[ALX]

Little cautionary tale for you folks.

I had an idiot in a Toyota "white line sitting" on a country lane clap drivers side mirrors with me, flipping my mirror upwards and dislodging the glass, sadly. I was on my way in the general direction of work so immediately drove into my dealer's parts/service dept and asked for a replacement drivers side door mirrorglass for my mini. Luckily they had stock, and told me the price (for a heated one) was £34 including VAT.

This seemed a bit steep, but, hey - this is BMW. Nothing is cheap. Anyway, happy that I had managed to get a replacement only minutes after the first one was busted, I popped out into the carpark at the front of the dealership, connected up the heater wires and clicked the mirrorglass into position. Perfect. Good as new.

Or so I thought. I couldn't quite put my finger on what was different, but on my drive home from work I was definitely aware something was wrong now I had replaced the mirror. It took another BMW from the same dealer pulling up behind me, slightly to my right to tell me what was wrong : I could read the small print under his numberplate! The mirror was definitely magnifying everything much more than the one before.

This also (obviously) narrowed my field of view a lot. Taking a careful look, first at the passenger door (still fine) and then at the driver's door (seemed to magnify everything)... Convinced there was still a possibility of me going mad, I went back to the dealer who confirmed that my mini was one of the "few they'd ever seen" to have been factory fitted with Convex mirrors. Apparently they always supply flat mirrors, which is why the new one "appeared" to magnify everything. In reality the convex one is making everything look smaller.

But I hate the flat mirror - it makes reverse parking practically guesswork. Anyway they said they would order me in a convex mirror and swap it over.

Went down to the dealer after they had called me to let me know it had arrived in stock, and noticed they were trying to get me to sign (and pay) a second invoice!! For the new mirror!! I said they were going to swap it over, but they said they'd credit note me the original one "if it came off in once piece". After a long (but not heated) argument the basic outcome is they are refusing to replace the mirror that they **wrongly** supplied, without me actually paying for it. They reckon there's about a 50% chance of breaking the flat mirror trying to take it off.

The guy re-iterated that they'd never seen another mini with convex mirrors, so I asked if we could have a toddle around their parking and see what some of their minis had on them.. The first, had convex mirrors "gosh!", .... the second, had convex mirrors "-and you say you've never seen another car with convex mirrors eh?", the third - had convex mirrors....

My feeling here is that they supplied me the *wrong* part. I went in and asked for a replacement mirrorglass for *my* car, not one with flat mirrors. They didn't seem to realise until pressed that there were in fact two types; but that is not my fault ? Is it ? The dealer was adamant he had supplied "a different part" but not a "wrong one".

I am going to speak to the service manager tomorrow, but as a warning to everyone else out there who claps mirrors, check what type of mirror your car is fitted with before going in and asking for a part; I had no idea there were multiple types.. I wish I had; it'd have saved all this nonsense.

----- Also, just out of interest, if people are exceptionally bored, perhaps we could have a tally of flat to convex? I'd be interested to know if the "never seen another one like it" really is Bull, or whether in fact cars out there are mostly flat mirrored.....

Fun Fun Fun

Alex.

[stryder]

I thought the passenger mirror was different from the driver's mirror. Here in the US there's that insane 'objects in mirror may be closer then they appear' on the passenger side.

Due to the RHD/LHD differences, it'd make sense that MINI would make flat and convex mirrors for both sides, but it should be flat for driver and convex for passenger.

Oh, and your dealer fails the IQ test miserably, good you fought for the sensible solution.

[Paul]

Convex mirrors actually magnify the view, the one you had a replacement from that garage was a convex mirror. What your dealer is saying, and what they're trying to lead you to believe, is not right.

As it happens, all MINIs in the UK are supplied with the same standard flat glass on both mirrors.

The convex mirrors are an option for both passenger and drivers side in the UK, and will usually cost about £38 a side. See here: http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...nvex+mirror%2A

So what they have done is supplied you with one of the optional convex mirrors, to replace your standard mirror. Personally, I think the convex mirrors are a complete pain in the rear end, after driving a car with them for a few weeks, I learnt to hate them!

[ALX]

Hi Paul,

> Convex mirrors actually magnify the view, the one you had a replacement from that
> garage was a convex mirror. What your dealer is saying, and what they're trying to lead
> you to believe, is not right.

Are you sure this is right? Are you not thinking of "concave". A convex mirror will make things appear smaller, as far as I know.

