[blaze6]

hi,
i was at 1320autos today to have the car dyno'd. my asc light was coming on alot so idecided to see what was going on. the car has had a bbr conversion consisting of a 19% pulley, gp intercooler, 380cc injectors, bbr cylinderhead, jcw airbox. bbr map.
on the dyno air intake temperatures were running up to 74 degrees C and the car was pinking as early as 4800 revs. boost was running in excess of 19 psi and that the AFR was lean most of the time.
i have to say these figures mean v.little to me. the expression on chris of 1320autos face was reminiscent of Dr. No in the bond movies "....you do not have long left to live Mr. Bond (or in this case my cooper s)...."
he essentially felt my car was an accident waiting to happen and recommended i switch to a 17%/15% pulley and upgrade the intercooler/injectors if i could afford to. then remap the car.
so i'm now sourcing various bits and bobs.
the car dyno'd 230 bhp/whp i'm not sure and 170 Nm at 7100rpm with heat holding back any further improvement in those figures.
one question: how close do RR figures match road driving. the fan's used on RRs can never match the wind velocity and cooling effect you would see if you were on a road going at high speeds. I was just wondering... i don't have the funds yet to get the kind of setups recommended by gizmos so i can see what's happening on the road, so i guess RR is the way to go. - better to be safe....

[Jaw_F430]

That's high inlet temps to be reaching as the weather is quite cool as well. 19% pulley is always going to produce a lot of heat as the S/C is operating well outside the window. I would switch to a 15% pulley if you want to keep the GP I/C or if you intend to upgrade the I/C them may be go 17% pulley.

(74DegC was that at the redline?)

How was your air fuel ratio? If this was very lean I would have 1320 autos do you a custom map.

It won't cost a lot to swap the pulley so that would be the first thing I would do. Also when choosing which pulley you want, consider if you want to keep stock rev limit or raise the limit.

Stock rev limit/raise slightly (7000-7200) -17% pulley

Raised rev limit (7300-7600) - 15% pulley

Do you know what your inlet temps was at before the dyno pull?

I would say the real world conditions are not too far from what you see on the dyno with the correct fan but I am not certain

[DaFlake]

I agree, the pulley is too small and you are not managing the heat well. Jaw_F430 has offered some great advice.

[Rigsey]

74c that's really high

Mine peaked at 52c on 1320's dyno with a 17% pulley and GRS IC

[blaze6]

[quote=Jaw_F430;3494388]That's high inlet temps to be reaching as the weather is quite cool as well. 19% pulley is always going to produce a lot of heat as the S/C is operating well outside the window. I would switch to a 15% pulley if you want to keep the GP I/C or if you intend to upgrade the I/C them may be go 17% pulley.

(74DegC was that at the redline?)

the 74 deg c i believe was close to or at the red line. it was reading 60+ at 5000 rpm. i don't recall the exact figures.

How was your air fuel ratio? If this was very lean I would have 1320 autos do you a custom map.

yes, the AFR was v.lean and i am having them do me a custom map!

It won't cost a lot to swap the pulley so that would be the first thing I would do. Also when choosing which pulley you want, consider if you want to keep stock rev limit or raise the limit.

i have got hold of a 17% pulley alta v2 for a favorable price. so i'm going to have that fitted.

B]I don't know my inlet temps previously[/b]

also my GP intercooler is pretty filthy, i haven't cleaned it yet so i'm going to get some acetone.
OCC recently fitted. this may also be a factor.

[DaFlake]

Sounds like you have a plan.

[Jaw_F430]

[quote=sayanthan;3494428]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jaw_F430 (original)

That's high inlet temps to be reaching as the weather is quite cool as well. 19% pulley is always going to produce a lot of heat as the S/C is operating well outside the window. I would switch to a 15% pulley if you want to keep the GP I/C or if you intend to upgrade the I/C them may be go 17% pulley.

(74DegC was that at the redline?)

the 74 deg c i believe was close to or at the red line. it was reading 60+ at 5000 rpm. i don't recall the exact figures.

