A Complete And Utter Mini Miss Adventure

[PERCY]

This is a brief story of one mans desire to own a car that had the potential to be so much but ended up being so little not once but twice:
I first saw the MINI at the Birmingham motor show and instantly fell in love with it. From that day I knew I just had to have one, so I placed an order for a pure silver MINI Cooper.
I waited seven months for delivery and picked the car up from the dealer in January 02. From that point my MINI adventure turned sour. Within weeks the car exhibited signs of the dreaded pull to the left, the Panther leather seats started to creak, the door had to be resprayed, and the fuel gauge was replaced. In an attempt to fix the seat, a new plastic sill had to be installed due to damage caused by the seat removal. I covered just 2000 miles in six months as the pull to the left was so extreme that it was tiresome to drive.
Fortuantely all the faults were rectified but I had lost all confidence in this particular MINI Cooper and felt I had no option but to sell.
The MINI Cooper S had just arrived in the showrooms and unfortunately my heart ruled my head. After taking the car for a test drive and being assured by the salesman that the earlier problems with the MINI had been resolved, I placed an order taking delivery in October last year. The car was absolutely stunning and I felt I really could start to enjoy the experience.
However, the seats started to creak, the Lapis blue leather began to bubble, the engine coolant turned brown, a scratch on the door had to be repaired and once again the car started to pull to the left. I took the car back to the dealer and expressed my utter dismay that after almost two years of being in production, some of the faults that were apparent on the original MINI Cooper were still apparent on the MINI Cooper S. I was prepared to forgive all provided the dealer could resolve the pull to the left.
The car was put onto the KDS and the rear wheels were found to be out of alignment. Great I thought, problem solved. NO - the problem just got worse. I let the chief technician drive the car, his initial response being "it's the direct steering and it's just following the camber of the road". "I don't think so" I replied. I told him that I had previously owned a Cooper that had a suspension modification kit fitted to resolve this exact same problem and I knew how that steered on the same roads and that was straight!!!
The chief technicians response, after agreeing that there was a problem was "all I can do is check the tire pressures and swap the wheels front to back, to be honest i don't think that will resolve it"
An appointment was then made with an engineer from BMW(GB). This time we compared the steering of my MINI Cooper S with a MINI Cooper, both having the same wheels and tyres - 17" S spokes and Dunlops. Both cars were driven over the same roads and to my delight the engineer agreed that there was a problem with the steering on the Cooper S. Unfortunately, I was then informed that as I was the only individual that had identified the problem there was nothing he could do until more people identified the steering to be an issue.
I was offered a brand new MINI Cooper which I obviously rejected without hesitation and had no option but to sell the car back to the dealer with a loss of £1200.
I will not be returning to the BMW brand altough I have to say the after sales service is impecable.
The MINI promised so much to me personally, that I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt - it had everything I wanted in a car except quality, something I thought I was guaranteed buying into a German product.
I would like to say thanks to the MINI2 site, for providing an invaluable source of information over the last two years and a forum on which to discuss important ownership issues, alass my MINI adventure is over but rest assured I will be keeping a watchfull eye on the Faults and Fixes forum!!!

[swamos]

I'm sorry, mate

[MiNiGuY]

I understand your disappointment.

It seems that there have been a dozen or so problems with this car that have never gone away.

The car is still fairly 'new' and is recieving small design changes pretty much week on week, even to this day.
However for the more obvious problems - the problems that customers notice, BMW do seem to be dragging their heels.

With the seats, BMW had big rows with the makers (johnsons) from the very beginning, but an inside source (from johnsons) told me that, basically, BMW are getting what they pay for and that the seats are pretty outstanding when taking into consideration the budget that they (johnsons) are given to produce them.
Incidentally, i'm also told that Johnsons won the original rows.

Anyway, problems in general:-

There are (what I would call) local and non local problems.

The non local problems are things like the seats that I just mentioned, and resolving issues like this can take time albeit at the customers expense.

Then there are the local problems - a run of cars where a certain batch of parts doesn't fit correctly, or needs to be 'reworked' in order to fit correctly. This can sometimes lead to bad (though unintended) quality or sometimes even side effects such as squeeks or rattles when the car is driven- something not evident in the original short road test.
After a week of production the 'dodgy' batch is used and the new batch is ok again, but the 3000 or so people who have the cars built that week suddenly realise the problem and notice (in forums like this) that others expierience the same.



