MINI2

Rapid Rog · Jul 18th, 2003, 12:42 PM

I picked up my Cooper S last week and have since put 750 miles on it. From day 1 it appeared to have a mild misfire on it that gradually became more noticeable. I can only describe it as a slight Kangarooing sensation when accelerating through the gears. It was most apparent when going up gradients. I contacted my dealer (Park Lane, London) whilst on holiday on the south west coast and he advised me to pull in to the first BMW/Mini dealership to get the car checked out. To cut a long story short - after BMW having the car for most of the day and numerous road tests by different technicians, checks on the engine management system and the data logger showing no recorded faults. I then took a technician out in the car and as is sods law the car drove without a hiccup!

The technician said it could have been either contaminated fuel of a bit of clutch judder while it was running in. He advised that I run the tank down until I have around 20 miles range left and then fill up. In the mean time it's still there but has not been as bad. Although, I'm now down to about 30 miles left in the tank and it does appear to be deteriorating again which may tie in with the contaminated fuel explanation.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

Paul · Jul 18th, 2003, 01:27 PM

Rapid Rog · Jul 18th, 2003, 05:12 PM

Paul,

Many thanks for your reply.

I'm shocked and more then a little annoyed that this problem has been left unresolved for so long.

I have forwarded the links to both my local service centre and dealership for their comments and feed back from BMW.

I will forward their response.

Regards
Rog

Zulu · Jul 18th, 2003, 08:19 PM

Rapid Rog,

Sorry mate - they got your money now and they don't care.

Maybe MiniDivision might assist you in making an appointment with your dealer so they can tell you they sold you a car that does not perform to design specifications and they have no fix for it.

Rapid Rog · Dec 5th, 2003, 10:28 PM

My opinion of the BMW/Mini brand has finally hit rock bottom. After 5 wasted months of denials, delay tactics and countless trips to my local BMW/Mini service centre, I finally managed to get my dealership to move on my misfiring Cooper S. They contacted Oxford and customer services to discuss the situation and any available options. Their response has left me completed speechless and feeling totally cheated.

What I consider to be a problem is actually a “characteristic of the car”. Because of this fact Mini do not consider the symptoms to be a priority and as such have no plans to modify the software in the near future. Also, after driving the car they do not consider the “characteristic” to be bad enough to warrant the replacement of the vehicle. Even though the technicians who drove the car said the misfire was “particularly bad” and the Oxford representative agreed that mine was one of the “worst examples” he had driven.

As a gesture of “good will” the dealership has offered to buy back my car for £1,200 less then I paid for it, as the vehicle is now 5 months old and has 3,800 miles on it. This, even though I have been complaining about the coughing and spluttering “characteristic” since day one!!

What can I say; I was suckered in by the Mini machine and purchased a product that has gone through what can only be described as the bare minimum of R&D and quality control and have paid the price for it.

LMB · Dec 5th, 2003, 10:56 PM

I've noticed my car stutters in first gear just for a second between 3,000/4,000 rpm. It doesn't do it all the time but its done it enough times now to get me concerned.

Is this what people call the 'Yo Yo' effect?

Having spent £3,500 on a Works Kit I'll be pretty peeved if I've got it.

Rapid Rog · Dec 5th, 2003, 11:39 PM

LMB,

Mine jerks quite violently from 2,800 rpm onwards in second and third gear at anything between a quarter and two-thirds acceleration.

There are so many terms for these different "characteristics" that I can't say for sure which one relates to mine. I simply class it as a very jerky misfire.

Regards
Rog

markjenn · Dec 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM

If you're this PO'd, take their money and run. Life's too short.

- Mark

LMB · Dec 5th, 2003, 11:53 PM

Quote: Originally Posted by Rapid Rog

LMB,

Mine jerks quite violently from 2,800 rpm onwards in second and third gear at anything between a quarter and two-thirds acceleration.