How was your air fuel ratio? If this was very lean I would have 1320 autos do you a custom map.

yes, the AFR was v.lean and i am having them do me a custom map!

It won't cost a lot to swap the pulley so that would be the first thing I would do. Also when choosing which pulley you want, consider if you want to keep stock rev limit or raise the limit.

i have got hold of a 17% pulley alta v2 for a favorable price. so i'm going to have that fitted.

B]I don't know my inlet temps previously[/b]

also my GP intercooler is pretty filthy, i haven't cleaned it yet so i'm going to get some acetone.
OCC recently fitted. this may also be a factor.

Sounds like your going the right way

With the V2 pulley I believe you can easily switch to 15% if you wanted to so good choice

60 DegC@5000 is high as mine would only reach 58-60DegC @7600!! That shows you the difference with 19% vs15%

Yes a clean of the I/C will improve the efficiency as the built up oil residue will be reducing the cooling effectiveness.

[blaze6]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaFlake (original)

Sounds like you have a plan.

indeed i do have a plan! presumably high boost itself isn't the issue? rather the temperatures generated?
2 obvious things to upgrade with this regard are the intercooler and radiator? as i know my intercooler's dirty, i'm kinda hoping (?false hope) giving it a good clean will constitute an upgrade! i know minimaniauk are selling high performance cooper s radiators with 50% increased cooling so i think i'll get one of those...and they're rated for higher boost as they're completely aluminium.

[MINI-Morgan]

I would say otherwise.... your issue is too much boost for your current fueling. If its a BBR then im guessing you are running the BBR (MTH dodged) remap also?? I will make an assumption that you are running out of fuel pressure to keep it rich as the fueling is boost varied by the pressure regulator which doesnt have the ablity to work beyond 17psi.

The only options I can think are:-

1) larger pulley
2) higher pressure fuel pump (not the best idea...)
3) bigger injectors and lower fuel pressure regulator
4) Try and map through it.

The cheapest option is to increase the fuel mapping which Chris can easily do for you. Second cheapest option is to drop 2psi+ of boost with a larger pulley and see if the fuelling is then correct.

On the road a 19% if the temps are managed properly is much faster than a 15%. Too many people get hung up on HP figures until they get lost in the trail of someone that has torque. HP only means you can stay in gear longer so potentially faster 0-100 but that isnt everyday driving now is it?

p.s. do you have the boost/bhp/whp/torque/AFR graphs to post up??

[blaze6]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI-Morgan (original)

I would say otherwise.... your issue is too much boost for your current fueling. If its a BBR then im guessing you are running the BBR (MTH dodged) remap also?? I will make an assumption that you are running out of fuel pressure to keep it rich as the fueling is boost varied by the pressure regulator which doesnt have the ablity to work beyond 17psi.

The only options I can think are:-

1) larger pulley
2) higher pressure fuel pump (not the best idea...)
3) bigger injectors and lower fuel pressure regulator
4) Try and map through it.

The cheapest option is to increase the fuel mapping which Chris can easily do for you. Second cheapest option is to drop 2psi+ of boost with a larger pulley and see if the fuelling is then correct.

On the road a 19% if the temps are managed properly is much faster than a 15%. Too many people get hung up on HP figures until they get lost in the trail of someone that has torque. HP only means you can stay in gear longer so potentially faster 0-100 but that isnt everyday driving now is it?

p.s. do you have the boost/bhp/whp/torque/AFR graphs to post up??

when you say increase the fuel mapping - do you mean purely a remap - i wouldn't need bigger injectors?
what about the intake temperatures? aren't they an issue?
i haven't got the boost/torque/afr graphs, i'll call chris tomorrow and see if i can get him to email them to me or if he could post it himself.
i agree with you about HP. i'd much prefer torque! but with my 19% pulley i'm getting 170nM torque and 230bhp, -interesting as BBR quote "192Nm torque and 240bhp on the dyno" i understand my relative lack of torque is because of two things - high temperatures and leaning out on the fuelling.

