Car Dies due to catastrphic system failure

[phoggberg]

Anyone got a solution for this one....

Brand new MINI Cooper Convertible, one week since delivery, 330 miles. Driving home got off the freeway, to pick up my wife in Downtown area the Alternator Warning Light comes on. Get the wife, and attempt to make it to dealership so they can look see in evening rush traffic during a snow storm. I shut down everything not necessary but Xenon Headlights and main heater.

We make it half way to dealership, when in addition to Alternator I get the following indicators within about one minute elapse time, they pop on one at a time. Traction control, ABS, Airbag (this really worries me as I may have a premature deployment) and then the car slows to a maximum speed of 20 MPH and the CVT runs kinda jerky. Find a place to pull over, and call roadside assistance. About 10 Minutes later engine dies, reading light hardly glows. About 40 Minutes later (all electrical is off during the interval) I open the door go out an reposition the triangle, and the interior lights are bright, Try to start the car (as we are getting pretty cold ) no joy.

Wrecker finally shows, almost 2 hours after call placed, and takes car to MINI Service.
Next day Techs charge the battery (must not have completely died as all my radio stations in memory were still set) run diagnostics, nor problems found. Checked all connections to battery -- they are fine. Ran diagnostics a second time no problems found all voltages and currents are nominal.

Any suggestions?

[ALD0]

No suggestions but hope you get it sorted whatever it is

[Malin Dixon]

As I understand it, the alternator warning light comes on when the battery voltage is low when the engine is running. I think that there has been some trouble with the light coming on when the electrics are heavily loaded but working. I've seen that in my Rover 75.

The airbag light will indicate no deployment possible rather than unwanted deployment.

Did you have the aircon on? If so, you were running the aircon clutch and the cooling fan all the time.

It sounds like your alternator wasn't keeping up. As the battery went flat, you got all the warning lights. I would want to check that the alternator is working because there is no way that a battery should go flat while driving.

http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?f..._obc_functions
That shows you how to find the battery voltage. If you start the car, the voltage should be in the range 13.5 - 14.5 when the engine is above 2000 rpm, even with a heavy electrical load. If turning on the aircon, screen heaters and lights pulls the voltage down to less than 13V and 2000 rpm doesn't bring it back up, the alternator isn't producing full power and you should get it fixed.

It could be a stuck alternator brush or a failed diode or two. Either will cause the alternator to give less power but still work fine for small loads. Faults like that might fool the mechanics into thinking that the alternator is OK. They may not understand that alternators can be sick, and not just "dead" or "perfect".

I don't think it is a slipping belt, because you can usually hear that scream.

[MiNiGuY]

As long as you get no more problems there should be nothing to worry about.
You mention that the dealer ran a diagnostic, which obviously returned an 'ok'. The mini cpu like all modern cars is basically a computer. When the diagnostic was run, the cpu on your car was quite probably, in fact quite obviously corrupted. Why this was could be various reasons, but nothing you should worry about. What happens is, the diagnostic machine compares it's built in 'template' for the cpu of your car and then checks that your cars cpu matches. If there is a difference it simply attempts a re-program of your cars cpu. If the re-program is succesful the dealer will simply get an 'ok' message returned from the machine so he simply scratches his head and says your car is ok,and, as the diagnostic worked, the car is actually now ok.
A diagnostic will highlight a problem, but only after its attempted a correction and failed, which in your cars case didn't happen so this explains why you mention 'no problems found'.
As for the airbag warnings, don't worry. Yes they are electronically monitored but they only respond from physical impact sensors (made by Bosch) situated in the front mfe and either side of the car, hidden behind the inner lower A post finishers with an additional rollover sensor situated just behind, and under the hand brake console, so you shouldn't worry about an uninvited balloon fest in your car.

I'll mention here as general info for interested folk that the mini's cpu is made by siemens and is a very nice piece of kit. It holds immense amounts of information (cached) and in the unfortunate event of an accident it can be interrogated to give information it recieved from all sensory equipment for some time before the accident, including among others your rpms at change, your braking, your speed, and other information, so boy racers beware!!. Obviously these are not implementations designed to 'nanny state' or 'big brother' the way you use your own vehicle, it's just that the cpu CAN be interrogated if needs be. Any available information certainly wouldn't be used against you by dealers in any warranty claim and actually, as far as I know, dealer diagnostic machines dont give any options on that information anyway because it's factory accessed information to check that the car is running and performing correctly before shipment. Anyway, new MINI was hardly designed as a shopping trolley was it?!!

One last thing on the cpu is it is over sensitive to having its plug pulled off by inquisitive owners if the battery is connected. If you have to pull it off, diconnect the battery and wait at least 20 minutes. I've probably posted before about why you have to wait so long, so I'm not going into it again!!. Another thing the cpu hates - for you info sponges - is being reprogrammed with the wrong 'template'. it destroys it completely beyond repair, something that always surprised me considering it's intelligent design.

Quick word on insurance though. Insurance companies recieve information based on your cpu output, which they obtain from dealers in order to decide on your next insurance costs. The harder youve driven, the higher they charge you so beware.
Ok, ok, I lied on that bit!!! - The rest is true though!! Have fun.

