[ffc]

Saturdays Telegraph motoring section has a Hartge vs JCW review on a double page spread. They say the JCW is more mid range torquey and the Hartge is top end scream. They debate the warranty issue, place complete faith in Hartge/Birds to be honest and warranty stuff properly and ultmately prefer the Hartge. They do question the need for a conversion at all though.

[jdw5155]

If you can, scan in the article to share with the rest of us. It sounds like just the sort of read necessary to get yet another debate all whipped up and frothy.

Thanks in advance,
Jim

[Boo]

I think any kit would be a good thing... from the reports we've had from the guys with Digi-Tec, Hartge and JCW they all sound like screamers... (for me i think the Digi-Tec might be marginally ahead due to its value for money as it includes suspension mods)

But i second jdw in saying "would love to read it"

[ffc]

I don't have a scanner, but the test reports normally appear in the motoring section of telegraph.co.uk sometime during the week after they're published.

[Tone]

ffc

Thanks for that. Would have missed it this week otherwise. Good read.

[Kupa]

Guys

This article is now up and can be found at http://motoring.telegraph.co.uk/moto.../emfmini22.xml

And if you don't want to know which they prefer, look away now...



















Hartge! ;-)

[GTT 280]

Does the Hartge conversion have double twin exhausts like the BMW M3 ?

[Pav]

I believe it is an option, i.e. not included in the engnie conversion kit/price.

[JBOO]

I haven't been able to open the link--think it's blocked by my firewall somehow.

Can you give a quick synopsis of why they prefer the Hartge?

Price, performance, etc.....

Thanks in advance-

[QQQ]

Quote:

Originally posted by EB MINI
Does the Hartge conversion have double twin exhausts like the BMW M3 ?

No, that's the Birds exhaust. The Hartge exhaust has two round 75 mm centre tail pipes

[Kupa]

To quote from them, copyright acknowledged:

"Conclusion

Engine conversions such as these eat into a manufacturer's natural caution as well as its safety and durability margins. Extra power and torque eat gearboxes and put additional strain on the rest of the driveline components, while forced induction and the extra cylinder pressure it creates pollutes the engine oil quickly. If you boost an engine and then disregard basic oil change services, you're a fool.

As far as the warranty is concerned, the Cooper Works has BMW's official backing and every clause stays in place. The Hartge is unauthorised, but that doesn't mean the warranty is worthless. The engine and driveline are covered by Hartge and the rest of the car will be covered by BMW. The official £100 TLC five-year service and maintenance package is more circumspect, but numerous BMW dealers will honour its letter even with an unauthorised but well-known engine conversion. In nearly 14 years of dealing with Hartge and its agent, Birds Garage, we have never once heard of a disgruntled owner left high and dry by BMW or Hartge.

Before you decide your Cooper S needs more power, however, drive it in standard form for a few months - its 161bhp is more than enough to make it a very fast car with a virtually unburstable feel. And do remember that pushing 200-plus horsepower through the front wheels is asking a lot of the car's roadholding, not to mention its driver. At no time was the standard Cooper S unable to keep up; the driver just had to work (a lot) harder.

Of the two conversions, the Works car is more expensive, with a bigger mid-range punch, and that Cooper name will sway more than a few to make the choice. We preferred the more subtle Hartge, with its brilliant engine management tweaks that reduce the harshness of the Brazilian engine and a stunning top end, which mean you can drive your MINI as a normal Cooper S until you want to grow horns and extend that needle up the dial. With the standard, 16in wheels, we suspect it would be even better."

[JBOO]

Thanks Kupa! I only asked for a quick synopsis hehe Very interesting article though.
Adds a lot of fuel to the JCW/Hartge/Digi-Tec fire...

JBOO

[Kupa]

I know this has been done a million times before but...

Their conclusion surprised me when it said that the JCW had greater mid range punch: the Hartge has the greater talk lower down the range. I would have expected the opposite to be true.

I also think their power figures are wrong as I believed that the Hartge delivered 212bhp at 6000 rpm. Can anyone confirm.

By the way, if anything this has made me want to wait a while until I get bored of 161bhp in such in entertaining chassis...

[jdw5155]

Any idea if Hartage will be offering packages here in the US?

BTW Kupah, nice choice of colors...

Jim

[rasp]

Quote:

Originally posted by jdw5155
Any idea if Hartage will be offering packages here in the US?

BTW Kupah, nice choice of colors...

Jim

Hi

I believe it is going to the USA but to be sure get in touch with www.birds.uk.com for a definate yes or no to your question.

Rasp

[rasp]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kupa
To quote from them, copyright acknowledged:

"Conclusion

Engine conversions such as these eat into a manufacturer's natural caution as well as its safety and durability margins. Extra power and torque eat gearboxes and put additional strain on the rest of the driveline components, while forced induction and the extra cylinder pressure it creates pollutes the engine oil quickly. If you boost an engine and then disregard basic oil change services, you're a fool.

As far as the warranty is concerned, the Cooper Works has BMW's official backing and every clause stays in place. The Hartge is unauthorised, but that doesn't mean the warranty is worthless. The engine and driveline are covered by Hartge and the rest of the car will be covered by BMW. The official £100 TLC five-year service and maintenance package is more circumspect, but numerous BMW dealers will honour its letter even with an unauthorised but well-known engine conversion. In nearly 14 years of dealing with Hartge and its agent, Birds Garage, we have never once heard of a disgruntled owner left high and dry by BMW or Hartge.

Before you decide your Cooper S needs more power, however, drive it in standard form for a few months - its 161bhp is more than enough to make it a very fast car with a virtually unburstable feel. And do remember that pushing 200-plus horsepower through the front wheels is asking a lot of the car's roadholding, not to mention its driver. At no time was the standard Cooper S unable to keep up; the driver just had to work (a lot) harder.

Of the two conversions, the Works car is more expensive, with a bigger mid-range punch, and that Cooper name will sway more than a few to make the choice. We preferred the more subtle Hartge, with its brilliant engine management tweaks that reduce the harshness of the Brazilian engine and a stunning top end, which mean you can drive your MINI as a normal Cooper S until you want to grow horns and extend that needle up the dial. With the standard, 16in wheels, we suspect it would be even better."

[Shamster]

Hmmmmm....that decision now seems a step closer!

[MichaelK]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kupa
I know this has been done a million times before but...

Their conclusion surprised me when it said that the JCW had greater mid range punch: the Hartge has the greater talk lower down the range. I would have expected the opposite to be true.

I also think their power figures are wrong as I believed that the Hartge delivered 212bhp at 6000 rpm. Can anyone confirm.

By the way, if anything this has made me want to wait a while until I get bored of 161bhp in such in entertaining chassis...

The official Hartge figure is 200bhp and 7500rpm, but birds quote 212bhp at 7500rpm

Cheers

Michael

[Kupa]

Quote:

Originally posted by shamster


Hmmmmm....that decision now seems a step closer!

Come on then! You have to be going the Hartge route surely...?

[QQQ]

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaelK
The official Hartge figure is 200bhp and 7500rpm, but birds quote 212bhp at 7500rpm

Cheers

Michael

Hartge conversion has (at least) a guaranteed 200 HP (TüV approved). Hartge informed me that most of their conversions did 212 to 215 HP on the dyno.