[Jaw_F430]

Quote: Originally Posted by sayanthan (original)

when you say increase the fuel mapping - do you mean purely a remap - i wouldn't need bigger injectors?
what about the intake temperatures? aren't they an issue?
i haven't got the boost/torque/afr graphs, i'll call chris tomorrow and see if i can get him to email them to me or if he could post it himself.
i agree with you about HP. i'd much prefer torque! but with my 19% pulley i'm getting 170nM torque and 230bhp, -interesting as BBR quote "192Nm torque and 240bhp on the dyno" i understand my relative lack of torque is because of two things - high temperatures and leaning out on the fuelling.

Inlet temps are always an issue. The torque seems really low, are you sure its not 170 lbs ft and not NM?

What injectors are you running?

IMO I would say it is hard to control the inlet temps with a 19% pulley on the road as 15% is bad enough

[MINI-Morgan]

Yep just a remap.

Are they an issue? on the dyno when you hit 50 degrees your timing would have retarded and your fuelling would have got slightly richer. Get chris or paul to sit in the car with you when you drive around the block and monitor the IATs. Even on dynos with good fans i've seen temps 3 times the ambient temp.

Id be interested to see your torque graph as a peak torque above 4-5K rpm is strange on the MCS. Should be pulling like a train as it is......especially low down.

[MINIAC]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jaw_F430 (original)

The torque seems really low, are you sure its not 170 lbs ft and not NM?

It must be lb-ft

From the BBR site:

BBR 220 Kit = 218BHP @ 6750 and 196LB-FT @ 5100
BBR 240 Kit = 241BHP @ 6950 and 214LB-FT @ 5200

[blaze6]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIAC (original)

It must be lb-ft

From the BBR site:

BBR 220 Kit = 218BHP @ 6750 and 196LB-FT @ 5100
BBR 240 Kit = 241BHP @ 6950 and 214LB-FT @ 5200

yes you're right! - i got the torque units wrong!
i'll ask chris if he could do a live run and check the IATs - that's a v.good idea.

[batou]

If anyone needs proof of how shoddy some conversions are then there you go. BBR are supposed to be reputable and were featured on top gear. Yes that conversion gives you more power but you cars usable life will shortened considerably, not only that... its not making the quoted figures anyway!

I believe 1320 have tested the inlet temps on the dyno against what they get on the road in order make sure it gives a good comparison. If you noticed Chris lets the car idle and has the fan blowing into the intake to give the car its best chance of producing power within the correct temperature window before temp clipping kicks in. You car doesn't have cold air blowing in while your sat in traffic so if anything they are going to be worse!!!

Once your car hits 60 degrees your losing power, just goes to show that with inadequate cooling the 19% pulley is useless after 4800rpm in this weather. An example of 1320's attitude to tuning at it's best here, get a good solid reliable base before throwing money at it. If it was me I'd be outside the BBR office waving a dyno sheet and afr figures at them!!

Edit:

My suggestion would be:
15 or 17% Pulley £300 fitted.
RMW Custom Tune £178 + dyno time.
Possibly some bigger, new injectors.

[blaze6]

Quote: Originally Posted by batou (original)

If anyone needs proof of how shoddy some conversions are then there you go. BBR are supposed to be reputable and were featured on top gear. Yes that conversion gives you more power but you cars usable life will shortened considerably, not only that... its not making the quoted figures anyway!

I believe 1320 have tested the inlet temps on the dyno against what they get on the road in order make sure it gives a good comparison. If you noticed Chris lets the car idle and has the fan blowing into the intake to give the car its best chance of producing power within the correct temperature window before temp clipping kicks in. You car doesn't have cold air blowing in while your sat in traffic so if anything they are going to be worse!!!

Once your car hits 60 degrees your losing power, just goes to show that with inadequate cooling the 19% pulley is useless after 4800rpm in this weather. An example of 1320's attitude to tuning at it's best here, get a good solid reliable base before throwing money at it. If it was me I'd be outside the BBR office waving a dyno sheet and afr figures at them!!