There are so many terms for these different "characteristics" that I can't say for sure which one relates to mine. I simply class is a very jerky misfire.

Regards
Rog

Hi Rog,

Mines nothing like that.

It stubbles occasionally in 1st for about a second. I'm just peeved cause there always seems to be something with these Minis's. If it's not one thing its another. I'm fed up of having to book my car into the dealership. This is the 3rd Mini I've own and I must have visited the dealership 15 -> 20+ times to get various faults fixed. And to be honest I'm sick of it.

scooperman_uk · Dec 7th, 2003, 05:19 PM

surely if enough people have this problem, why doesnt everyone document it and through the site here, send all the cases to the customer services department. power in weight of numbers. one car is easy to ignore, but a whole community of people that have the same problem surely that carries more clout... so how about a petition say "we refuse to accept the statement that yo-yo etc is a characteristic of the car etc..." action not words... thats the way to deal with this....

Rapid Rog · Dec 9th, 2003, 08:40 AM

Scoop,

I agree - bring it on!!

There have been so many different entries in various posts in 'Faults and Fixes', why not have a single Cooper S thread with the following:

Year
2003

Software Version
35

Engine Mods (if any)
None

Fault/s
Misfire in 2nd & 3rd from 2,800 rpm

Next!?

animal · Dec 10th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Oh dear,

I am getting very concerned after reading this thread.

2-3 days ago I noticed that my Hartge MCS was not running well at all, I think I have been lucky as my car has never suffered from the ' yo yo effect ' and to be honest up until now has been a great car to drive.

Anyway my MCS has developed a terrible mis-fire when going through the gears between 4-5000 rpm, up unitil now it has never had this problem. So as you do I went to my local BMW service centre to book the car in for its 1st service and also to have them look at the mis-fire.

The car was serviced ( big deal after all they only change the oil at the 1st service ! ) and I was contacted by BMW who told me that they could not fault the car and that there is no mis-fire and that I apparently had the so called MCS characteristic of the yo yo effect - i'm soory that is ********.

So I went to the garage really ****ed off that they think they can tell me how my car should be driving, after all I drive it every day and up until now there has been no misfire and if the current problem is a characteristic then a) why hasn't it done this before b) what a piece if **** of a car if you have to put up with such a problem, I mean this is really bad.

So next I took the head technician out with me for a test drive and at first the car seemed to be OK and I had to endure the MCS characteristic explaination yet again which by this time was beginning to really iritate me. However on the return journey to BMW garage the car began to mis-fire badly as it has been doing for the last week or so. The technician then had to admit defeat and swallow his pride, his words were " you definitly have a bad mis-fire there " - well i'm not being funny mate but I told you this all along and you just wanted to brush it off as a MCS common characteristic.

My advice to you guys, especially Rapid Rog is if you can't succeed in getting your message across seek some legal help because this is an example of a large multinational company flexing its muscles and ignoring the people who count the most, its customers. No way should a new car be mis-firing I mean this is misleading and simply untrue.

Anyway I will end on a happy note and maybe it may help you Rapid Rog as I am picking my MCS up today from the dealers and they have replaced the ignition coils and the long life spark plugs and apparentlty the problem is now resolved, we shall see and i'll let you all know when i get the car back home.

Happy motoring, if thats possible !

Animal.

Rapid Rog · Dec 10th, 2003, 04:52 PM

Animal,

Thanks for your input. Hartge MCS - very nice! I'm surprised that the service centre didn't try the old "not covered under warranty" chestnut, or are the stories true about the Hartge keeping the warranty, but not the free servicing true?

I agree with your "multinational abusing its power" comment and I am currently looking into the legal angle. For now it would be good to be able to gauge the extent of the problem. So other misfire/yo yo MCS owners please get in touch

Cough and splutter Rog

animal · Dec 11th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Rog,

Just to let you know ( and probably **** you off ) my nasty mis-fire has been sorted, the car is runing perfect.

