[tnoy66]

With all the threads on here saying you must declare all mods on your car to the insurance, what if you bought 2nd hand and don't know about them

Example:
Mr Modifier fits a sports exhaust, installs a small pulley which looks very similar to standard and installs some new software.
Several months later he trades it for a Golf

The car is then passed round a few dealers and traders before being bought by Mr Innocent.

Mr Innocent insures the car and declares the exhaust.
Sometime during the next year he has a serious accident, but is alive.
As it is a serious crash the insurance company inspect his car further and find the pulley and software.
They say his insurance is null and void.

As such he is now classed as an uninsured driver through no fault of his own.

Would he be able to fight it legally, as it would be difficult to prove that he didn't actually fit the parts himself
Would there be any legal way of tracing it back to Mr Modifier and could he be held liable for the mods if he admitted fitting them
If Mr Modifier admitted fitting them, would that reinstate Mr Innocents insurance

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This is just something I am wondering especially with the amount of 'hidden' software that is available now, but possible to find by examining the ECU thoroughly.
This is not an actual situation.
Thoughts please.

[Paul]

No idea how that would work. Be interesting to find out!

[Hat]

i did wonder that when i sold my car with a MTH modified ECU

[tnoy66]

Ah, it's been moved, I was hoping it would stay in general for more views and opinions

Hat, watch out for someone knocking on your door in future

[Paul]

No, as it's an insurance question, this is where it belongs.

[tnoy66]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett

No, as it's an insurance question, this is where it belongs.

I know, though sometimes threads stay in the wrong place for a while
You're on the ball today

[dietcokeplease]

Quote: Originally Posted by tnoy66

With all the threads on here saying you must declare all mods on your car to the insurance, what if you bought 2nd hand and don't know about them

Example:
Mr Modifier fits a sports exhaust, installs a small pulley which looks very similar to standard and installs some new software.
Several months later he trades it for a Golf

The car is then passed round a few dealers and traders before being bought by Mr Innocent.

Mr Innocent insures the car and declares the exhaust.
Sometime during the next year he has a serious accident, but is alive.
As it is a serious crash the insurance company inspect his car further and find the pulley and software.
They say his insurance is null and void.

As such he is now classed as an uninsured driver through no fault of his own.

Would he be able to fight it legally, as it would be difficult to prove that he didn't actually fit the parts himself
Would there be any legal way of tracing it back to Mr Modifier and could he be held liable for the mods if he admitted fitting them
If Mr Modifier admitted fitting them, would that reinstate Mr Innocents insurance

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is just something I am wondering especially with the amount of 'hidden' software that is available now, but possible to find by examining the ECU thoroughly.
This is not an actual situation.
Thoughts please.

Interesting scenario Tony. Ultimately there is no black and white answer. There are so many external influences to be able to apportion liability and whether the insurance is legitmately void.

It's unfair for an insurance company and their policyholders to bear the risk of a undeclared or misdeclared modifications. But a similar precedent/situation does exist;

• If your car is stolen and whilst being driven by the thief it crashes into other vehicles and/or causes personal injury then the police can apply to the court to have the owner of the vehicles insurance pay out. This is normally a fairly complex situation
• Policyholders in effect already pay a subsidy in their premiums to cover uninsured drivers to the Motor Insurance Bureau

I would argue that the driver who is facing a voided policy does bear the greater responsibility. Why? Well there is always caveat emptor. You can't ask the insurance company to second guess any modifications. Most insurers do cover themselves by asking the right questions. The driver is ultimately in the position to satisfy him or herself that the vehicle is or isn't modified and pleading ignorance isn't normally a defence in most legal matters. For instance if you didn't know what a roadsign meant but contravened the instruction then ignorance isn't a defence. If the driver declared the non standard exhaust then that could be a pointer to investigate other aspects of the vehicle.

Then there is the question of whether the traders that passed the car around have any elemental liability to a third party for selling the vehicle. Possibly to a degree as you could argue that they are the professionals and should have greater knowledge of any mods. But most dealers rarely perform anything other than cursory inspections before retailing cars.

Does Mr Modifier have any liability? Possibly. If he sells the vehicle, most traders use a standard form which asks loads of questions: Have the vehicle been involved in a total loss accident? Has the vehicle been used as a hackney carriage or for hire or reward? It may ask if their are mods. If Mr Modifier has stayed silent on this point then a greater degree of liability may rest with him.

The insurance company will still be liable for any third party property damage and personal injury claim. But what if the insurers primary market is safe middle class, normal family hatchbacks, and no modifications? Then they could argue a greater case as they wouldn't normally insure modified vehicles (eSure as the prime example). An insurer who specialises in modified vehicles may find it harder to absolve liability.

I think ultimately the greater argument may involve the proportionality of the mod in the accident. If the mod allowed the vehicle to reach speeds or acceleration that the normal vehicle couldn't achieve then the driver would have greater liability and the voiding of his policy may be pertinent. What if the accident occurred at normal everyday speeds? Then you could argue that the mod, even though it was present, had no relevant bearing on the accident and that the policy should not be voided.

[Westie]

Or the insurer could declare that you were in breach of contract because you did not declare a material fact - irrespective of your knowledge! This is a total miefield - and there is no answer beyond declaring everything, asking questions, and hoping that you never need to make a claim. Your cover is only tested when you need to make a claim - and, inevitably, that's too late!

[tnoy66]

Thank you DC for your reply. I knew it wouldn't be a simple black and white case, as there are so many variables.
I wondered if someone knew of anyone that had been in a similar position and how it had turned out

I hope nobody here finds themselves in such a position, as I could imagine it turning into a long drawn out legal battle.

One of the reasons for posting this was this thread http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?t=101035
He/she bought a used MCS and it did have a reduced pulley. They could have driven round with it not knowing it was fitted, despite having the word 'Alta' clearly marked on it (it's only obvious if you know what you're looking for). I'm assuming they did declare it (after finding out it was fitted), but if not.....well you know where I'm going with it.

The question now should be, how can purchasers of used cars protect themselves from the possible scenario here

[tnoy66]

Quote: Originally Posted by westie

This is a total miefield - and there is no answer beyond declaring everything, asking questions, and hoping that you never need to make a claim.

If you don't know it's there how do you declare it

Quote: Originally Posted by westie

Your cover is only tested when you need to make a claim - and, inevitably, that's too late!

Very true.

[Westie]

I suppose the only way to demonstrate that you did everything possible to determine whether a used car has been modified is to get a signed declaration by the seller as to the modification state of the vehicle.

Minefield city!