Speakers - the next step

[Rich C]

OK, I've already raved about how impressed I was with the standard speakers but I'm one of those people who's never satisfied

So, been looking at a few options. One was to upgrade the fronts (still 15cm) and have a 10" sub installed in the boot (remember this is a cabriolet) but that was just too impractical once I thought about it - loosing over 1/3 of the boot space was too much plus the amp.

So, next idea - amp'd 16.5s in the front - I know I won't get anything like the base potential of the sub - but how much better have people found them than the std 15s? I'm no bass junkie, but like good reproduction (give the restraints presented by the cab of course). Music taste covers the whole spectrum - Van Halen, through Jean Michel Jarre, a little RnB, Classic FM to hardcore dance - I like what I like.

[NIRLN]

This probably won't help, but I've just been down to Ray Smith, who gave me various demos ... and I reckon I'm going to upgrade the HU to the Alpine 9835R, and stick a set of Focals on the front. With the Bass Engine in the Alpine HU, there is a warm enough bass repro ... the upgraded front speakers keep things crisp and crystal clear ... and there's more than enough volume to kill a small donkey if you strap it into the driver's seat.

In short, a top solution if you don't want to get too anally fixated with your ICE.

[SteveM3]

Well I went through various stages and found the following
1) New HU made big improvement with surprisingly good standard speakers.
2) Changed fronts to Focal Polyglass 165V2 and Genesis 6x9 subs and thought the
improvement worthwhile but not a large improvement.
3) Added a 10" sub driven by my Genesis amp while I looked for a compact sub amp,
this made a big difference. 6x9's relegated to reinforcing mid-bass.
4) Found a compact sub amp, Hi-Fonics Falcon and used my Genesis SM60 to drive
the Focals as intended. Sub sounded the same as before but the Focals really came
alive at this point.
So it does seem if you can't do a boxed sub in the boot you are going to be limited in
the frequencies being reproduced but amping the fronts will definitely be worthwhile if
you want quality. I don't play my Focals any louder with the Genesis than when they
were HU powered but it's so much better. In summary your plan is as good as it gets
without the deepest bass. Also check on a thread I'm about to start on possibly the
worlds smallest subs.

[Nicholasp27]

so the Genesis 6x9 'subs' really aren't an acceptable substitute for a real sub in the trunk? Have you tried the Tang-Band 6x9 'subs?'

Also, did you enclose the Genesis 'subs' or leave them open? Did you use sound deadener?


I'm really hoping to find an acceptable alternative to putting a full sub in my boot...

[SteveM3]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nicholasp27

so the Genesis 6x9 'subs' really aren't an acceptable substitute for a real sub in the trunk? Have you tried the Tang-Band 6x9 'subs?'

Also, did you enclose the Genesis 'subs' or leave them open? Did you use sound deadener?


I'm really hoping to find an acceptable alternative to putting a full sub in my boot...

Well the problem with the 6x9's is they didn't go much deeper than the 6.5" Focals. I used
lots of dynamat extreme on the panel the 6x9's were bolted to and lots behind. It wasn't
sealed at first but then later I did seal them, couldn't tell any difference though. A good
pair of 6.5's amped will go fairly low so I would try this route first and see if that is o.k. to
your ears, it may well be. It's only that last bit of depth missing and if boot space is a
priority it's a minor sacrifice.

[Nicholasp27]

well i'll be going from a 12" shiva that hits 140db (i don't listen to it that loudly) to possibly 6x9 "subs" so i know it'll be a HUGE difference. However, I don't listen to it that loud, just want to cover the range decently with the speakers sounding like nice tight bass, not like speakers that are trying desperately to play bass

[GaryM]

Rich C just wondered where you are with this? As I have already gone down the root you describe and also have a 10" spare from the previous install. BTW some locations for your amps that don't impact on normal space is the tool tray in the boot and under the front seats (cut the carpet and remove the polystyrene wedge).