Try to get BMW to change your plugs and ignition coils, this has sorted the problem for me.

Good luck

Rapid Rog · Dec 11th, 2003, 09:06 PM

I've been seeking some legal guidance, see below:

BUYING FROM A DEALER

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) is the statute which covers the sale whether it be a car, clothes or a toaster that you are buying.

When buying from a dealer, the law says that a car must be:

Of satisfactory quality
As described, and
Fit for the purpose

Satisfactory quality - It must meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as acceptable and be free from defects, except those which are specifically brought to the attention of the customer.

Fit For the Purpose - It must be reasonably fit for any normal purpose and this includes any purpose that you specify to the seller.

If any of the above are breached then, in theory, you may have the right to reject the vehicle and get your money back if you are reasonably quick. Alternatively the dealer might offer to replace or repair the car.

Once you have informed the dealer that you wish to reject the car, you must cease to use the vehicle. If the dealer, or finance company (if bought on hire purchase), is disputing the rejection, then it's up to you to prove your case. You will need to pay for an independent assessment of the car and sue for damages. If you do choose a repair, insist the dealer provides you with a hire car or pays any travelling expenses you incur while your new car is in the garage.

If the car is new, it is likely that the claim will be too high to be fought using the Small Claims procedure so you may have to pay for legal representation. All this can be pretty daunting and expensive. You need to weigh up the pros and cons before rejecting a car. Would a repair do just as well? Selecting a dealer that offers a no quibbles exchange policy may help.

When choosing a dealer, find a well established firm with a good reputation

. Check if the company belongs to a reputable trade association that operates according to a code of practice supported by the Office of Fair Trading

.

EXAMPLE CASE

I want to send back my new car and get my money back.

Q -
I picked up my new car on 31 October, however, it started stalling. I returned it to the dealer 2 days later and was advised there was a manufacturers fault. They have given me no definite date for repair and it has been in the garage for over two weeks now. I paid £6,000 cash and have £2,495 on credit. They have provided me with a hire car but I want to cancel the car and have my money back. Am I legally entitled to do so?
C.D, London

A -
Your letter indicates that the dealer is in breach of contract because your car is not of satisfactory quality (section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act). This is assuming that the problem was not revealed when you took the car for a test drive before you bought it.

As a consumer you are entitled first and foremost to have the car repaired within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you. As the garage has supplied you with a hire car, arguably, the offer of repair is not causing you significant inconvenience.

If, however, the delay in getting the repairwork done persists, ask for a replacement car. If the garage has not got one then you would be entitled to an appropriate price reduction. The right to reject comes at the bottom of the pecking order of remedies available to a consumer.

northandy · Dec 12th, 2003, 02:29 PM

You know this is the thing that annoys me so much about Mini, its a characteristic, what tosh !!...

The say the rattle my gearbox makes (that can be heard above the radio inside the car) is a characteristic.... ******** !, i've never heard such tripe, i even got a letter from Mini Uk saying that "Mini prides itself on a higher quality product than its competitors, etc etc, warranty, blah blah".... lifes to short for this shoddy treatment !

Jul 18th, 2003, 12:42 PM	#1
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	Cooper S Misfire I picked up my Cooper S last week and have since put 750 miles on it. From day 1 it appeared to have a mild misfire on it that gradually became more noticeable. I can only describe it as a slight Kangarooing sensation when accelerating through the gears. It was most apparent when going up gradients. I contacted my dealer (Park Lane, London) whilst on holiday on the south west coast and he advised me to pull in to the first BMW/Mini dealership to get the car checked out. To cut a long story short - after BMW having the car for most of the day and numerous road tests by different technicians, checks on the engine management system and the data logger showing no recorded faults. I then took a technician out in the car and as is sods law the car drove without a hiccup! The technician said it could have been either contaminated fuel of a bit of clutch judder while it was running in. He advised that I run the tank down until I have around 20 miles range left and then fill up. In the mean time it's still there but has not been as bad. Although, I'm now down to about 30 miles left in the tank and it does appear to be deteriorating again which may tie in with the contaminated fuel explanation. Has anyone else experienced anything similar?