It goes without saying that safety critical problems are recognised much sooner due to the more stringent control in those areas, and that I've only ever witnessed the very best efforts from BMW in that respect, and also witnessed very expensive recalls of cars before they even got near a dealer, just because of a doubt.
It would be nice to believe it was all done out of love for the customer but hey, business is business I suppose!!

MiNiGuY

[mr.bill]

MiNiGuY, you echo what I have said for a long time and it can best be summed up with the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish." BMW tried to turn the MINI into a "personal luxury vehicle" and loaded it with an overly complex electrical system and "features" nobody really needs. Self sealing side windows, remote central locking, self-leveling headlights, electrically adjusted side mirrors and the like are expensive, so they had the choice of either increasing the purchase price of the car into Bimmer territory, or lowering the quality elsewhere to make up for it. They opted for lower quality. That would explain the complaints about the seats, the painted plastic surfaces that scratch easily, the cracking windshields, etc.

Personally, I would rather have crank windows and manual door locks if it meant Recaro-quality seats. I'll wager if you took a poll here among MINI owners, given the choice, most would rather have a more basic car with better quality. But the die is cast now and it is probably too late to turn back.

[Rob.]

Thanks for that MiniGuy, hope your new job is going well

As for you Mr. Bill, I have said this before but will say it again. You do not own a MINI and do not seem likely to ever own a MINI. You have some valid points about certain issues but they are based on second hand information. How are you an expert? You have never owned one of these cars. The Mini has problems, but it does not seem to have more problems than any other production vehicle. Maybe you just read more about the Mini than any other car. Your opinion would carry more weight if you had actually owned a mini and experienced things first hand.

Answer me this, does any car have enough 'quality' for you to risk purchasing one?

Research any model of car on the internet and you will find numerous faults on each model. It seems to me that your posts only ever describe how poor the mini is and how bad the quality is.

[supersport]

Quote:

Originally posted by mr.bill
MiNiGuY, you echo what I have said for a long time and it can best be summed up with the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish." BMW tried to turn the MINI into a "personal luxury vehicle" and loaded it with an overly complex electrical system and "features" nobody really needs. Self sealing side windows, remote central locking, self-leveling headlights, electrically adjusted side mirrors and the like are expensive, so they had the choice of either increasing the purchase price of the car into Bimmer territory, or lowering the quality elsewhere to make up for it. They opted for lower quality. That would explain the complaints about the seats, the painted plastic surfaces that scratch easily, the cracking windshields, etc.

Personally, I would rather have crank windows and manual door locks if it meant Recaro-quality seats. I'll wager if you took a poll here among MINI owners, given the choice, most would rather have a more basic car with better quality. But the die is cast now and it is probably too late to turn back.

I'm with you mr.bill.....
I'd kill for a BASIC Mini. Isn't it just a matter of time before the window fails, and you can't open the door? Then what? The poor car is over-engineered (and under developed).

Silver Black's statement that mr.bill is in no position to comment is mean-spirited and makes no sense; this forum is for people who are interested in the car -- owners or not.

If it weren't for cracking windscreens and reports of flawed bits -- and those stupid auto side windows, I'd own one now. As it is, I'm unimpressed and waiting -- but I'm also in love -- I hope to not be heartbroken. There is nothing else to buy!

[mr.bill]

Silver and Black, before I spend my hard-earned money on anything, I do research. When I questioned some of the people at the MINI dealership, I was greeted with a "deer in the headlights" look. It was quite apparent that I knew far more about the car than they did, and they are trying to sell the damn thing. The problems with the MINI are inherent in the design. It is doomed to fall apart due to electrical and mechanical problems because they cut corners and tried to make it into something it was never intended to be. Maybe those buyers who are part of the "throw away society" don't mind, but I prefer to buy things that last. For the same money, I could go buy a Honda, Nissan or Toyota and get superb reliability and build quality. But they all look like "a polished turd," and don't excite me. The Nissan 350Z and Infiniti G35 Sport Coupe look great, but are more expensive. I, like everyone else here, had hopes of a MINI with "BMW build quality." Clearly, that isn't the case.

[KenL]

Quote:

Originally posted by mr.bill
It is doomed to fall apart due to electrical and mechanical problems because they cut corners and tried to make it into something it was never intended to be.

Sorry but I think you are talking rubbish.

