The New E-10 gas .. problems..

[Aqualung]

just how long should we run the lower octane? all summer until the winter formulation comes back? Or will we have E-10 formulations next winter too?

[GadgetGav]

My guess is until the oil companies figure out how to make a non MTBE gas that burns the same way as MTBE did...

[Chimera]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aqualung

just how long should we run the lower octane? all summer until the winter formulation comes back? Or will we have E-10 formulations next winter too?

I'm just curious, are those of you who are running lower octanes (particularly 87) noticing any knocking/pinging? If not...why would anyone run >=91 octane in the S if it's not needed?

[GBMINI]

Running 89, not noticed any knocking - but shouldn't do because the engine itself is supposed to detect and avoid it by reducing power ...

So answer 1: lower octane fuel might result in reduced power, to prevent knocking;

Also answer 2: knocking is affected by air temperature, pressure, etc - a lower octane might not knock when the weather is cold, but might in hot weather (or is it the other way round?)

[Chimera]

Thanks Ian, I knew there must be a reason. I'm anxiously anticipating the arrival of my MCSa (should be about 5 weeks from now), and I'm trying to be as prepared as possible.

[snek]

Quote: Originally Posted by Chimera

I'm just curious, are those of you who are running lower octanes (particularly 87) noticing any knocking/pinging? If not...why would anyone run >=91 octane in the S if it's not needed?

MINIs have "knock sensors". Using lower octane fuel does not reduce compression, but adjusts the ignition timing which reduces power output, thereby preventing knocking. So, having to turn the key twice is worth having the full power output when I need it.

[GBMINI]

Well this morning, GBMINI#3 is back to a sluggish cold start and rough running for a few seconds - the 89 gas was only a short term fix

[Aqualung]

same here, even the 5 secs w/ the key. Maybe it's all the pollen I had to leave my car outside last night and it was covered this AM...I am at MOP right now, Chris suggested using an 89 octane fillup every 3rd or 4th tankful or so. Note that he doesn't recomm going to 87 octane

[jwardell]

For the record I do always need the second start...but I have never had a stall or near stall after it is started.

Chimera many of us have to run 93 because 91 is very hard to find around here.

Ian you are right, high temperatures will promote knocking.

Knock sensors are usually acoustic, so you will in fact get some knock before power is reduced, but they should be much more sensitive to your ears so it will only be a small amount and you won't even know it. Regardless, it will still be pre-detonating.
This may only happen at full throttle, on a hot day. Most people will be fine. Personally I don't want to bother with the lower octane. My pedal hits the carpet several times a day.

[JeffM]

Well, the guys at MoP have always done well by me, so I'll probably try Chris' suggestion to run the occasional tank of 89 through the car. I've always used 93 since I don't know anywhere in the central/eastern MA area of the US that carries 91. My stumbling/stalling seems a bit better since the DME flash, but it's not completely cured so I'm still hoping for a fix to come out at some point. It's annoying, but not enough for me to really complain about. Passengers notice, though, and give me funny looks.

[snek]

When I talked to Chris, he said "try Shell." When I answered I always used Shell, he said "Try drygas."

[GadgetGav]

Quote: Originally Posted by GBMINI

Well this morning, GBMINI#3 is back to a sluggish cold start and rough running for a few seconds - the 89 gas was only a short term fix

Funny... today was the first time mine started with the first turn and it seemed lees lumpy and prone to stalling as I back out of the garage..!
We must be on different summer / winter settings!

[Aqualung]

Quote: Originally Posted by snek

When I talked to Chris, he said "try Shell." When I answered I always used Shell, he said "Try drygas."

Yeah, Chris said Shell or Texaco....so I'll give that a try.

I was flashed to DME 21.2 today @ MOP.

[minidew]

I posted the following text elsewhere in this forum about a month ago -- one more addition is that the problem should get better over time, as the water evaporates/is re-absorbed in fuel tanks, and as the New England monsoon season ends -- and one more tip is to keep your tank at least half full to avoid excess condensation:

I've had problems with cold starts and subsequent driveability with my 2005 MCS for a couple of weeks, and my boyfriend is having the same problems with his. The car will start, but either stall or hesitate dramatically before revving up for the first couple of minutes it's running -- particularly troublesome when merging into oncoming traffic! According to Chris at MINI of Peabody (MA), this is due to changes in fuel additives (i.e., detergent) and/or amount of ethanol in fuel. Chris said it's a widespread problem that's affecting MINIs, BMWs, Land Rovers, and others. Supposedly, a software update is being developed to solve the problem -- but no one's really sure whether that's happening, or even if it is happening, whether it will work.

BMW released a service announcement that essentially suggests using only top tier fuel brands, i.e. Shell (http://www.toptiergas.com). MINI dealerships are now handing out this announcement.