Jul 18th, 2003, 01:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Paul Trained Monkey My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Bedfordshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 38,595 Offline	Hello, welcome to MINI2. They all do it to a certain degree, sadly. A search for surg* hiccup yoyo and some other words will bring a lot of conversations. Here's a few (I think) more recent discussions that tackle the subject: http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=25215 http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=28252 http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=33445 http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=34152 http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...threadid=26015 http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...hlight=surg%2A http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...hlight=surg%2A http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthrea...hlight=surg%2A And there's more... There aint no party like my nana's tea party

Jul 18th, 2003, 08:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zulu MINI2 Regular Join Date: May 2003 Location: S. FL Local Time: 01:53 AM Posts: 226 Offline	Rapid Rog, Sorry mate - they got your money now and they don't care. Maybe MiniDivision might assist you in making an appointment with your dealer so they can tell you they sold you a car that does not perform to design specifications and they have no fix for it. DS/W MCS 3/03 Awarded LEMON Status The yoyo is deemed to substantially impair the value of the car - by the FL Lemon Law. 4/14/04 In the end the LEMON squeezed itself so BMW can suck the juice.

Dec 5th, 2003, 10:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	Robbed and Cheated My opinion of the BMW/Mini brand has finally hit rock bottom. After 5 wasted months of denials, delay tactics and countless trips to my local BMW/Mini service centre, I finally managed to get my dealership to move on my misfiring Cooper S. They contacted Oxford and customer services to discuss the situation and any available options. Their response has left me completed speechless and feeling totally cheated. What I consider to be a problem is actually a “characteristic of the car”. Because of this fact Mini do not consider the symptoms to be a priority and as such have no plans to modify the software in the near future. Also, after driving the car they do not consider the “characteristic” to be bad enough to warrant the replacement of the vehicle. Even though the technicians who drove the car said the misfire was “particularly bad” and the Oxford representative agreed that mine was one of the “worst examples” he had driven. As a gesture of “good will” the dealership has offered to buy back my car for £1,200 less then I paid for it, as the vehicle is now 5 months old and has 3,800 miles on it. This, even though I have been complaining about the coughing and spluttering “characteristic” since day one!! What can I say; I was suckered in by the Mini machine and purchased a product that has gone through what can only be described as the bare minimum of R&D and quality control and have paid the price for it.

Dec 5th, 2003, 10:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
LMB Toon Toon.. <div><a href= Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Up North Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 22,993 Offline	I've noticed my car stutters in first gear just for a second between 3,000/4,000 rpm. It doesn't do it all the time but its done it enough times now to get me concerned. Is this what people call the 'Yo Yo' effect? Having spent £3,500 on a Works Kit I'll be pretty peeved if I've got it. Global Moderator

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Jul 18th, 2003, 05:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	Paul, Many thanks for your reply. I'm shocked and more then a little annoyed that this problem has been left unresolved for so long. I have forwarded the links to both my local service centre and dealership for their comments and feed back from BMW. I will forward their response. Regards Rog

Dec 5th, 2003, 11:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	LMB, Mine jerks quite violently from 2,800 rpm onwards in second and third gear at anything between a quarter and two-thirds acceleration. There are so many terms for these different "characteristics" that I can't say for sure which one relates to mine. I simply class it as a very jerky misfire. Regards Rog Last edited by Rapid Rog : Dec 7th, 2003 at 03:52 PM.

