The New E-10 gas .. problems..

[MetalMiniMayhem]

I know several people that "coincidentally" are having issues since the new change-over to the E-10 (10% ethanol blend gas).

If you are in an area where the new E-10 is being used and your car has been running "differently" please post the year and model (ie: 2005 MCS), any mods, a quick synopsis of the symptoms and what octane gas you are running. Also any tricks or tips that you have tried and their outcome.

Thanks


I'm running a:

2005 MCS
15% Alta s/c pulley
Borla Racing exhaust
Cold Air Intake (Weapon-R)

symptoms: (91 octane) When the car is first started, the idle is way low, to the point that it sounds like it wants to stall. If I give it some gas, it acts like it wants to go into "limp mode". To date, I have had NO warning lights. Once I am driving, the car was running poorly.

tips/tricks outcome: per conversation with someone from ASK MINI, I went from 91 oct. to 89 oct., cold starts still the same issues, ran a bit smoother but not 100% once I got going.

again per ASK MINI, I went down to 87 oct., cold starts: same, once I get going the car is running great!

[GBMINI]

GBMINI#3 exactly matches "When the car is first started, the idle is way low, to the point that it sounds like it wants to stall" - but I don't try to give it any gas, I just wait for it to sort itself out which takes a couple of seconds.
Once that few seconds is done with, I have no issues all day.

This issue started immediately the next day following my last fill-up of Sunoco 91; I'll have to check next time I'm at that station, but presumably it's a new formulation (Derek, I filled at the gas station about a mile south of MoP).

[GadgetGav]

2002 MCS
Webb 15% pulley
Webb HDI
JCW exhaust

Won't stay running on first start from cold. Very poor idle when it does start, wants to stall backing out of garage. Seems to run rich - smell of fuel and more smoke than before from exhaust when cold.

Have been running Shell V Power, tried Shell 89, tried STP gas additive. All had no effect. Will try 87 from somewhere tomorrow when I need to fill up.

Come back MTBE, all is forgiven.

[snek]

03 MCS
Alta 15% pulley
Rogue CAI
Borla Street exhaust
MTH

Same as the others. Shell V-power 93 was great until recently. 89 has no effect on cold start. Heet additive seems to make the lumpy idle pass sooner and the car run stronger.

[RenaultF1]

I have a question. How would you know that E-10 is being used? Is there something on the pump that indicates it...like the MTBE sticker?

I need to fill up tonight or tomorrow and always use V-Power...I'll report back when I do.

[GadgetGav]

Yes, it says something about how this gasoline may contain up to 10% ethanol. Just like the stickers that used to say contains MTBE. I think the wording is 'may contain up to' which is odd because I'm sure they put 10% in all of it...

[snid]

If you're doing web searches for information, also search for "gasohol". When the roll-out started in the midwest (many years ago), there were also 5% and 7% blends - hence the "up to 10%" sticker.

[jwardell]

"Me Too" Often I neeed to start twice on a cold start, the engine won't crank past 800, you must turn off then the second start is fine, then any idling will sound like an idling harley until the engine gets up to temperature.

The problem is open-loop vs closed-loop mode. Most car egnine computers rely on the precise data of the oxygen sensors. However, oxygen sensors only work at high temperature ranges; that is, once the engine has reached normal operating temperature. Until that temperature is reached and the engine is warmed up, the engine controller runs the engine in open-loop mode. It's more like blindly mixing chemicals; x amoung of this + y amount of that and you should get z, but until the engine is warmed up can you remove the blindfold and instead ajust the amounts by monitoring the output. So when you change what the computer is expecting in ingredient x, it doesn't realize it and the output changes without it knowing. The only thing it does know is that the engine has slowed down to near-stall so it quickly overdoeses on x. The stumbling/harleying is this procedure repeating itself. A software fix could be for example extending that overdose period to something not so quick, or running the engine at 1250 rpm instead of trying to idle at 1000. Of course, those waste gas and produce more unmonitored emissions; the computer can't monitor emissions until all of those oxygen sensors are at operating temperature. And of course the government makes sure the emissions take precidence.

[MetalMiniMayhem]

yeah, the mechanic I was talking to who does drag racing on the side said exactly that about temperature, etc. he said the 10% burns significantly cooler and thus all the problems.. he said we would need temperature sensors (exhaust and cooling/coolant?), that were able to close the loop at a colder temperature..

on a side note, my car runs GREAT once it is up to temp on the lower octane gas.. no knocking, really smooth power curve (or so it feels, couldn't really back that up without dyno numbers) and it seems to actually run LESS rich (which has been a problem since I got the car)..

Thanks guys.. I'm going to keep trying MINI USA and see if they plan on putting out some sort of recall notice or service alert, whatever.. as soon as I get a solid answer form them, I'll let ya know..

[GBMINI]

If the issue is, as Derek & Josh suggest, due to has temperature & sensor function, then it's clear that no software change could do much to resolve it except having a "different guess" as to what might work ... different design sensors, etc would seem to be the only way, and I bet such things are more costly which is why they aren't there.

I don't see any way to get new sensors into our MINIs - but I hope that the new Peugeot engine has better sensors and doesn't suffer from the same issue; you'd hope MINI would have learned something from the last five years of USA gas issues

[MetalMiniMayhem]

no kidding..! Peugeot motors?.. sweet.. (time to think abour re-financing. , but only if they bring back the "liquid black")

[MetalMiniMayhem]

Consumer Report's said it best in their review of the MINI.. they said the "over-all consesus was" , "My MINI is my favortie car ever... when it's not in the shop"..

well, it was something to that effect, anyways..

[snid]

And now you people understand how my car behaves every morning in the winter.

[GBMINI]

Did your car start any better today - GBMINI#3 started perfectly normally this morning; I wonder if the damp air improves its starting ...

[jwardell]

Bad start for me this morning. I just filled up last night so we'll see if it goes away this afternoon once the new gas works its way in. It usually runs better on the gas from this place.