BMW released another service announcement regarding the level of ethanol in fuel (scroll to the bottom of this page to read the full announcement: http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...143575&page=2).

From the service announcement:

Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Chris suggested alternating between 89 and 93 octane fuel -- first, since switching back and forth will help the car's computer to adapt to different types of fuel and levels of fuel consumption, and second, since higher octane fuel tends to also have higher levels of ethanol, which is part of the problem.

Chris also suggested adding Dry Gas to the fuel tank. It's apparently available at most gas stations (click here for more info).

Unfortunately, none of these suggestions will necessarily solve the problem -- but they are supposed to at least help.



Here's the BMW Service Announcement:

Subject-Alcohol Fuel Blends in BMW Vehicles

All with gasoline engines

Fuel blends containing a high percentage (above 10%) of alcohol, mainly ethanol, are becoming more commercially available. Customers inquire about the possibility of using alcohol fuels (e.g. E85) in BMW vehicles

INFORMATION

Fuels containing up to and including 10% of ethanol or other oxygenates with up to 2.8% oxygen by weight, that is, 15% MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) or 3% methanol plus an equivalent amount of co-solvent, will not void the applicable warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.
Although, usage of such alcohol fuel blends may result in drivability, starting, and stalling problems due to reduced volatility and lower energy content of the fuel. Those drivability problems may be especially evident under certain environmental conditions, such as: high or low ambient temperatures and high altitude.
Only specially adapted vehicles (FFV - Flexible Fuel Vehicles) can run on high alcohol fuel blends.
BMW, for the various technical and environmental reasons explained below, does not offer FFV models.

Usage of E85, or any other high alcohol content blend (e.g. E30) in BMW vehicles, will cause various drivability complaints (cold start problems, stalling, reduced performance, poor fuel economy, etc.), may cause excessive emissions, and may cause irreversible damage to engine, emission control and fuel delivery systems due to incompatibility of materials with alcohols.

General Notes Regarding E85 Fuel.

E85 fuel contains 85% (by volume) of ethanol and 15% of gasoline. Ethanol can be produced chemically from ethylene or biologically from grains, agricultural wastes, or any organic material containing starch or sugar. In the US, ethanol is mainly produced from corn and is classified as a renewable fuel.
Similar to gasoline, ethanol contains hydrogen and carbon; with additional oxygen molecules build into its chemical chain. This chemical structure makes ethanol***8217;s burning process slightly cleaner compared to the gasoline (lower tailpipe emissions).
On the other hand, due to lower carbon content, ethanol provides 27% less energy (for identical volume) then gasoline, resulting in the reduced fuel economy of E85 vehicles (approximately 22% higher consumption). Increased fuel consumption requires the appropriately enlarged fuel tank capacities (usually 30% increase), and the specific DME calibrations for the E85 lower Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (10 compared to 14.7 for gasoline engines).
E85 fuel volatility is typically lower then gasoline (RVP 6-10 psi, compared to 8-15 psi for gasoline). Lower fuel volatility will reduce vehicle evaporative emissions, but it may cause cold starting problems especially with lower ambient temperatures.

Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Certain materials, commonly used with gasoline are totally incompatible with alcohols. When these materials come in contact with ethanol, they may dissolve in the fuel, which may damage engine components and may result in poor vehicle drivability.
Some metals (e.g. zinc, brass, lead, aluminum) become degraded by long exposure to ethanol fuel blends. Also, some nonmetallic materials used in automotive industry such as: natural rubber, polyurethane, cork gasket material, leather, polyvinyl chloride (PVC), polyamides, methyl-methacrylate plastics, and certain thermo & thermoset plastics degrade when in contact with fuel ethanol.

In order to safely and effectively operate a motor vehicle running on E85, the vehicle must be compatible with alcohol use. Some manufacturers have developed vehicles called FFV (Flexible Fuel Vehicle) that can operate on any blend of ethanol and gasoline (from 0% ethanol and 100% gasoline, up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline). Ethanol FFVs are similar to gasoline vehicles, with main differences in materials used in fuel management and delivery systems, and DME control module calibrations. In some cases, also E85 vehicles require special lubricating oils.

Aftermarket conversions of gasoline-powered vehicles to ethanol-fueled vehicles, although possible, are not recommended due to internal materials and DME software incompatibility, as well, as the high costs of conversion.

WARRANTY INFORMATION

Components damage/malfunctions, or any drivability problems caused by use of fuels containing more then 10% ethanol (or other oxygenates with more then 2.8% oxygen by weight) will not be covered under BMW warranties with respect to defects in materials or workmanship.

[Aqualung]

Thanks for that detailed info. My car stalled again this AM, so the new DME didn't help. I'm just about 1/2, so I'll probably fill up w/ Shell 89 tonight or tomorrow as I will be close to cruising for MOT.