Dec 5th, 2003, 11:50 PM	#8 (permalink)
markjenn MINI2 Regular Join Date: Oct 2003 Local Time: 11:53 PM Posts: 260 Offline	If you're this PO'd, take their money and run. Life's too short. - Mark

Dec 5th, 2003, 11:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
LMB Toon Toon.. <div><a href= Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Up North Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 22,993 Offline	Quote: Originally Posted by Rapid Rog LMB, Mine jerks quite violently from 2,800 rpm onwards in second and third gear at anything between a quarter and two-thirds acceleration. There are so many terms for these different "characteristics" that I can't say for sure which one relates to mine. I simply class is a very jerky misfire. Regards Rog Hi Rog, Mines nothing like that. It stubbles occasionally in 1st for about a second. I'm just peeved cause there always seems to be something with these Minis's. If it's not one thing its another. I'm fed up of having to book my car into the dealership. This is the 3rd Mini I've own and I must have visited the dealership 15 -> 20+ times to get various faults fixed. And to be honest I'm sick of it. Global Moderator

Dec 7th, 2003, 05:19 PM	#10 (permalink)
scooperman_uk almost 59k Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reading / Berks / Uk Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 5,113 Offline	surely if enough people have this problem, why doesnt everyone document it and through the site here, send all the cases to the customer services department. power in weight of numbers. one car is easy to ignore, but a whole community of people that have the same problem surely that carries more clout... so how about a petition say "we refuse to accept the statement that yo-yo etc is a characteristic of the car etc..." action not words... thats the way to deal with this....

Dec 9th, 2003, 08:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	Scoop, I agree - bring it on!! There have been so many different entries in various posts in 'Faults and Fixes', why not have a single Cooper S thread with the following: Year 2003 Software Version 35 Engine Mods (if any) None Fault/s Misfire in 2nd & 3rd from 2,800 rpm Next!? Last edited by Rapid Rog : Dec 9th, 2003 at 08:47 PM.

Dec 10th, 2003, 10:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
animal MCS Hartge Style Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Big Smoke Local Time: 06:53 AM Posts: 73 Offline	Oh dear, I am getting very concerned after reading this thread. 2-3 days ago I noticed that my Hartge MCS was not running well at all, I think I have been lucky as my car has never suffered from the ' yo yo effect ' and to be honest up until now has been a great car to drive. Anyway my MCS has developed a terrible mis-fire when going through the gears between 4-5000 rpm, up unitil now it has never had this problem. So as you do I went to my local BMW service centre to book the car in for its 1st service and also to have them look at the mis-fire. The car was serviced ( big deal after all they only change the oil at the 1st service ! ) and I was contacted by BMW who told me that they could not fault the car and that there is no mis-fire and that I apparently had the so called MCS characteristic of the yo yo effect - i'm soory that is ******. So I went to the garage really ed off that they think they can tell me how my car should be driving, after all I drive it every day and up until now there has been no misfire and if the current problem is a characteristic then a) why hasn't it done this before b) what a piece if ** of a car if you have to put up with such a problem, I mean this is really bad. So next I took the head technician out with me for a test drive and at first the car seemed to be OK and I had to endure the MCS characteristic explaination yet again which by this time was beginning to really iritate me. However on the return journey to BMW garage the car began to mis-fire badly as it has been doing for the last week or so. The technician then had to admit defeat and swallow his pride, his words were " you definitly have a bad mis-fire there " - well i'm not being funny mate but I told you this all along and you just wanted to brush it off as a MCS common characteristic. My advice to you guys, especially Rapid Rog is if you can't succeed in getting your message across seek some legal help because this is an example of a large multinational company flexing its muscles and ignoring the people who count the most, its customers. No way should a new car be mis-firing I mean this is misleading and simply untrue. Anyway I will end on a happy note and maybe it may help you Rapid Rog as I am picking my MCS up today from the dealers and they have replaced the ignition coils and the long life spark plugs and apparentlty the problem is now resolved, we shall see and i'll let you all know when i get the car back home. Happy motoring, if thats possible ! Animal.