Edit:

My suggestion would be:
15 or 17% Pulley £300 fitted.
RMW Custom Tune £178 + dyno time.
Possibly some bigger, new injectors.

i could go to BBR, i had approached them first, but they had a 2 week wait - clashed with work commitments.....

it also turns out that the 19% pulley will be a bugger to get off the supercharger so i need a new supercharger.

the injectors are on order and i've got the 17% pulley.

i'm not sure which is better, an RMW custom map or chris custom mapping the car. is jan that **** hot?

[batou]

Quote: Originally Posted by sayanthan (original)

i could go to BBR, but i suspect this will be a waste of time, and i'm not going to get much un the way of anything from them as the conversion was done in september of last year, i wished i'd dyno'd the car sooner!

it also turns out that the 19% pulley will be a bugger to get off the supercharger so i need a new supercharger.

the injectors are on order and i've got the 17% pulley.

i'm not sure which is better, an RMW custom map or chris custom mapping the car. is jan that **** hot?

Harsh, that really sucks. Just make sure you get a teflon one.

Good call, make sure you get the Alta then you can swap to a 15% if ever the need be.

I believe Chris and Jan work together to create the RMW/1320 custom map. I know Chris has the software and knows his stuff well enough so its entirely possible, I have heard the ChrisTune(TM) is pretty good. I'm getting this done as soon as I have some spare cash and I'm allowed.

[k-huevo]

That inlet temp is not too outrageous for this combo on a dyno and the GP IC is far from inadequate. Reported boost is on the high side for a 19% equipped Eaton M45, so I think perhaps the head is not flowing well and/or the exhaust side is isn’t up to the task. The mention of lean A/F was probably giving the most cause for concern here. The OP has decided to try a marginally larger pulley, but it also will not perform optimally without addressing downstream inefficiencies; don’t get hung-up on the 19%’s IAT as the root issue, I’ve experienced very good performance in the past with a 19% despite much higher peak IAT than mentioned here. Of course a proper tune with appropriate scaling for the injectors is beneficial. Can fuel quality be ruled out in this case?

[batou]

Quote: Originally Posted by k-huevo (original)

That inlet temp is not too outrageous for this combo on a dyno and the GP IC is far from inadequate. Reported boost is on the high side for a 19% equipped Eaton M45, so I think perhaps the head is not flowing well and/or the exhaust side is isn’t up to the task. The mention of lean A/F was probably giving the most cause for concern here. The OP has decided to try a marginally larger pulley, but it also will not perform optimally without addressing downstream inefficiencies; don’t get hung-up on the 19%’s IAT as the root issue, I’ve experienced very good performance in the past with a 19% despite much higher peak IAT than mentioned here. Of course a proper tune with appropriate scaling for the injectors is beneficial. Can fuel quality be ruled out in this case?

Well seen as after 60 degrees your car pulls ignition timing to compensate, personally I think that kind of IAT isn't good. If a is car pinking at 4800rpm its getting too hot, the fuel is not good enough and there isn't enough of it. It does sound like there is more to it but the 19% is not a good choice imo. There are better, safer and more reliable ways of reaching the same level without resorting to winding up the boost. If there is a head related problem who's to say the 19% hasn't led it down that path in the first place.

It needs a proper map, the inter-cooler de-oiling, a leakdown and compression test, injectors checking/replacing and personally I'd ditch the 19% it pushes the superchargers internal recommended rev limit way past the supposed 17,200rpm max.

Its just a badly set up conversion, the map is not matched to cooling capabilities and the heat generated by the changes.

[GRSmotorsport]

Quote: Originally Posted by batou (original)

I believe Chris and Jan work together to create the RMW/1320 custom map. I know Chris has the software and knows his stuff well enough so its entirely possible, I have heard the ChrisTune(TM) is pretty good. I'm getting this done as soon as I have some spare cash and I'm allowed.

I can vouch for Chris's work,he spent a number of years with Cosworth plus he tuned my Escort Cosworth some years ago with excellent results.