[JBOO]

Hate to beat a dead horse again, but I can't help it

I was just reading an article in Motor Trend magazine about 3 super compacts and I couldn't help but think of JCW.
The comparison was of a Dodge SRT-4, a MazdaSpeed Protege and a Ford SVT Focus. Maybe these are not direct competitors with the Mini Cooper JCW, however, they are factory tuned and warranted compact cars for $20,000.

For simplicity, I will only give you the specs of one car, the MazdaSpeed Protege, but I think you will get the point.

In addition to a normal Mazda Protege, the kit includes:
-Turbocharger
-Intercooler
-new clutch disk
-limited slip differential
-larger drive shaft
-Macphereson Struts
-Tokico Shocks and springs
-Strut tower brace
-anti-roll bar bushings
-larger brakes
-performance tires
-new wheels
-new front and rear aprons
-new speed shifter
-new race pedals
-450 watt Kenwood stereo, including subwoofer
-carbon fiber interior trim

A 35% increase in HP and here's the kicker , the price is only $3,200!!
If that isn't a clear enough example of why people are upset and disappointed in the cost of the JCW kit, what is?
I'm sure the pro JCW crowd will have something to say, but maybe I should mention the SRT-4? 0-60 MPH in 5.4 and
1/4 mile in 13.5. Cost? An additional $2500!!

Now I agree these aren't Mini's, but they are similarly priced cars that offer as much performance than the JCW, for much less money. I'm also sure you won't be seeing many discussions about these kits not being worth the money. Too bad BMW and JCW couldn't have offered the same.

[thanos30]

Well, there is one problem - those are "regular" cars, and we have small BMWs. As a machine shop guy told me, everything will cost more for the MINI.

I joked with the guy to buy an old Camero and replace the engine with a 494 V8 of about 600 hp (and $7,000). Which then led to the thought - what if I take out the MINI engine and use that V8 in the back? That would run 9s!

[Cape Cod MINI]

Quote:

Originally posted by thanos30
Well, there is one problem - those are "regular" cars, and we have small BMWs. As a machine shop guy told me, everything will cost more for the MINI.

I joked with the guy to buy an old Camero and replace the engine with a 494 V8 of about 600 hp (and $7,000). Which then led to the thought - what if I take out the MINI engine and use that V8 in the back? That would run 9s!

Possibly 7's!!
Seriously, it seems with the JCW you are paying an extra 3 grand for warranty.

[JBOO]

I would almost agree with you, but here's another example that includes a lot for about $3,800.00

Performance Package includes engine modifications to 235 hp @ 5900 rpm and 222 lb-ft of torque @ 3500 rpm, increase redline to 6800 rpm and increase top speed to 155 mph, 3.07:1 performance final drive gear ratio, short throw shifter, sport tuned suspension, 8-way power and 2-way manual front sport seats with 3-position memory for driver seat and exterior mirrors, automatic tilt-down passenger side exterior mirror when reverse gear is engaged, cloth/alcantara seating upholstery, alcantara-wrapped M sport steering wheel with cruise, audio and accessory phone controls (when phone is selected as an accessory), aluminum "Black Cube" interior trim, anthracite headliner, BMW M aerodynamic package including rear spoiler, high gloss Shadowline (black) exterior trim, 18" x 8.0" front and 18" x 8.5" rear M Double Spoke alloy wheels with P225/40ZR18 front and P255/35ZR18 rear performance tires, anthracite surrounds for the headlights and foglights and stainless steel exhaust outlets.

Oh I forgot top mention, this is the performance package for the BMW 330i. Same manufacture, hmmmmmm?????????????

[minimc]

The MINI Cooper S is a great car, but its performance figures (aside from handling prowess "stock out of the box") are quickly becoming yawn teritory.

To the guy who said its a bimmer - OK fine, call it a BMW, lord know's were paying BMW prices, but where's that ever-lovin BMW power? ...I'm waiting (still).

JCW is a year late and 40 horsepower short.

I don't care about the excuses of reliability/paying for warranty. ...All of these companies have to make money, all compete in the same world market. How's it that the other cars are sold with so much? - Rhetorical question... I know how.

The JCW MINI Cooper S just doesn't produce - & for the $ that kit costs it bloody well ought to SMOKE those other "lessor" cars!

Unfortunately leaves me asking the old Wendy's hamburger chain question "Where's the beef"?!