And I can totally confirm SteveM3's results. The 6.5" Focal's up front were good off the Alpine HU but just came alive once amped. So I have the stock rear speakers to replace and a quest to find deeper clean bass. I was thinking of putting 5 / 6" subs in place of the rear speakers but I'm really not that sure if they will go that much lower than the Focals do already.

Steve how hard are you driving the Focals (what is the amp rated at in watts RMS)? I'm powering them with 62.5W RMS from a RF 500X and they do seem to breakup quite early and I'm not sure if it is the amp or the limit of the speakers. At the moment I'm having to knock bass off with the active cross over in the HU to keep them sane at the louder volumes. Part of the problem is that I'm cranking the system up more to overcome cabin noise.

Nicholasp27 have you heard Focals? They certainly don't struggle with bass like others do and (I'm guessing now) would happily compare to 6 x 9 subs. No contest however, to your 12" sub.

[SteveM3]

Quote: Originally Posted by GaryM

Steve how hard are you driving the Focals (what is the amp rated at in watts RMS)? I'm powering them with 62.5W RMS from a RF 500X and they do seem to breakup quite early and I'm not sure if it is the amp or the limit of the speakers. At the moment I'm having to knock bass off with the active cross over in the HU to keep them sane at the louder volumes. Part of the problem is that I'm cranking the system up more to overcome cabin noise.

I am using a Genesis SM60 which is rated at 54.6W left and 55.0W right on my test
certificate. Thats at 0.1% distortion 20Hz-20KHz with a supply voltage of 14.3 volts. My
ears complain before the Focals and my dad reckons he can hear me coming when I
visit. When trying different settings for my crossover I found that letting through the whole
frequency range did no harm to the Focals. However I have my HU crossover set at 63Hz
as anything lower is just not reproduced. So I am surprised you are having problems. I
made my own adaptors for the Focals as I am a believer in the quality of wood, are you
using plastic adaptors?

[GaryM]

Quality wood ? ... MDF but is it hard. Does need a lick of vanish paint etc to keep out the moisture though.

I also have the crossover at 63Hz with 18db slope but to limit the lower frequencies prevent the power being wasted down there. However My Focal's have a natural cutoff at about 45Hz and they do certainly reproduce down there too.

Most music is fine but it is just the odd few tracks that have prolonged deep bass that play up. As an experiment and as I have 2 channels spare on the amp at the moment I might bridge them with the fronts so that I'll be pushing twice the power. That way I should find what it is that that is on the limit. I thought both the speaker and amp were conservatively rated with headroom to spare but I might be wrong.

BTW RichC you might find that this is all getting a bit anal, but reading between the lines and seeing your tastes in music I think you will find that a modest but "quality" install will give the results you are after. Quality means steer clear of grossly overestimated "700W power ratings etc. Look for kit that is quoting figures in RMS. If it honest enough to use these figures then there is a good chance that the rest of it is quality too.

Something like...

- Upper end HU, I happen to like Alpine HU's as they form very versatile building blocks
- Quality Speakers all round well fitted and dampened (don't underestimate this)
- Use an external amp to power it.

[Bianchiboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by GaryM

Steve how hard are you driving the Focals (what is the amp rated at in watts RMS)? I'm powering them with 62.5W RMS from a RF 500X and they do seem to breakup quite early and I'm not sure if it is the amp or the limit of the speakers. At the moment I'm having to knock bass off with the active cross over in the HU to keep them sane at the louder volumes. Part of the problem is that I'm cranking the system up more to overcome cabin noise.

I'm running 150 watts per channel at 4 ohms from one of my Genesis dual mono amps in to some Dynaudio components, no distortion (well, only 0.1% according to the certificate), no problems. Bear in mind that speakers can take much more "clean" power than you'd expect, but you can kill speakers with a relatively low powered amp that's being driven into distortion. A good pair of speakers in the front, properly installed and driven by a good quality amp will transform your sound beyond belief. Don't get too hung up on power ratings, there's a lot more to it than that. Dynamat is a great idea but if you're going to do it properly don't stick the odd patch on the inside of the door, get a pro in and use a bulk pack. It makes the car feel better built too!