I missed the HK upgrade after the factory postponement on Sept builds.
In starting the complete overhaul I changed the door speakers first. Wow ! If nothing else do this. If the HK came with the same drivers I would rip them out too. Even with out extra wattage from a remote amp I can stand to listen to it.
Sound insulation (dynamat, sort of), new 6x9's, two amps, and a head mod for low level outs are in the works. I hope to add to this post as I do it.
I used Pioneer 5 1/4" to save modifiying the door card. I realized that the speaker must seal against the door card to create an infinite baffel. I made an adapter from 3/4" birch ply and turned a pilot for a 6" section of PVC sewer pipe. What is not shown is a piece of foam pipe insulation I split and glued into a ring to fit over the PVC to make a soft seal against the door card. The distance from the door to the compressed foam is 1 1/2". This is the max space behind the door card. The adapter is fitted with 1/8" foam to seal to the door. #8 x 1" SS screws fit the door screw inserts. The tweeters are simple. Dremel the factory holder and the Pioneers press in. The crossover location is TBD.
Here is pic 1 showing the parts.
Pic 2 is the door with speaker. (On the second post. beacuse I can figure out how to include both.)
The door card is not going to come apart! The pieces are melted togeather with something like a plastic rivet. You could grind them off but you would need to do a lot of glueing.
right, I just wanted to point out to other folks that you do not have to modify the door to fit 6.5 speakers. There are plenty of speakers that will fit without any door mods.
If you pull the factory speakers out, is there ANY obstruction that comes between the speaker hole proper and the external skin of the door (ie. window tracks, braces)??? Would it be possible to mount a 6.5" with a 3" mounting depth in the door? I haven't seen one in person yet, mine won't be here for a couple of weeks. Anyone have any pics of the bare door, especially the speaker opening??? Any help would be appreciated.
Wow, nice install Bad Ess. I was just wondering about how one might seal around the speaker to prevent sound from escaping and bouncing around behind the door card. PVC pipe... You sir, are a genius!
Some questions:
Do you (anyone) feel that the stock speaker grills are "okay" to use with upgraded speakers? Especially 6.25" speakers? Is the hole big enough? Do they seem acoustically transparent enough? I like the idea of a stealth install, but I also think the stock grills are ugly! If they were hurting the sound as well, that would give me an excuse to get rid of them.
If one did get rid of the stock grills (not easy, I guess) could you "surface mount" the new speaker and then just snap the aftermarket grill onto the speaker? (Are grills still made that way? I guess they must be.) I realise to be able to mount the speakers securely to the outside of the door card, you'd need to make a thick spacer that filled the entire gap between card and door. Do-able? Can you elaborate on that "turned a pilot" phrase? What exactly did you do to the PVC pipe?
Are the doorcard and door exactly parallel to each other around the speaker? If I made a 1.5" thick spacer out of MDF, would the door card lay flat against it all the way around?
Please post pictures and further desciptions of how you mounted the tweeters. You're a brave man with a Dremel.
turned pilot? Are you talking a tuned port? If so that's very cool.
I myself was thinking that the Mini's limited space might be best served by a "transmission line" speaker design. I'd been toying with the idea of using a heat bent and tuned pvc tube to get lower bass freq. MC
I wanted this to look stock. I may change speakers again and or want to avoid attention from some guy with a crowbar checking my install. (The car gets alot of people drooling on the windows.) I think the grills are fine (transparent) for mid bass and up. The whole door breaths (vibrates)as it is. I will be stiffining the door card and door with a heavy pliable pvc membrane and 1/2" pvc foam. If you want to cut out the door card you could mount 6" speakers flush and attach different grills. I think the card is parralel to the door. My flange is about 1 3/8" off the door with the foam ring making up the rest. In my "smush" test the foam was evenly flattened. If you are going to remove the OEM grill, do it, re-install the card and measure. But yea an 1 1/2" spacer would work. Apparantly almost any 6" speaker will fit if spaced out to clear the window stuff.
I have a lathe to use so I turned the spacer to fit the PVC.(See pic.) That's what I meant by pilot. You could just epoxy the pipe on. It also happens that the OD of the speaker just fits the ID of the pipe. The surround needs to be protected from touching. Some installs I have read about make me wonder.
Personally I would not worry about jamming the biggest speaker in the doors. The bass is not going to come from there.