To quote from : http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae449.cfm :

"the convex mirror is the tool that does the job of 'compression'. Just like the back of a spoon, anything in a convex mirror looks smaller than its actual size."

Meaning you can see a wider field of view, and everything looks smaller. My car's mirrors were both originally convex - although I assumed this was "as per standard". My dealer has replaced the busted one with a flat mirror, which they claim is the standard.

> As it happens, all MINIs in the UK are supplied with the same standard flat glass on
> both mirrors.

Again, all the cars in their parking area had mirrors that made everything look smaller. If you looked carefully you could see a curve on the lense. I think this throws into question whether or not they do fit flat mirrors as standard - doesn't it?

> The convex mirrors are an option for both passenger and drivers side in the UK, and will
> usually cost about £38 a side. See here:

Right... But mine already had convex mirrors, and they have replaced with a flat mirror.

> So what they have done is supplied you with one of the optional convex mirrors, to
> replace your standard mirror. Personally, I think the convex mirrors are a complete pain
> in the rear end, after driving a car with them for a few weeks, I learnt to hate them!

No, they have supplied a flat mirror, to replace mine, which was originally convex!

I'm sure I'm not going mad here.

Alex.

[Paul]

Mmm. Maybe I got my cons confused, but what I'm trying to say is just that the standard mirrors that mine and every other MINI (apart from one), that I've been in or driven have not really had much affect on magnification, that is to say, not really any more or less than any other car mirror I've used. Maybe they're not 100% flat, but they don't really "distort" your view.

The optional mirrors which I've used for a while in one car I had on loan magnified the view (concave I guess, not convex), and they reduced the overall field of vision, that is to say you could see things closer up, but when, for example, changing lanes on a motorway or just "looking back" in general, the overall view was greatly reduced. Annoyingly so.

Basically, what they've done is replace your standard mirrors, with the optional "magnified view" mirror.

In any case, they've given you a non standard part, and they should not expect you to pay anything for their mistake.

Apologies for mixing up my vexs and caves.

[ALX]

I know - I made the same mistake at first

However are you absolutely sure your "standard" mirrors are not convex?

This is so odd :

What you are saying is *exactly* what I said when I got my 'replacement' mirror; in other words "this is terrible - it's magnifying everything" --- but on close close inspection this is in fact a flat mirror! Nearly all cars have convex mirrors; I certainly cannot imagine a concave mirror on a car; that'd make it like one of those magnifying shaving mirrors!

I'd be interested; but if you look really carefully - are you *sure* yours aren't convex?

I think the 'magnification' you are talking about is just the weirdness of a flat mirror - nearly all cars have convex ones and it just looks mad...

Alex.

[Paul]

I'll have a look later, but the optional mirrors certainly appeared to magnify things. It's chucking it down with rain just now and I'm warm and cosy in front of the fire.

[Goonery]

UK spec have FLAT glass.


Thankyou please

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by goonery

UK spec have FLAT glass.


Thankyou please

Woo-hoo! He's mad, not me. Always good to know.




Now, where did I leave my my pogo stick and bubble pipe?

[ALX]

Hummm.. But every single MINI in the carpark at my dealer had mirrors that made things look a tiny bit smaller and increased the field of view.... Perhaps they have changed the standard spec?

A.

[Goonery]

Quote: Originally Posted by ALX

Hummm.. But every single MINI in the carpark at my dealer had mirrors that made things look a tiny bit smaller and increased the field of view.... Perhaps they have changed the standard spec?

A.

That would not be a smart move, and it would cost the dealer to make the change, its not a spec option either, so I'm confused. Anything looked at in a flat mirror will appear smaller than atual size because of the distance involved, only if you get really close would anything appear to be actual size, and even then its a matter of perspective. Halford are doing replacement pattern glass for MINI now, as long as you have the plastic clip on carrier in one piece, you can remove the old glass shards, and then put on a new one. About £10 I think.

[ALX]

Quote: Originally Posted by goonery

That would not be a smart move, and it would cost the dealer to make the change, its not a spec option either, so I'm confused. Anything looked at in a flat mirror will appear smaller than atual size because of the distance involved, only if you get really close would anything appear to be actual size, and even then its a matter of perspective. Halford are doing replacement pattern glass for MINI now, as long as you have the plastic clip on carrier in one piece, you can remove the old glass shards, and then put on a new one. About £10 I think.