[Old School Jonnie]

I really don't get this................don't get me wrong guys but having owned a MINI Cooper and now an MCS I'm more than chuffed with the performance. Surely the whole thing about the MINI, and the original (having owned several) is the handling???
Yes I agree, the JCW kit is silly money, if I had it to spend I would. If you want a Mazda or a Ford then buy one.
Perhaps you just bought the wrong car.............?
Each to their own guys

[mikehome1]

The real roblem here is that we can buy similar performance parts for a ton less.I spent about $1000 for a Rouge intake and a Quicksilver exhaust,did the labor myself.I'm about to mount my $200 swaybar,as soon as my $700 wheels and Kuhmo tires are delivered.Randy,of Minimotorsport, is coming to Cincinnati in two weeks to install a reduction pulley and remap the ECU for $1100.
I've done some prudent shopping,but I will have a similar car to the Cooper Works for $3000.That price includes the pulley labor.I don't know whatelse the works kit includes,but I think it's $5900 sans labor.

[TonyB]

Plus, you should have more power, with improved traction & handling to boot. And still left our a "new" head (like JCW), a header, throttle body, lightened flywheel, LSD, performance cluth... That might all equal JCW

[MGB Boy]

Quote:

Originally posted by mikehome1
The real roblem here is that we can buy similar performance parts for a ton less.I spent about $1000 for a Rouge intake and a Quicksilver exhaust,did the labor myself.I'm about to mount my $200 swaybar,as soon as my $700 wheels and Kuhmo tires are delivered.Randy,of Minimotorsport, is coming to Cincinnati in two weeks to install a reduction pulley and remap the ECU for $1100.
I've done some prudent shopping,but I will have a similar car to the Cooper Works for $3000.That price includes the pulley labor.I don't know whatelse the works kit includes,but I think it's $5900 sans labor.

Close, you're only $1400 off, it's $4500 sans 10 hours labor...

-Ricardo

[VerticalMini]

Don't forget that it is power to weight ratio. We have lighter cars so they don't need as much power to go faster. I agree JCW kit is probably not worth all the cash outlay. Just find a good mechanic to install the Mania 15% pulley, Borla or Magnaflow exhaust and be done with it, got all mine installed for $2500 including parts and the car kicks butt. They ported the intake while it was apart and car is dramatically improved - no harshness like it had when new. No power fall off above 5200 RPM. Better and better increasingly to redline. Pulls mid 14s in the 1/4 mile, stays with an E46 on the track.

Still want more??? Put it on the bottle for a mild 50HP shot and it will be scary. Want to go faster - here is where real commitment begins - New Rods, pistons, crank to get over 2 liters. By then you have a 300BHP beast - but it is still light. No V8 required. Just be creative. Careful where you point it. Make some weight mods (get rid of 200lbs) and you have a Viper in Mini clothes. Still think a Neon is a bargain? We drive the most tunable car on the planet. And it already comes with the best suspension money can buy.

My worry is - how do you put 300 front driven HP to the ground without... um massive torque steer?

[Jimbo_Mini]

The problem is that the JCW kit is installed as an add-on. There's wasted labor and parts. If the components were installed at the factory, or if the MCS naturally came with the JCW parts, then the incremental price would be but a fraction of the add-on price.

-Jim

[minimc]

Quote:

Originally posted by Old School Jonnie
I really don't get this................don't get me wrong guys but having owned a MINI Cooper and now an MCS I'm more than chuffed with the performance. Surely the whole thing about the MINI, and the original (having owned several) is the handling???
Yes I agree, the JCW kit is silly money, if I had it to spend I would. If you want a Mazda or a Ford then buy one.
Perhaps you just bought the wrong car.............?
Each to their own guys

I'm tired of this "get another car if you don't like the MINI" crap. This is the SAME logic folks disliked during the recent hostilities in Iraq - "either your with us or against us." Americans acusing Americans of being unpatriotic if they oposed the war or aspects of it. Broaden that that narrow mind.

Surely Mini owners can love thier MINI but lament BMW's unwillingness to give it more oomph for the money?

The point everyone's getting at is we're already paying a premium price to a premium manufacturer. And what we expected was premium performance. What we got was average performance @ a premium price. The yardstick is other cars in the catagory - there's no escaping it.

It used to be that you got more than a name when you bought BMW. These days you still get the name & good engineering, but you don't get the superior GO that also used to be part of the deal. Too many cars with similar.

The new MINI is an enthusiast based car. So forgive me if the enthusiast in me wants (& moreover expects) SERIOUS performance from a kit that bears the John Cooper name & is endorsed by BMW. In contrast the JCW kit offers so little to the enthusiast its difficult to see it in those terms. You get heritage, badging, warranty + 39 hp. Frankly I only value the first and last parts. The warranty shouldn't be an issue, and the badging is like wearing a shirt with the BRAND X label on the outside. NO THANKS

If I were BMW I would find it embarassing that consumers can purchase a neon or civic (for less or = $) that's quicker/faster. Isn't BWM supposed to be one of the best auto manufactureres in the world? What's up then?

[Tone]

Roll on the day when they start using aluminium and composites, and get that weight reduced!!