There are threads and pics in MINI2 somewhere of the tweeter mount and the basket that snaps into the door. The original tweeter snaps in this basket and is almost same OD as the Pioneer I used. The dremel work is to remove the detents and open up the basket slightly.
cheers,
yes there is an obstruction about 1/3 - 1/2 an inch into the door (window rail). you'll have to make lift out spacers (even the stock speakers sit on lift out spacers). I mounted 6.5 speakers with a mount depth of 68mm. that required a 3/4 inch spacer and only just cleared. 3 inches would require about 10mm more of space. It should fit, but make sure you line it up with the door card as you're close to max.
i would not top mount to the door cards. Instead do the spacer idea and just mount the speaker to the door and use the spacer to bring it forward. in order to bring it that far forward you will need to cut out the factory grill. There are pegs inside the grill that restrict clearance, to get it flush with the door card, you'll have to cut them out!
search for jlm's focal speaker install, he brought the speaker flush with the door card. he had to cut out the grill then glue it back on, but the picture shows what you want to do.
Okay, it sounds like the stock grills are the way to go. I may not like the look of them, but their anti-theft qualities probably make up for that.
If I understand folks correctly, the grills have some sort of internal structure (pegs?) that would prevent you from bringing a speaker up level with the door card? Is there any downside to grinding the obstructions away, other than the hassle factor?
I will look for that thread regarding the Focal install. I was thinking that the liberal application of some sort of Dynamat-like product to the back of the door card might help damp things down. It might even make the plastic door trim seem less plastic-y when tapped on. Is the foam intended to fill the space between door and card? Transferring vibration from the card, back into the sturdier metal door? I agree. 5.25" speakers will probably give you better mids as well. But, I just ran across a fella who was selling some barely used CDT HD-62's for $200, so I think I'll splurge a little. I've a couple 8" subs as well, but I may not really need them. I'm hoping to come up with a clever way to mount one of them in the boot, with the enclosure extending down into the battery compartment. We shall see...
I will have my damping material tomorrow. I am using componant parts of a foam barrier used on engine rooms on boats. The dampening layer is a 1 lb per squre foot PVC material with self stick. It looks somewhat like the stuff MINI uses. Covering 70% of a panel will stop most of the transmission from outside the car. The foam layer is to absorb any noise in the cavaties including dampening the speakers. I won't know where it goes or where it will fit until I tear into the car.
It may take a while to finish this project with the holidays etc.
Speakers for the front: my list was MB Quart, Infinity, Boston, A/d/s, Alpine. I listen to all these but was never able to A-B compair. I think I liked the Infinity the best because of the middle hi clarity. but...
For the rear 6x9's I was attracted by the low responce of the Pioneer TS-D960R's (24 HZ). If this is true, a couple of hundred watts and little EQ could vibrate the fuel cap and I'm rockin. (No sub in the plan as of now.)
A friend of mine had a source for Pioneer and a price that will make you cry, so sight unheard it's Pioneer all around. I am very impressed with the fronts as I said earlier.
I have ordered two Blaupunkt PA2100's. These are less than 6"x7"x2". They make almost no heat, are very powerful, and will fit in the hollow pockets in the boot.
Yep, those are the amps I'm looking to get as well. Teeny, cool running and they they draw less power at a given volume. I'll probably go with the PA2150 in front since that's a better match to my proposed speakers. MillionBuy.com seems to have the best prices I've found.
I really have no desire to replace the 6x9s. "Rear fill" mostly just serves to muddy the imaging. (I don't plan on having many passengers back there.) But those locations might be a good places to add some added bass. I might be able to get my 8" subs in there with some cutting, or if I could find a 6x9 "sub" of decent quality, that might be good too. I wonder if those Pioneers really go down that far???
While I'm on the subject, has anyone figured out the volume of the "enclosure" behind the rear speakers? My subs need about .5 cu ft.
These are good amp using some very new ideas. I would love to hear what you have to say about them after you get them installed.
I am looking at using them but have heard of some problems with the technology: 1 they pump the 12 volts. 2 The switching noise that they generate can also be quite high.
Both prolems can be over come if the amp is design right.
I don't know if there's .5 cuft in there, but your bigger problem is that it's not sealed. it's hard to describe if you've never been in there, but if you stick your hand in there. there is some foam at the rear part, but it is actually open to the rear of the car (the foam does seal it some, but its just foam). You can wiggle the foam out of the way and stick your hand out of the rear access panel--well if you were Reed Richards from the Fantastic Four, but you get the idea. There's a lot less volume there then it looks like from the outside!
