The New E-10 gas .. problems..

[GBMINI]

That reminds me ...
Yesterday was trash day. So I put the key in, turned to position 2 (ignition) then did the trash - left the ignition on at least a minute, loads of time for the claimed "run fuel pump" fix.
Car started worse than ever and immediately stalled - it's never done that before.

Conclusion, the "key for five seconds" fix is not relevant on GBMINI#3

[jwardell]

The pump only runs for a few seconds..you can usually hear it, and hear it stop, I assume once things are properly pressurized. Not sure what difference leaving it that way for so long makes. But this summer the fivesecond wait fix wasn't working either.

Things have been MUCH better with the new pump, aside from a few double-starts during the first rainfall, I haven't had to since, even through last week's rain and this weekend's high temps. We'll see if it degrades over time.

I really hope that if MINI doesn't, some aftermarket parts company one day makes a beefier fuel pump for the mini that can handle the ethanol.

[snek]

Boat owners grapple with new blended fuel
Ethanol additive posing a problem for some vessels
By Kim-Mai Cutler, Globe Correspondent | July 15, 2006

Alec McMullin bought a 22-foot-long boat named Ember four years ago, a classic vessel he likens to a `65 Mustang.

But the 50-year-old Manchester carpenter won't be able to take his boat out on the water this summer unless he shells out another $5,000 to $8,000 to replace its fiberglass fuel tank. McMullin is one of the unlucky boat owners across the state who must grapple with the consequences of switching to an ethanol mix of gasoline, promoted as a more environmentally friendly choice.

``It's aggravating," he said. ``I'm stuck with a boat that I can't use, and I can't sell."


Massachusetts has not banned the substance, but MTBE-blended gas has become virtually impossible to find as more suppliers switched to ethanol blends. New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Maine, and Vermont plan to ban MTBE by next year and switch to E-10.

Cars use the same gasoline as boats but haven't had any problems making the switch , the EPA says. Most vessels that have been well maintained probably won't have any issues with the new fuel. Boats 20 years or older are more prone to having problems with ethanol such as clogged fuel filters, which can cause engine trouble .
Owners of boats with fiberglass fuel tanks, such as McMullin, will face the most frustration; they have to replace their tanks because ethanol corrodes fiberglass. About 10,000 to 15,000 boats out of the 10 million to 15 million nationwide have fiberglass tanks, said Chuck Fort of BoatUS , an organization advocating for boat owners.

``The ethanol problem could be huge. It could be devastating to pleasure boaters. We've been warned about the consequences, and we've been monitoring it very closely," said Larry Russo , the owner of New England powerboat dealer Russo Marine.

The Massachusetts Marine Trades Association, which represents boat owners across the state, is encouraging boaters to take a number of precautions. First, ethanol mixes poorly with the old MTBE-supplemented gasoline so boaters must empty their tanks by either using all of the gas or pumping out the old fuel. Second , ethanol will clean out the dirt in tanks, clogging fuel filters, so boaters should carry spare filters.

BoatUS's Fort also warned that boaters should not leave gasoline unused in their tanks for months at a time. It could attract condensation with New England's dramatic temperature changes, and the water can mix with ethanol and enter the tank, making the new blend a potential problem during the winter when owners leave their boats untouched for months.

FL Tripp & Sons Inc. in Westport Point has serviced 50 or 60 boats with clogged filters and dirty carburetors.
``Just the sheer numbers that we have to contend with -- it's time consuming," said Harry Tripp Jr. , a service manager.

[jwardell]

Gary was telling me his boat was having a ton of trouble with it too.

Quote: Originally Posted by snek

Cars use the same gasoline as boats but haven't had any problems making the switch , the EPA says.

Someone needs to send a copy of this thread...and a testament from all the dealership service managers..to the EPA.

Perhaps they will change boat fueling stations to non-ethenol. Then at least we'll have an option. I imagine a lineup of minis at the town dock...

[GadgetGav]

Quote: Originally Posted by jwardell

Someone needs to send a copy of this thread...and a testament from all the dealership service managers..to the EPA.

Trouble is, according to MINI USA there is no problem as long as you use Top Tier (tm) gas...

[GBMINI]

That's not what MINI USA said, Gavin!
... usage of such fuel blends may result in drivability, starting and stalling problems ...

... the DME is not able to fully adapt to "non-conforming fuel volatility" ...

Interestingly, that last one has been updated with a possible software update procedure - of course, it probably won't do any good!

[GadgetGav]

I don't know who you need to know to get access to the real story like that Ian, but this is the only official notification MINI USA / MINI Peabody have sent me:
"Dear Gavin,

The recent addition of ethanol to gasoline in the US has sparked a lot of discussion among our customers. Since these issues are of common interest to many of our customers, MINI of Peabody wanted to take a moment to offer some suggestions for your Cooper S.

