[r1_kde]

hello, I have spent my time looking at intlcoolers and Charge coolers. I know that i can get an intercooler for almost half the price but does the Charge Cooler Justify the extra cash and is there any performance gains to be had?

any advice would be appreciated

[Silent1]

Are you planning on using it town and in traffic?

If it's a road car, don't bother with a chargecooler, they're brilliant provided they're kept cold, once you stop and they warm up they're fairly useless.

They're brilliant on the track, but on the road the benefits are outweighed by the downsides when they get hot, especially when you consider the heatsink they'll suffer from when you park up to go into a shop etc.

[supercoopers]

Quote: Originally Posted by Silent1 (original)

Are you planning on using it town and in traffic?

If it's a road car, don't bother with a chargecooler, they're brilliant provided they're kept cold, once you stop and they warm up they're fairly useless.

They're brilliant on the track, but on the road the benefits are outweighed by the downsides when they get hot, especially when you consider the heatsink they'll suffer from when you park up to go into a shop etc.

I think you'll find it's the other way round

I love my GRS chargecooler. In London traffic the car stays at the same level of spriteliness and performance is strong at all times, unlike stock and larger top-mount intercoolers. I've had all types and can say unequivocally that the GRS chargecooler is the best.

Depends how much you want to spend really, but any top mount will heat up like a frying pan in no time - same with the outlet horn. For the chargecooler, everything remains really cool.

Hope that helps.

H

[r1_kde]

thats what i thought. I was under the impression that overall a charge cooler would be slightly better for my daily M6 traffic Filled run.

will look into it more.

[MINI-Morgan]

Quote: Originally Posted by supercoopers (original)

I think you'll find it's the other way round

I love my GRS chargecooler. In London traffic the car stays at the same level of spriteliness and performance is strong at all times, unlike stock and larger top-mount intercoolers. I've had all types and can say unequivocally that the GRS chargecooler is the best.

Depends how much you want to spend really, but any top mount will heat up like a frying pan in no time - same with the outlet horn. For the chargecooler, everything remains really cool.

Hope that helps.

H

Different to what I thought too! In traffic surely the water heats up and takes much longer to cool down compared to an air to air intercooler which takes a few seconds. But I guess its how long you stop though

The standard intercooler can be slightly insulated to the heat of the engine but still not as efficient as a well designed charge cooler thats running at peak temp

[supercoopers]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI-Morgan (original)

Different to what I thought too! In traffic surely the water heats up and takes much longer to cool down compared to an air to air intercooler which takes a few seconds. But I guess its how long you stop though

The standard intercooler can be slightly insulated to the heat of the engine but still not as efficient as a well designed charge cooler thats running at peak temp

It's more to do with the relocation of the heat exchanger, which is at the front of the car for the chargecooler (versus the frying-pan-like stock location) - even in short burst driving the chargecooler seems to keep things cooler than the topmount.

The water jacket for the 'chargecooler' doesn't get hot either which is a plus and the outlet horn is pretty much always like ice - I've moved the numberplate out the way and I have a really 'porous' grille at the front which may explain the difference. Either way, moving the heat exchanger out front is the way to go if you like your performance consistent and not subject to the whims of the external weather!

disclaimer: It seems to work for me and is a more noticeable improvement than the larger topmounts I've used.

[supercoopers]

2nd disclaimer: I have no experience of the GRS 'normal' uprated intercooler so I can't comment on the effectiveness of that, but consensus opinion of those that have is that it's the best on the market if you're not going the front mount/chargecooler route.

[MINI-Morgan]

Good info! I didnt even know they were offering a jacket for it! Brilliant idea!

[MINIMANIAUK]

Once you have a charge cooler it is also possible to add to the system and tweak it to your application
For example you can add another radiator or a third radiator to the front of the car ,or you can adjust the flow of water through the cooler ,a restrictor in the pipe pre cooler slows the flow rate through the cooler and allows the water to extract more heat while it is passing the boost air ,the opposite is also true so using a bigger pump increases the flow rate .
The pump can also be set up easily to run on after the engine is turned off and continue to remove "heat soak "heat
It takes a lot of "air ",heat energy ,to heat water ,imagine trying to boil a kettle using a hair drier !
charge coolers dont just warm up and become inefficient ,the simply reach a balance temperature above ambient ,adding a rad drops that balance temp

[Silent1]

But the point is there's no way a chargecooler can be as efficient as an intercooler, the amount of water isn't infinite so you've still got to cool it, with an intercooler, provided you've got decent airflow then a chargecooler will never match it for outright performance.

For equal airflow an intercooler far outweighs a chargecooler for a road car IMHO, because a chargecooler requires a water tank, a pump, extensive tubing and an extra radiator, this adds up to a stack of weight over an intercooler.

