cam is working against the head configuration .
Have we done dyno runs -yes
am i going to give you the data -no
Should you wish I have a ported /polished head here with stock valve size ,skimmed for increased CR -for use with stock cam -PM me for a price
or I also have a large valve version with race cam and springs for high rpm car let me know
or I have a large valve head with fast road cam using stock springs

I also have in stock a cryo intake kit and cryo fuel bar -probably cheaper than the fuel cooler you are using -not tested as yet so I cant give you numbers
A

[Der Abt]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

You keep mentioning polished heads ,do you mean ported and polished?

Just polished.
I know that polished heads aren't going to add much power (compared to a new head or cams or something comparable).
But polished heads with a software adjustment can add that little extra.

I still haven't seen a setup with a new head that added 16hp (+16hp with just the head).

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

Different cams give different results and the 4-5 bhp is a generalisation, the cam is very dependant and the flow of the head- the standard head does not flow fantastically ,hence the large airflow gains possible, with smaller ports the port velocity is high and maximum torque is at a reduced rpm thats what the designers wanted.
The high lift flow with cams is compromised by the limitation of the valves and head ,so the size of the ports has to be done , with the cam lift /duration in mind ,stock or performance.
large ports on the head give high rpm gains and maximise cylinder filling,and extraction(with a manifold) provided the cam is correct with the head flow ,keeping the maximum torque ,rpm as low as possible
It ultimately depends on what usage the car is for road or track and in this respect the head/cam combination and CR is tailored to the rpm range the cars is to be used ,

Different cams give different results, I agree with that.
I also agree about the fact that the stock head can be upgraded into something better.

Most people who used cams, went for the Schrick cams.
They are really good, but only provide a gain in the higher rpm range.
There's also a Belgian/German supplier whose cams (custom made) provide a gain throughout the entire rpm range.
With software, (several people have used his setup) this added about 8hp (flywheel).

You make it sound like it's all about the head, that is simply not true.
Many people have been able to gain quite some power with other mods.

A new head will work well together with other modifications, no doubt about that, but it is not going to add the amount of power you claim it will.
To get to the level you're talking about, cams, springs, ... are needed.

So far, I've seen pretty much all the mods possible for these cars and not one of them added 16hp (I'm talking +16hp with 1 mod.).

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

whatever the set up you have used doesnt sound good to me ,as a 6 bhp gain with way over 20% flow increase looks like the cam is working against the head configuration .

Several tuners have used this setup and gained a good amount of power.
Some tuners also use a new head, other don't.
But to call their setup not good (you words) is something I would not do.
At least they have provided proof of their setup including the gains it provided.
It's easy to make claims and not provide proof.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

Have we done dyno runs -yes
am i going to give you the data -no

Well, I can't say I'm surprised.
Why not post it ?
Either you claim something that isn't true or you post them and people will buy this product because of the 16hp gain that it provides.
Why not take advantage of this opportunity ?

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

Should you wish I have a ported /polished head here with stock valve size ,skimmed for increased CR -for use with stock cam -PM me for a price

or I also have a large valve version with race cam and springs for high rpm car let me know
or I have a large valve head with fast road cam using stock springs

Sounds good.
This setup can be compared with the Lohen one.
New valves, springs and cam.

What's the hp gain that can be expected with your setup (valves, cams, springs and head combined) ?

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

I also have in stock a cryo intake kit and cryo fuel bar -probably cheaper than the fuel cooler you are using -not tested as yet so I cant give you numbers

So it's cheaper, but it probably won't provide the same gain.
This type of cooling has been tested by Kelleners and added 7/8hp.

I agree with you about most things, the only part where we disagree is the gain that the head alone will provide and the fact that you call other tuners setups not good, even when they provide proof about their parts, gains, ...
I guess there, we can agree to disagree.

Back on topic.

Kind regards

Der Abt

[R50 Nick]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

You keep mentioning polished heads ,do you mean ported and polished?
Different cams give different results and the 4-5 bhp is a generalisation, the cam is very dependant and the flow of the head- the standard head does not flow fantastically ,hence the large airflow gains possible, with smaller ports the port velocity is high and maximum torque is at a reduced rpm thats what the designers wanted.
The high lift flow with cams is compromised by the limitation of the valves and head ,so the size of the ports has to be done , with the cam lift /duration in mind ,stock or performance.
large ports on the head give high rpm gains and maximise cylinder filling,and extraction(with a manifold) provided the cam is correct with the head flow ,keeping the maximum torque ,rpm as low as possible
It ultimately depends on what usage the car is for road or track and in this respect the head/cam combination and CR is tailored to the rpm range the cars is to be used , whatever the set up you have used doesnt sound good to me ,as a 6 bhp gain with way over 20% flow increase looks like the cam is working against the head configuration .
Have we done dyno runs -yes
am i going to give you the data -no
Should you wish I have a ported /polished head here with stock valve size ,skimmed for increased CR -for use with stock cam -PM me for a price
or I also have a large valve version with race cam and springs for high rpm car let me know
or I have a large valve head with fast road cam using stock springs

I also have in stock a cryo intake kit and cryo fuel bar -probably cheaper than the fuel cooler you are using -not tested as yet so I cant give you numbers
A

I wouldn't pay too much attention to his words, he is the one he thinks he knows everything! Exactly the same in NAM I don't know what he is aiming at, but he is not that convincing! cheers

[MINIMANIAUK]

wouldn't pay too much attention to his words, he is the one he thinks he knows everything! Exactly the same in NAM I don't know what he is aiming at, but he is not that convincing! cheers



Im sure I dont know everything,and I seldom visit NAM,you are free to believe whatever you wish.


Der abt;
skimming the head alone gives 4 bhp
I have NOT tried to put down anyones products,but by your own words ,replacing the cat to a sports cat gave 5bhp , and just how much more airflow did you get by reducing the cell count in the cat?
you replaced the intake and made 5bhp -how much airflow did that increase or what temp drop did you get?
even cooling the fuel gave 8 bhp-bear in mind the volume and mass of fuel compared to the volume and mass of airflow it is added to and yet you are positive that adding larger valves,skimming the head and enlarging both inlet/exhaust ports,CCing the chambers,polishing the ports gives a maximum of 6bhp- and that I am somehow wrong I my opinion that the result was poor!

[MINIMANIAUK]

wouldn't pay too much attention to his words, he is the one he thinks he knows everything! Exactly the same in NAM I don't know what he is aiming at, but he is not that convincing! cheers



Im sure I dont know everything,and I seldom visit NAM,you are free to believe whatever you wish.


Der abt;
skimming the head alone gives 4 bhp
I have NOT tried to put down anyones products,but by your own words ,replacing the cat to a sports cat gave 5bhp , and just how much more airflow did you get by reducing the cell count in the cat?
you replaced the intake and made 5bhp -how much airflow did that increase or what temp drop did you get?
even cooling the fuel gave 8 bhp-bear in mind the volume and mass of fuel compared to the volume and mass of airflow it is added to and yet you are positive that adding larger valves,skimming the head and enlarging both inlet/exhaust ports,CCing the chambers,polishing the ports gives a maximum of 6bhp- and that I am somehow wrong I my opinion that the result was poor!