[dcfkan]

MiNiGuY,

Welcome back! Hope all is well

DK :apple:

[MiNiGuY]

Hey, Hi DK!!

Still got Apple??

Hope your doing good.



EDIT ... oh yeah, just noticed your graphic!!

Apples a bit of a star I think. Maybe I'll get to meet her one day. Maybe I already have!! Who knows!! .

[IML337]

Definately sounds like a flat battery. Perhaps caused by the altenator not charging, or perhaps the battery was just fauly and not taking the charge.

I've seen many many cars do REALLY strange things like this, all because of failing batteries. I test drove a Range Rover once, and the air suspension collapsed, the car went into limp home mode, locked into 3rd gear, and wouldn't go over 60km/h. Radio/AC/lights still worked fine, but it was all because the battery was stuffed.

I know it sounds kinda scary, but if the diag checks are OK now, I think your car will be fine.

[plugot]

From MINIguy --"...in the unfortunate event of an accident it can be interrogated to give information it recieved from all sensory equipment for some time before the accident, including among others your rpms at change, your braking, your speed, and other information, so boy racers beware!!. Obviously these are not implementations designed to 'nanny state' or 'big brother' the way you use your own vehicle, it's just that the cpu CAN be interrogated if needs be."

Well here in the states Big Brother is alive and in court. A judge in New York state recently ruled that the CPU memory, aka "Black Box" can be used as evidence against the owner of the car. Speciffically, the black box from a 2002 Corvette that was involved in a high speed accident. The defendant's lawyer argued that the information contained in the CPU was the property of the owner and without a proper search warrant (which the police did not have) it couldn't be used in evidence. The judge ruled against him saying that since the device was in a car being operated on a public highway the defendant had no "presumption of privacy" and so the cops didn't need a warrant and the information contained within could be admitted.

Regardless of the merits of this particular case -- a young driver causing an accident in a car that he had no business racing on a street -- the larger issue of who controls the data included in these increasingly sophisticated devices is going to become a major in concern for all of us. Though it hasn't happened yet, at least that I'm aware of, the ability of cop to do an instant download "proving" that a driver was speeding based upon the CPU isn't very far off.

[Malin Dixon]

Quote: Originally Posted by plugot

Though it hasn't happened yet, at least that I'm aware of, the ability of cop to do an instant download "proving" that a driver was speeding based upon the CPU isn't very far off.

It all depends on what the courts / police want to believe. In the early days of radar guns, one lorry driver got done for speeding on the evidence of a radar gun only. His tacho showed about 5 mph but he still got prosecuted.

(In case the Americans don't know, a tacho, short for tachometer, records the speed of a lorry on a paper disk. They've been a legal requirement for commercial vehicles over 3.5 tonnes for about 30 years. They are calibrated every year and are much more accurate than car speedometers.)

[phoggberg]

Quote: Originally Posted by MiNiGuY

I'll mention here as general info for interested folk that the mini's cpu is made by siemens and is a very nice piece of kit. It holds immense amounts of information (cached) and in the unfortunate event of an accident it can be interrogated to give information it recieved from all sensory equipment for some time before the accident, including among others your rpms at change, your braking, your speed, and other information, so boy racers beware!!. Obviously these are not implementations designed to 'nanny state' or 'big brother' the way you use your own vehicle, it's just that the cpu CAN be interrogated if needs be. Any available information certainly wouldn't be used against you by dealers in any warranty claim and actually, as far as I know, dealer diagnostic machines dont give any options on that information anyway because it's factory accessed information to check that the car is running and performing correctly before shipment. Anyway, new MINI was hardly designed as a shopping trolley was it?!!
.

First many thanks to all who have responded. This is probably not the correct thread for this but I thought I would respond anyway. One of my best friends is a county attorney, other states u the US would call him a District Attorney or Prosecutor. For those outside of the US I am not sure what they call those who represent the Crown or the State, but whatever it is he is one of those. I asked him about obtaining this type of information -- His response was any relevant information is available by subpoena, at least here in the states, and in fact, a few months ago he got the information recorded in an 18 wheeler involved in an off freeway excursion, and used the info to convict the driver of driving at excessive speed/reckless driving. In other words the drivers own tractor convicted him even though there were no direct observation of the drivers speed, by radar etc. So kiddies watch it...they may not dump the computer for a speeding violation but an accident with injuries may make the time necessary to get the info worth it.

[MiNiGuY]

The posts on cpu interrogation are very interesting.
There ARE important reasons as to why these cpu's hold the information they do in order that a car can be factory interrogated to ensure the vehicle is 'behaving' correctly prior to dispatch.
However, as i'd previously mentioned, the cpu CAN also be interrogated in the event of an accident. I'm obviously not familiar with the laws on this from country to country and it's interesting to read that it is now, in USA at least, being used as evidence in court.
I, personally, can't really see a problem with this, and I would consider that anyone who does find it a problem is maybe viewing this technology as something that will entrap them rather than defend them if it ever becomes used. I would suggest, in that case, that this makes the technology all the more worthwhile.