For the racetrack and the dyno they're great, for the road i think you can't get better than a decent intercooler, provided it's made properly it will cool down far quicker than a chargecooler and you don't have the extra weight and hassle of the cooling system for the chargecooler.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

The pump can also be set up easily to run on after the engine is turned off and continue to remove "heat soak "heat
It takes a lot of "air ",heat energy ,to heat water ,imagine trying to boil a kettle using a hair drier !
charge coolers dont just warm up and become inefficient ,the simply reach a balance temperature above ambient ,adding a rad drops that balance temp

But if you wire it up to carry on pumping you're also going to need to supply airflow to the radiator as well, so then you need to wire up a fan etc.

As for heating a kettle with hot air, that's not quite the same.
A closer analogy is a steam engine, the water in those is heated by hot air passing through pipes inside the boiler, it's very effective i think you'll agree.

[supercoopers]

The chargecooler system weighs very little more than a top mount.

Chargecoolers are the 'best kept secret', made famous for their use in rally cars...Mercedes use(d) them on the 55 AMG engines as well as a host of other applications (all high-end expensive cars mind).

The reasons they aren't used in MINIs from the outset is due to the cost differential - MINI would have used a better system if the marginal cost of doing so were viable. Instead, they're restricted to welding a few layers of core onto the stock intercooler and slapping it on the 'ultimate' standard intercooler on the MINI GP

I'm sorry, but until you play with one on a MINI first hand and have driven the car in a variety of situations, anything else is pure keyboard jockying...

[MINIMANIAUK]

"But the point is there's no way a chargecooler can be as efficient as an intercooler, the amount of water isn't infinite so you've still got to cool it, with an intercooler, provided you've got decent airflow then a chargecooler will never match it for outright performance."


The normal car engine cooling is done using water and a small radiator and a pump - the heat energy post combustion is far greater than the inlet air -there is also a finite amount of water there

"For equal airflow an intercooler far outweighs a chargecooler for a road car IMHO, because a chargecooler requires a water tank, a pump, extensive tubing and an extra radiator, this adds up to a stack of weight over an intercooler".

tank /tubing /pump/and wires would weigh around 5 kg max -the cooler iteself an extra 2-3 kg max

water exchanges heat better than air by multiples ,the only downside to the charge cooler is one of cost
I have tried with the various means of cooling air,water and combined air and water also with different combinations of rads ,pumps, and plumbing - the water charge cooler works very well
even after a hard run on the road ,you can put your palm on the outlet horn without a problem.

charge coolers dont get that hot to require a fast cool down -they just get to a balance temp above ambient, with the pump running and the car stationary heat is still disipated as the water is circulated around the system ,and of course you are off boost (good job too if you consider the air intercooler does next to zero without forward speed)
You are correct the air intercoolers work well and are the simplest of devices with no moving parts and most cost effective cooling means.
The original question was are they cost effective? not do they work ? answer is yes they do work and cost effective depends on how much money you have spare

[Silent1]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

"But the point is there's no way a chargecooler can be as efficient as an intercooler, the amount of water isn't infinite so you've still got to cool it, with an intercooler, provided you've got decent airflow then a chargecooler will never match it for outright performance."


The normal car engine cooling is done using water and a small radiator and a pump - the heat energy post combustion is far greater than the inlet air -there is also a finite amount of water there

Yes but keeping water at 90C is easy, the energy required to keep it at that temperature is massive, in a chargecooler we're talking about keeping the water at or close to ambient.

Quote: Originally Posted by Minimaniauk

"For equal airflow an intercooler far outweighs a chargecooler for a road car IMHO, because a chargecooler requires a water tank, a pump, extensive tubing and an extra radiator, this adds up to a stack of weight over an intercooler".

tank /tubing /pump/and wires would weigh around 5 kg max -the cooler iteself an extra 2-3 kg max

water exchanges heat better than air by multiples ,the only downside to the charge cooler is one of cost
I have tried with the various means of cooling air,water and combined air and water also with different combinations of rads ,pumps, and plumbing - the water charge cooler works very well
even after a hard run on the road ,you can put your palm on the outlet horn without a problem.

charge coolers dont get that hot to require a fast cool down -they just get to a balance temp above ambient, with the pump running and the car stationary heat is still disipated as the water is circulated around the system ,and of course you are off boost (good job too if you consider the air intercooler does next to zero without forward speed)
You are correct the air intercoolers work well and are the simplest of devices with no moving parts and most cost effective cooling means.
The original question was are they cost effective? not do they work ? answer is yes they do work and cost effective depends on how much money you have spare

As for putting my hand on the outlet horn, i can do that on my intercooled MINI, it doesn't get massively hot.

This is all an exercise in arguing though as i'll be fitting a chargecooler to my mini at some point anyway, i'm just not convinced you're going to see brilliant gains if you're driving around in town.