My replacement subs did give better bass response then the factory ones. I added two way 6x9s, if you're worried out SQ issues from the rear I would stick with 1-ways. The two ways added rear fill for me, which I actually like, it suits me but maybe not you.
I'm still deciding on whether to add a subwoofer, the bass response right now is pretty good, but I haven't heard the difference with a sub. And the JL Stealthbox just came out, so I guess I'll visit the JL Dealer
But I doubt any 6x9 would out-perform a 8" sub, but it is a compromise of space versus sound.
I've heard mixed reviews, most people that have used both traditional amps (in this case rockford fosgate) say they prefer them over the Blaupunkt. The packaging does seem incredibly small.
For reference you can fit an amplifier 25cm x 18 cm in the cubby hole. Do a search for mikeythemini, he has a pick of a kenwood amp in each side. When I was shopping for amps there were a number that would fit (at least on paper). So there's more space in there then it looks!
Dang, so the compartments behind the 6x9s aren't sealed, eh? So much for another of my brilliant ideas. That leaves me with my fairly radical scheme to build a custom enclosure that will fit into the top 2/3rds or so of the battery box. (The battery is being replaced by a much smaller one.) If that plan falls through, then I'll just have to mount the sub in one of these little puppies. Not very sexy, but it should work.
What's the scoop on these JL Audio Stealthbox dealies? I'd never heard of them before today. They've released a box custom made for the MINI? I suppose they already come with a matched driver, huh? Not good for me since I already bought my subs. Dang it. I'm a sucker for sales.
I am just building a good system I can enjoy for the music. I think the PA2100s will be fine. 100 watts per corner will give lots of headroom. I looked at the small Kenwoods but I can't see them living in the rear wheel wells packed in foam and dead air. They would have to be wired then stuffed in.
sounddomain.com has the 2100's for $209. Did I get hosed?
Rears:
I plan to gut out the interior to get to it. I have observed the foam block. I see a challange. The car is small and my book almost over speakered. I am sure bass won't be an issue. (I don't listen to rap.)
Don't build a floor in the boot. The cabin air exaust is the grills below the latch through the rear bumper.
the JL stealthbox is an enclosure that sits flush to one side of the boot area, it hugs to one side much more then a traditional box, using up some of that dead space. It comes with or without a woofer, takes a 10". Of course it's more expensive then that Qlogic box, which is for an 8" right?
I'm not sure about your tool space idea either , maybe for a 5-6 inch sub, but not an 8.
An idea from another board, is to replace the shelf in the boot with a box, and then put 2-3 5inch subs in the box. you only give up space above, and you can still take it out. Unfortunately the only woofer I've found that would suit this would be the Focal 5WS which is about $150 per woofer! Doh!
I think the Blaupunkt AMPS are fine, especially since they're so small. The "complaint" I've heard is that they seem better on paper then in use. They are a new technology, so it will take time for people to warm up to them. I personally couldn't tell much difference when I heard them, but I only listened for a few minutes in the store.
"Hosed" is a bit too strong. MSRP is $370 for that unit, after all. That said, for your own happiness you probably don't want to look at Millionbuy's prices. Good to remember. My "plan", such that it is, is to keep the same "floor". I'd just be building a box that hangs from the bottom of the floor. (Down into the now-mostly-empty battery campartment.) I'll have to futz around with my replacement battery's postioning, and do some measuring before I'll know whether there's enough room.
Nah, an 8" ought to work. The "Minibox Subs" I've purchased only require a .25 cu.ft. enclosure, but a .5 cu.ft. space would be better still. I think something in that range is possible, as long I can figure out a way to move the battery away from the center of the box. That may be tricky, what with that huge emergency power-cutoff doohickey.
Can you elaborate on how Blaupunkt's "plastic amps" may not be living up to their specs? Do they supposedly not make their rated power? They've been out quite a while now and I've been unable to find anyone with anything bad to say about them. (Quite the opposite.) I'm still looking though. I'd rather get the bad news *before* I buy'em!
The Amp uses Class T technology. A quick overview: it is like D class but it provides the full audio range unlike class D which can only be used in sub or bass frequency.
If you are only drive subs, a class D might be the way to go, as it is a cheaper to build. Class T is more for high power full range audio in a small case that does not get to hot. This is due to the efficiency of Class T is above 90%.