What Is The Current Use Of Ethanol?
As you know, Ethanol is a fuel additive that, in the US, is usually made from corn. When burned, ethanol releases much less tailpipe emissions than gasoline, making it better for the environment. Because of that, ethanol is now being mixed with gasoline for auto fuel. This mixture can be from 10% all the way up to 85% (E85).

Will Using Fuel Mixed With Ethanol Harm My Vehicle?
Using a fuel that contains up to 10% ethanol will not harm your vehicle. However, there are a couple of things to be considered. First, under some conditions (usually low temperatures) ethanol separates from the gasoline-alcohol mixture and absorbs water. The ethanol absorbed water is heavier than gasoline or ethanol and settles at the bottom of the fuel tank. When introduced into the combustion process, this leads to an extremely lean fuel mixture and can result in misfires, rough idles, and cold starting problems.

Secondly, some materials commonly used with gasoline are not compatible with ethanol. When these materials come in contact with ethanol, they may dissolve in the fuel, which may result in poor drivability, or worse engine damage.

Please remember that fuels that contain more than 10% ethanol such as E85 are intended for specially prepared vehicles (flex-fuel vehicles). These fuels must never be used in MINI vehicles.

Will Using Ethanol Void My Warranty?
Using fuel that contains up to and including 10% ethanol will not harm your vehicle or void the applicable warranty with respect to defects in materials or workmanship. However, MINI does not cover damage caused by fuel containing more than 10% ethanol or by contaminated fuel.

What Can I Do To Protect My Vehicle?
There are a couple of important things you can do to protect the investment you've made in your MINI.

1. Purchase high quality fuel. Make sure that your fuel has a minimum octane rating of AKI 91 and the percentage of ethanol is 10% or less.

2. Purchase your fuel from a reputable source. MINI and several other auto manufacturers have worked with gasoline retailers to approve "TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline". These fuels have increased levels of detergent to help keep engines cleaner and reduce deposits-related concerns.

You can find out more about TOP TIER Fuels and find a retailer at www.toptiergas.com.

I hope this information can be of valuable use.

Sincerely,
Gary King
Service Manager
MINI of Peabody"

According to them, it's only low temperatures and water in the gas that could cause misfires, rough idle and cold starting problems. That wouldn't explain why my MINI filled with fresh Top Tier (tm) gas will never start first time in 80+ degree weather.

This is a scam as your trade service info shows. This is a bigger problem than they admit to the public and it's being driven by the desire to get rid of corn by product, not because it's good for the car or the environment.

[GBMINI]

Gavin,
Everyone has access to that trade info - it's public knowledge (just not very public!)

And I also received that letter but as you know, it's carefully written to say almost nothing - it says ethanol+water can cause bad running but it doesn't also say that ethanol alone can ... and it suggests ways to "protect your vehicle" which, while written on the same page as the ethanol stuff, is actually nothing to do with it!

[jwardell]

Remember Top Tier is a measurement of cleaning additives, it has nothing to do with corrosiveness which is the issue here.

Gav, that letter signed by gary is really a copy from a statement issued from the bmw peabdoy service manager, which I received in print in their latest newsletter (not sure why I suddenly got a bmw peabody snail mail....more HC feel!). No doubt the "new management" forced gary to use that, and it doesn't walk over MINI. Talk to him personally and you'll get the real story.

From my experience, the cold/wet weather + ethanol has already done its damage even if the water is no longer present in the gas; your only way to make your problems go away may be to replace your fuel pump and filter.

[snek]

And then there are those of us who got neither snail-mail or e-mail. As far as I can tell, that simply means "your problem is imagined." Just like the first gear stumble was...

[GadgetGav]

I know the letter from Gary was a MINI USA text, the point I was making was that it's the only public, official word on the subject and it basically says that other than rare circumstances, there's not a problem.
I also know that the service bulletin info is available on the web, but it's not written for public consumption and it's not really intended to be used by the public - especially those less fanatical about their cars than the population of these boards.

What I was trying to say is that there is seemingly quite a gap between what is admitted in public, what is admitted to the trade and what is really happening in the service bays. Basically - the whole thing stinks.

[GBMINI]

Quote: Originally Posted by GadgetGav

What I was trying to say is that there is seemingly quite a gap between what is admitted in public, what is admitted to the trade and what is really happening

I hope you don't think that's a MINI only trait - or BMW only; or car only ... the whole world behaves like that if they can get away with it!

[GadgetGav]

No, but this is a MINI forum...

[yellowmininy]

I started having problems yesterday while driving to work, and the same this morning- trying to accelerate when the car is cold but it seems as though there's no fuel getting through and I can barely get 20 mph, then a few seconds later the acceleration is normal. I haven't had water in the gas line before in a car, but it makes me wonder if that's what it is. And I use only 'top tier' gas...

[holdenontoit]

this sounds more like the fuel pump acting up, a la Josh at MoT. The e-10 fuel woes are more at start up -having to start the car twice , and then stumbling at the first launch , lasting no more than 30 seconds, followed by normal performance for the rest of the day.