Where have the corners been cut?

How are MINI (or BMW as MINI's owners) trying to make the MINI into something it was never intended to be? Since the beginning of the development of the new MINI it was always going to be a premium small car.

Why do you spend your time in here if you have no intent on buying a MINI? May I ask if you perform a similar service in other auto manufacturer related sites?

BTW Honda, Nissan & Toyota cars are not perfect either you know.

[GordonD]

I'm kind of torn on this thread. Obviously PERCY had a miserable experience and I'm pretty sure i would have been completely p!ssed at the dealer/BMW and anyone I could think of.

This weekend we had a meet of 20 owners and everyone is thoroughly entranced with the car and all that it represents so clearly his experience is not mirrored here.

maybe we benefitted in North America from having to wait a little longer for deivery and they had sorted out some stuff but bad things do happen to cars - even new expensive ones. i was a a track day with my MCS last Fall and a M3 with <10,000 kms on the motor threw a rod and dumped the whole load of oil on the track. Luckly it was an experienced driver on a fast but wide part of the track. I got a newsletter from the school last week and it had a little write up on the event and mentioned that further research showed that 30% of new M3s have catastrophic failures - now that's cause for major ire.

I think BMW should offer a club car a la BMW 2002 with no electronics (except maybe ABS?) manual windows etc but I suspect they would have a hard job selling then in NA as people are pretty used to even econoboxes with a/c power windows etc etc. but you never know. Hard core racers can, and will, strip out the junk they don't need but obviously it's a pain to pay for stuff just to take it out.

Maybe the answer is to buy a used one where the experience of the owner is well documented and that way you know what you are getting into.

[MiNiGuY]

'Build quality' has been long misunderstood.
It's not the so much issues with build quality. It's more of an issue of the quality of that which is actually being built.
I disagree with the notion that BMW cut corners in order to build a car which was more than it was intended to be.
I would say,however, that I agree to an extent that costs have inevitably been curtailed in areas, in order to produce the car that was meant to be.

Mr Bill is hovering over valid territory, although to what extent is arguable based on a persons own standpoint.

People don't want to hear about cut corners but the truth is that all motor manufacturers do it. However, to cut a corner doesn't automatically mean that quality or reliability is lost.
For instance, people with original minis actually own more car than people with current minis of the same type.
october last year the radiator cowling was thrown out of the window,the exhaust manifold heat shield was thrown out of the window, cheaper screws were replacing the ones being used etc,etc.
BUT, at the end of the day, the car was still exactly the same car to the untrained eye as one produced months earlier.
It's known as 'cost cutting' and is basically an excersise in producing the same product (to all intents and purposes) for less money.
The basic agreed design goes into production, and then of course it becomes a matter of what you can take away before the wheels fall off without affecting the 'quality'.

As for longevity of the mini??

I predict missing wheel arch spats, problems with rust in unimportant areas,probably around the wheel arches,in the front wings and definitly around the lower area of the bonnet grilles and lower part of the headlight cutouts. Fuel filler area will probably fall foul of rust and tailgate hinge area seems vulnerable also.
I predict a high amount of fuel filler flaps packing up, maybe even early on, especially on the S.
Probably find bonnet and tailgate gas struts falling off all over the place also due to the rust prone clips.
Screen finishers,quarter light finishers,cantrails,boot finishers etc etc will be missing all over the place as the plastic clips harden,brittle up and break and I doubt that the chrome headlight surrounds will look so cool in a few years either (very thin,prone to peeling and it's possible to leave permanent gouge marks using just your finger nail), but I reckon that all this aside, the fundimental base design is no less a laster than any other small car of this time.
I see plenty of youngsters having a second hand mini as their first car, but I just reckon the mini is gonna look damn tatty in its later life unless it is given special loving all through it!!

[KenL]

Quote:

Originally posted by MiNiGuY
'Build quality' has been long misunderstood.
It's not the so much issues with build quality. It's more of an issue of the quality of that which is actually being built.
I disagree with the notion that BMW cut corners in order to build a car which was more than it was intended to be.
I would say,however, that I agree to an extent that costs have inevitably been curtailed in areas, in order to produce the car that was meant to be.

Mr Bill is hovering over valid territory, although to what extent is arguable based on a persons own standpoint.