Dec 10th, 2003, 04:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	Animal, Thanks for your input. Hartge MCS - very nice! I'm surprised that the service centre didn't try the old "not covered under warranty" chestnut, or are the stories true about the Hartge keeping the warranty, but not the free servicing true? I agree with your "multinational abusing its power" comment and I am currently looking into the legal angle. For now it would be good to be able to gauge the extent of the problem. So other misfire/yo yo MCS owners please get in touch Cough and splutter Rog

Dec 11th, 2003, 10:40 AM	#14 (permalink)
animal MCS Hartge Style Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Big Smoke Local Time: 06:53 AM Posts: 73 Offline	Rog, Just to let you know ( and probably **** you off ) my nasty mis-fire has been sorted, the car is runing perfect. Try to get BMW to change your plugs and ignition coils, this has sorted the problem for me. Good luck

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Dec 11th, 2003, 09:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rapid Rog My other Mini's a Harley My Classifieds Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cippenham, Berkshire Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 32 Offline	The Legal Angle I've been seeking some legal guidance, see below: BUYING FROM A DEALER The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) is the statute which covers the sale whether it be a car, clothes or a toaster that you are buying. When buying from a dealer, the law says that a car must be: Of satisfactory quality As described, and Fit for the purpose Satisfactory quality - It must meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as acceptable and be free from defects, except those which are specifically brought to the attention of the customer. Fit For the Purpose - It must be reasonably fit for any normal purpose and this includes any purpose that you specify to the seller. If any of the above are breached then, in theory, you may have the right to reject the vehicle and get your money back if you are reasonably quick. Alternatively the dealer might offer to replace or repair the car. Once you have informed the dealer that you wish to reject the car, you must cease to use the vehicle. If the dealer, or finance company (if bought on hire purchase), is disputing the rejection, then it's up to you to prove your case. You will need to pay for an independent assessment of the car and sue for damages. If you do choose a repair, insist the dealer provides you with a hire car or pays any travelling expenses you incur while your new car is in the garage. If the car is new, it is likely that the claim will be too high to be fought using the Small Claims procedure so you may have to pay for legal representation. All this can be pretty daunting and expensive. You need to weigh up the pros and cons before rejecting a car. Would a repair do just as well? Selecting a dealer that offers a no quibbles exchange policy may help. When choosing a dealer, find a well established firm with a good reputation . Check if the company belongs to a reputable trade association that operates according to a code of practice supported by the Office of Fair Trading . EXAMPLE CASE I want to send back my new car and get my money back. Q - I picked up my new car on 31 October, however, it started stalling. I returned it to the dealer 2 days later and was advised there was a manufacturers fault. They have given me no definite date for repair and it has been in the garage for over two weeks now. I paid £6,000 cash and have £2,495 on credit. They have provided me with a hire car but I want to cancel the car and have my money back. Am I legally entitled to do so? C.D, London A - Your letter indicates that the dealer is in breach of contract because your car is not of satisfactory quality (section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act). This is assuming that the problem was not revealed when you took the car for a test drive before you bought it. As a consumer you are entitled first and foremost to have the car repaired within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you. As the garage has supplied you with a hire car, arguably, the offer of repair is not causing you significant inconvenience. If, however, the delay in getting the repairwork done persists, ask for a replacement car. If the garage has not got one then you would be entitled to an appropriate price reduction. The right to reject comes at the bottom of the pecking order of remedies available to a consumer.

Dec 12th, 2003, 02:29 PM	#16 (permalink)
northandy AWOL My Classifieds Join Date: Jan 2003 Local Time: 07:53 AM Posts: 14,508 Offline	You know this is the thing that annoys me so much about Mini, its a characteristic, what tosh !!... The say the rattle my gearbox makes (that can be heard above the radio inside the car) is a characteristic.... ******** !, i've never heard such tripe, i even got a letter from Mini Uk saying that "Mini prides itself on a higher quality product than its competitors, etc etc, warranty, blah blah".... lifes to short for this shoddy treatment !

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