Don’t think making the power will be an issue, it is more like the cost per watt and the noise they can introduce.
I should have been more specific, my comments are really subjective (as pretty much everything car audio is, so don't take it poorly). I'm not bad-mouthing them, the size thing is a huge benefit. But when i auditioned speakers, they had a Blaupunkt and Rockford Fosgates hooked up to a speaker board. I liked the sound out of the RF better (even though it was rated at a lower wattage). I didn't have anything against the BP, it sounded fine, but on my purely subjective level I liked the RF better.
I think both would serve your needs fine. But you do have to pay a good deal, the cost/watt is high compared to other amps.
i've been contemplating the same sub since they seem so sensitive for the given power rating. the JL Stealthbox sounds like it will be super expensive. I'm thinking of building my own small enclosure (i'll just copy the qlogic dimensions) and calling it a day. it's easy enough to remove the subwoofer when needed. and it would be way cheaper!
There is well over 1/2 cu foot in the 6x9 well. It is really deep too. There is no sound deading and only a chunk of foam on the back of the finish panel. I think I will block off this area with one part foam or something to make an acoustic suspension type baffel.
Removing the old speakers revealed some really cheap 6x9's with a small magnet light fram, paper surround, and no tweeter.
I got hosed a few bucks at sounddomain.com. Million buy must be closer to China. Where were you guys when I was shopping?
These amps are not competition grade but this is the default because of size. I found the manual fuel cap release lever in the space where one amp will go. I have to give it some room. I don't know what is in the way on the other side.
Google is your friend. MillionBuy, which I had never heard of, comes up as the 6th link if you Google for "Blaupunkt PA2150". I also used a couple online "shopping engines" to try to find something even cheaper, but so far that's the best I've seen.
Thanks for all the input regarding the Class T amps. I'm certainly not looking for "teh best amp EVAR", so I imagine I'll be fully satisfied with the sound. I think a lot of the "traditionalists" tend to dismiss this sort of new tech. Heck, if it ain't got tubes (valves) in it, it can't be any good!
The MINI H/K system also uses "digital" amps, correct?
And yes, mounting the sub in a simple, smallish, sealed box is certaining the easiest way to go. I may end up doing that if I get lazy. I'd like to rig things so the box could be "unplugged" and removed when I needed the space.
That Q-Logic box is only $46 or so, so it might be easier to buy one than make one. Shipping might be expensive though...
I think you will find the audio amp part of the Amp (if that makes sense) is a class A/B.
The digital reference comes in with the use of a DSP. i.e. the analog audio comes in from head unit speaker outputs then is converted to digital via A/D. The digital music is then passed to the DSP chip to it thing (speed vol, music setting and driver focus). Now depend on how clever Mr H/k was we could do the crossovers for the speakers in the DSP or convert it back to analogue and then run it through the analog crossovers (but active). Lastly the audio is sent via the final audio amp then to the speakers.
I found the quarter section of the rear speaker cavity to be open over the wheel well to the tail light section. MINI put a thin piece of foam in as an air dam. I think this speaker area should be solidly boxed in. I thought about one part foam in a plastic bag to fill the gaps but my experiment never cured. Perhaps stuffing some heavy chunks of foam in there would do it. I want to avoid the mess of strait one part foam i.e. Great Stuff.
Does any one know how critical the ridgity of the wall is? I know most speaker boxes are solid. Does a wall of foam mess it up? I could cut and fit some plywood and silicone it in.
Here is the MINI baffel. The next shot is the wheel well lookin back on the left side of the car. The bump is the fuel fill pipe cover etc. I shot this with a light in the tail light area.
Nice experimenting and photography. We'll have to chip in and buy you a flexible endoscope.
Perhaps a 2-part foam would cure better in a sealed bag? I've been looking at the foam that Tap Plastics sells. I have a store local to me, so I was able to play with a cured sample. The stuff is quite rigid when set up. (I was thinking of using the foam to created a "form" for a fiberglass enclosure that would fit down into the battery box.)
Man, the opportunities for amusing foam accidents are almost unlimited. Mix too much and it might expand to fill the entire MINI! Seems like you might want to do something like this:
- Place a bag in the area where you want the foam "bulkhead".
- Use some chunks of squeezable foam or something to contain the bag, fore and aft. Perhaps the stock "dam" can be used. Duct tape might also help.
- Locate someplace where you can pour the goop into the top of the bag, and make sure you're prepared to deal with the extra foam that will come squirting back out!