People don't want to hear about cut corners but the truth is that all motor manufacturers do it. However, to cut a corner doesn't automatically mean that quality or reliability is lost.
For instance, people with original minis actually own more car than people with current minis of the same type.
october last year the radiator cowling was thrown out of the window,the exhaust manifold heat shield was thrown out of the window, cheaper screws were replacing the ones being used etc,etc.
BUT, at the end of the day, the car was still exactly the same car to the untrained eye as one produced months earlier.
It's known as 'cost cutting' and is basically an excersise in producing the same product (to all intents and purposes) for less money.
The basic agreed design goes into production, and then of course it becomes a matter of what you can take away before the wheels fall off without affecting the 'quality'.

As for longevity of the mini??

I predict missing wheel arch spats, problems with rust in unimportant areas,probably around the wheel arches,in the front wings and definitly around the lower area of the bonnet grilles and lower part of the headlight cutouts. Fuel filler area will probably fall foul of rust and tailgate hinge area seems vulnerable also.
I predict a high amount of fuel filler flaps packing up, maybe even early on, especially on the S.
Probably find bonnet and tailgate gas struts falling off all over the place also due to the rust prone clips.
Screen finishers,quarter light finishers,cantrails,boot finishers etc etc will be missing all over the place as the plastic clips harden,brittle up and break and I doubt that the chrome headlight surrounds will look so cool in a few years either (very thin,prone to peeling and it's possible to leave permanent gouge marks using just your finger nail), but I reckon that all this aside, the fundimental base design is no less a laster than any other small car of this time.
I see plenty of youngsters having a second hand mini as their first car, but I just reckon the mini is gonna look damn tatty in its later life unless it is given special loving all through it!!

All of this information from an ex-employee is rather worrying but is anything you say more likely to occur on the MINI than any other car available?

If you neglect any car it will look tatty in a few years and the areas you point out for possible rust are exactly the areas that rust appears first on every other car on the road.

MINI apparantly read this forum so I wonder what they make of your comments???

[MiNiGuY]

Quote:

Originally posted by KenL
All of this information from an ex-employee is rather worrying but is anything you say more likely to occur on the MINI than any other car available?

If you neglect any car it will look tatty in a few years and the areas you point out for possible rust are exactly the areas that rust appears first on every other car on the road.

MINI apparantly read this forum so I wonder what they make of your comments???

It's merely my personal speculation and opinion.

None of it is anything I've been told officially that's for sure.

All cars fall apart eventually unless they are specifically cared for with an eye to the future.

I'm just more able to recognise potential weak spots on an ageing mini because of the first hand expierience I have had with it.

Ok, it's unlikely that every spat and finisher will fall off of every car and the tailgate hinges probably are less likely to get corroded because they are shielded for the most part.
I expect It'll be a mix from car to car, but I do expect it.
As for the other areas I mentioned, well I'm going to stand by those comments firmly.

[Red Cooper]

Thanks MiNiGuY for your comments. As always they're very much appreciated.

Cheers

RC

[AidenL]

Quote:

Originally posted by Red Cooper
Thanks MiNiGuY for your comments. As always they're very much appreciated.

Cheers

RC

Yep, good to see you back again !!

[Rob.]

Mr. Bill and supersport. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't mean it to offend. Neither of you own a Mini, do you?
I was concerned about all the quality issues mentioned on this site before i made my purchase. I also agree with the point about knowing more than the sales staff do. Well, more than they will admit to knowing about. What dealer is going to agree with you about all the faults you have read on the internet. Remember they are there to sell cars.
I do not know what proportion of the minis have any of the reported faults, which is worrying to any propective buyer. They do not know how likely they are to receive a car with problems either major or minor.
All the people I have met with new minis do not talk about the faults with their car, if there are any. What I am trying to say is, if you do not buy a mini until there are no reported faults any more you will wait forever.
All the motoring magazines make a big point of how good the build quality is. Now this might just be partly perceived build quality because of the BMW connection, but overall it must be that from their point of view after testing many cars the mini has good build quality. And what was said about japanese cars. Yes they have a reputation for good build quality but that doesn't mean japanese cars do not have faults and problems. As I said before, research any car on the internet and you will always find alot more complaints about poor quality / problems than how good a car is.

So go on, take the plunge and buy a mini. I think you will be happy with your purchase. And if for any reason you are not happy with it, you will be able to sell it on for the full purchase price anyway. Then you will be able to comment about your opinion based on actually owning the car.