[thanos30]

Quote:

Originally posted by minimc
The point everyone's getting at is we're already paying a premium price to a premium manufacturer. And what we expected was premium performance. What we got was average performance @ a premium price.

If I were BMW I would find it embarassing that consumers can purchase a neon or civic (for less or = $) that's quicker/faster. Isn't BWM supposed to be one of the best auto manufactureres in the world? What's up then?

Premium car means unique, looks impressive, lots of features.

The sad part is how we've been suckered on performance. To start out with a car which is assumed to be "great" and then learn it can't win worth a damn against those "cheap" cars. It's not just the JCW which borrows an old name, "Mini" carries history which the new car relies on.

Everyone talks about the slalom, better than a Porsche and so on, well, that's just one test with a minor advantage.

From Car & Driver, the MCS has a 0-60 of 7.0s, 169' braking from 70, and 0.85g on the skidpad. Compare to the Dodge SVT-4, 5.6s, 167', and 0.85g. The SRT-4, Focus, Protege, and Sentra excel at certain tests, all $4,000+ cheaper than a MCS (the best skidpad was the Protege at 0.89g). Then think what $4000 of mods will buy you at Ford prices.

On the upside, we have 3x as many air bags, all sorts of better thought out details, better handling with some minor improvements (which they can't match), with pleasant history and an outstanding form. Not a bad package...

What I have learned is, enjoy the car. I see old guys with their little convertible Fiats, they have some emotional attachment to their car. A bare bones Civic would beat them in every performance test, but that doesn't matter, no one cares about a utilitarian car.

[JBOO]

Didn't mean to start the BMW/Mini bashing. I'm a BMW fan and I love the Mini. I think it has good performance, but just not enough for my taste. I may have used the Mazda and Dodge in my example, but I would never choose one of those cars over my Mini, even if they out perform it. The Mini is special, however, I do not think that is a reason for BMW to over inflate the price of the JCW. It's a good kit, but the performance does not justify the cost. Hence, my example. Maybe the name/heritage does, but that is subjective.

I don't see BMW lowering the price of the JCW, however, maybe they should offer or endorse a lower priced kit as well. The JCW buyers would remain "elite" as some have described themselves and others, who only want a performance gain without the heritage price tag, will be happy too.

Just a thought!

[Keith]

We need to separate JCW bashing from Mini bashing. The Mini is a great package - true, the raw power is less than other hot compacts but the body and suspension is so much better that the whole package has competitive value. JCW on the other hand is over priced and does not represent the value BMW has proven to be able to deliver. I don't accept that $3,000 is for the warranty.

To put this in perspective - upgrading a BMW 330 with sport, performance and leather packages to an M3 costs about $5,200. OK - this isn't comparing apples to apples as this is a factory built car, not a dealer upgrade. But what you get with an M3 makes the JCW package look very limited.

[samagon]

the focus SVT, it is still a ford. the quality will be that of a ford.

the car was supposed to go for $19k, but I have heard of people picking them up for under invoice, around $14k. that is insane. performance numbers on the SVT aren't that great either. in fact, I would say that for the platform that has been updated to the SVT that the cost for the upgrade is more than the JCW.

the srt neon, is still a dodge.

while extremely fast in a straight line, well, I don't know what to say, it is fast in a straight line. I would also say that the cost of the upgrade is quite a bit as well.

the mazda is the best deal around, and clearly it is well underpriced for what it is. if I could bring myself to drive a mazda though...

then we come to the JCW mini. a car that will hold its value twice as well as any of the afore mentioned cars. and with the JCW kit? it will probably hold its value as well as a honda civic SI, as opposed to a ford taurus.

there are safe opperational limits of a 1.6l engine as well to consider. each of those other cars have a bigger engine so the price to add performance and retain reliability is cheaper.

anyway, the compairisons offered while performance wise are comparable, not much else is.

names cost money, quality build costs money. a lot of things cost money.

it is finding the propper balance _for yourself_ that is important.

you don't like the JCW, don't tell others they are wrong for liking it (or spending their money on it).

[Andy@Ross-Tech.com]

Quote:

Originally posted by samagon
the focus SVT, it is still a ford. the quality will be that of a ford.

... which has 30 fewer problems per 100 cars than MINI does:

[JBOO]

Quote:

which has 30 fewer problems per 100 cars than MINI does

Quote:

names cost money, quality build costs money. a lot of things cost money

MINI COOPER MSRP: $16,975 - $19,975

DODGE NEON MSRP : $13,575 - $19,995

Quote:

you don't like the JCW, don't tell others they are wrong for liking it (or spending their money on it).

I don't think anyone ever said that.

[MichaelK]

If you don't want the JCW or don't think its worth the money then fair enough, don't buy it.

BUT

The whole JCW bashing, moaning about the cost e.t.c is starting to get a little boring now, its been discussed to death in so many other threads.

Time to move on

Cheers

Michael