Good point re the looking smaller. My real concern here isn't the physics (ie whether i have/had convex and whether i now have a flat mirror or one that magnifies) .. My concern is that my dealer has supplied me a part that doesn't exactly match the one that was originally on my vehicle. For that reason I won't be going to Halfords for a replacement. I will be arguing 'til I win. The fact is that my delaer have supplied me a different part to the one that was on there "as though" it was the same part. A clear case of misdescription (even if it was unintentional).

I'll see how I get on on Monday with them...

The main reason I was posting here was to alert people to CHECK the part their dealer supplies before paying for it; make them take it out of the packing and carefully compare it to the unbroken mirror; get them to hold it in loosely in the mirror casing while you sit in the car; does it look the same? if not ; don't pay until they get hold of the right one!

Alex.

[ALX]

Goodo. Just been onto the boss of chap I originally dealt with, who said that yes he accepted that they had supplied a different part to the one I had originally and that he'd try and get the flat mirror off without breaking it, but if he did, it would be their problem, not mine. Fine..

I re-echo my statement though ; save yourself all this nonsense if you whack a wing mirror glass; before you pay for it, get them to take it out of the box and offer it up to the mirror casing to see if it's the same. Only after giving it a careful visual check hand over any money!

A.

[Mini Cruiser]

my passenger side mirror is like that, i think when i had the colour coding done, maybe the bodyshop droped it by accident or sumut and the replacment bmw gave them was the magnatised one. Im use to it now tho, so i aint changin it lol

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by ALX

Goodo. Just been onto the boss of chap I originally dealt with, who said that yes he accepted that they had supplied a different part to the one I had originally and that he'd try and get the flat mirror off without breaking it, but if he did, it would be their problem, not mine. Fine..

Glad that's sorted.

[Enders]

Yeah, I had some kids try to vandalise my n/s mirror, breaking the glass. The replacement seemed to magnify. So the stock was convexed. The guarage are going to re do it but I was surprised that they "expect" to break the glass to remove it.

Bad design surely?

Concave magnifies, convex reduces the image (with wider feild of vision). Going from convex to flat would give the impression of magnification.

Does anyone know how to remove the glass "without" breaking it?

[ALX]

Quote: Originally Posted by Enders

Yeah, I had some kids try to vandalise my n/s mirror, breaking the glass. The replacement seemed to magnify. So the stock was convexed. The guarage are going to re do it but I was surprised that they "expect" to break the glass to remove it.

Bad design surely?

Concave magnifies, convex reduces the image (with wider feild of vision). Going from convex to flat would give the impression of magnification.

Does anyone know how to remove the glass "without" breaking it?

Sorry - why does it matter if they break it? Unless your dealer is proposing to charge you for their mistake? Obviously it would be less wasteful if they could remove it without breaking it I suppose. The mirror glasses *ARE* sometimes removable without breaking. the trick I think is to find a screwdriver, wrap a rag around it, tilt the mirror so one edge is as far out as it can be, then making sure the rag is around the bit of the screwdriver shaft that comes into contact with the mirror surround (so as not to mark or damage the surface). Gently (and then probably not so gently) try and prize the mirrorglass bit forward so it 'unpops'... Then repeat until the other "poppers" are detatched.

However - as I say this should not matter! Your dealer should take the fall if it breaks.

A

[twouptons]

I was under the impression that European standard mirrors were all convex, and that they were one of the things that had to be changed to bring a car to the US.

Our passenger mirrors can be convex (with the above-mentioned "objects in mirror are closer than they appear " warning on the mirror surface), but the driver's side must be flat. This makes mirror alignment pretty critical or you'll get a blind spot, even on a MINI...

Some people here will add small convex stick-on mirrors to the factory mirrors to increase the field of view for parking, etc. This is particularly common on large SUVs and minivans which have blind spots big enough for several MINIs.

-Eric

[Max25Mini]

It took me a while to find this thread but it has
saved me a lot of hassle!

Had the same problem, after replacing my passenger side mirror,
noticed that everything seemed horribly magnified and visibility
was seriously reduced.

I had been assured that there is no difference between driver and
passenger side mirror and in fact my driver's side mirror turned out
to be the same as the new passenger side one as it had the same
number on the back - total confusion!!

The explanations above sorted me out, ta very much!

I went back and bought two CONVEX mirrors for the passenger side.
Below the item numbers:
51 16 7 058 057 - Convex Mirror
51 16 7 058 061 - Flat Mirror