- Once the foam is set, you should be able to remove some of the bag and if necessary, carve the foam into its final configuration. (I'm sure it will have bulged in places.)
- You might want to "paint" some extra foam goo around the edges of the bulkhead, to make sure the foam is sealed to the metal. Maybe do some syringe work to fill gaps.
I don't know, but I suspect that six inches of this foam would be fine as part of an enclosure. It certainly won't be heavy like MDF, but if it's airtight it oughta give you some nice damping qualities. You'll probably want to put some acoustic stuffing in the chamber anyway. Not sure if this was directed at me and my tiny battery, but if it was: The small battery only has about one third the amp-hours of a standard batt. So, I'd only get about one third the time. (I figure I'll need to be careful about that sort of thing. The battery will be more than adequate to start and run the car, but I won't want to run a lot of accessories with the car shut off.) Another reason to go with super efficient amps...
I was knocking you on the battery. I used to run down a group 24 in about 20 minutes with a system with only one extra amp. (I might have to change batteries to compensate for the extra 10 lbs of magnets.)
If one could stand the MINI on end I would consider using two part foam. It is very hard to deliver without gravity. BE CAREFUL with this stuff it can push panels out.
Do you think foam is stiff enough. I would definely damp it and fill the cavity with hollow fill fluff too.
I think this 6x9 location has potential. I will run two pair of wires in case I bi-amp or change brands later.
I can see the road noise will be reduced by the proposed treatment. That's a big plus.
I'm off the project for a few days..standby..happy and merry.
Hey Dave,
Although I had my speakers professionaly installed, The 6.5 JLs fit perfectly with the stock grills and sound too awesome. There is a company that makes speaker adapters that will work. I think it is Metra or something similar, Circuit City carries the line and would know the correct name. Anyway, they make a 1" spacer I was going to use with the Infinity speakers I bought before I discovered JL Audio. No modifications are necessary.
I definitely think that 2-part foam is stiff enough. It seemed significantly harder than styrofoam, although not much denser. I squeezed the softball-sized chunk that was in the store, and I couldn't compress it at all. It sounds "hard" (and kinda hollow) when you rap on it with your knuckles. Neat stuff, I thought.
I just thought of a another wacky way to form your enclosure(s). It's sort of the inverse of your foam-in-a-bag idea. Take something like a beachball, insert it (deflated) into the area behind the 6x9 cutout. Then inflate it to your desired enclosure volume. Then, block off the area well aft of the cutout, maybe using the supplied piece of foam you described earlier. Finally, pour the expanding foam stuff "around" the beachball-like object. After the foam hardens, remove the beachball and enjoy your organically shaped, acoustically neutral, hermetically sealed enclosure!
Finding the right object to "pour around" would be the tricky part. That, and getting the foam to completely fill all voids without busting out (or into) anywhere you don't want it to. I think you'd need to pour from the very top, (that gravity thing you mentioned) and also allow any excess foam to escape the top in a controlled manner. I imagine you'd want to drill a "fill" hole up high on the panel. The foam I linked to can be poured in stages, I believe. I think as long as the area was not closed off while the foam was still expanding, the foam wouldn't exert much pressure on its surroundings. (But, I don't know for sure!)
A nice bonus is that your MINI will be unsinkable!
I made a wood pattern after the MINI foam part and cut it down and into two halfs to get this pattern. The panels are made from .050 aluminium. The grid is 1" squares. Make two identical and cut out for the fuel fill. It is a puzzle to get them in the hole. I glued them to the inboard lump with construction adhesive (Liquid nails). A day later I put in a support stick and filled the voids with one can of (16 oz) Minmal Expanding Great Stuff foam per side. I added an 18" piece of hose to the Great Stuff tube. There was no pushing power in the foam, I expected the panel to flex or deform if there was but it did not move. I have foam well over the wheel wells now as I observe from the tail light holes. Clean up is easy breaking away the extra foam. I am ready for Dynamat and some hollow fill stuffing. Should be awesome...
Ess
Last edited by Bad Ess; Dec 30th, 2002 at 04:53 PM.
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That leaves me with my fairly radical scheme to build a custom enclosure that will fit into the top 2/3rds or so of the battery box. (The battery is being replaced by a much smaller one.) If that plan falls through, then I'll just have to mount the sub in one of 
Mix too much and it might expand to fill the entire MINI! Seems like you might want to do something like this:
