Soft top V's Tin top retractable

[JG.26]

Hi all,

I don't venture in here too often but I thought it would interesting to ask the question. Would a rectractable tin top appeal more to you for your next car over the more traditional fabric roof. When I decided to change from my tin top Cooper S, I really wanted a cabriolet but couldn't bring myself to go for a fabric roof car. I had a Toyota MR2 roadster 7 years ago and disliked it immensly, it was very noisy with the hood up. Retractable tin tops seem to becoming more the norm now with the MX5 bringing out the Coupe. I read though that Audi is sticking to traditional soft tops for the forseable future as they say design is compromised for a folding tin top. It was a hard decision to move away from MINI and decided to go for the new Peugeot 207 CC, pics attached, at least it uses the same engine . I wasn't specifically thinking a Peugeot, just that it was the only make and model that I liked which fell in my price range.

If your staying with open top motoring in the future, would this type of car appeal? not necesarily the Peugeot but any other makes too?

Tim

[Paul]

Hate to say this, but personally I've yet to see a CC, in particular a small one, that I don't think looks a compromised mess. So in that respect, I like the soft top, and would chose one over a "hard top convertible" any day of the week.

[jamski]

Personally I don't particularly like soft tops (fabric tops), but would like to see what they could do with a metal folding roof, although, given the limited space already in a mini, can't see how they could do it without really changing the design. Maybe no back seats, or no boot at all?!

I'm not too keen on the 207 in any of it's forms, had one as a hire car (OK very basic) but the build quality was nothing compared to my MC, although I can see the 207cc may be better. However I was a fan of the 206, but hated the 206cc. Like Paul said, I think the design is compromised, really not nice. Mercedes to well with their folding tin tops, from what I've seen, but that's a whole other price bracket I guess.

Anyway if Mini could do a tin top without compromising the design I'm all for it!

[JG.26]

Quote: Originally Posted by Paul Mullett (original)

Hate to say this, but personally I've yet to see a CC, in particular a small one, that I don't think looks a compromised mess. So in that respect, I like the soft top, and would chose one over a "hard top convertible" any day of the week.

I would agree Paul, like you say especially where it's a small car, the problem is most have a high rump although I have to say I think Peugeot have done a good job in keeping things in proportion with the 207. I dislike the 307 CC especially with roof up as it looks odd. Thing I like about it, not so much the looks but the refinement and looks neater than having the roof sitting on the back of the car. Little things put me off a fabric roof, like maintenance and wear marks etc.

[eggtruck]

The folding tin tops are just a trend that all the car makers are following. Tin tops must make tha car a lot heavier? I reckon one of the best looking cabs ever made was the 306.

Mini would prob have to be a 2 seater if it had a convertible tin top because it is too small.

[JG.26]

Quote: Originally Posted by jamski (original)

Personally I don't particularly like soft tops (fabric tops), but would like to see what they could do with a metal folding roof, although, given the limited space already in a mini, can't see how they could do it without really changing the design. Maybe no back seats, or no boot at all?!

I'm not too keen on the 207 in any of it's forms, had one as a hire car (OK very basic) but the build quality was nothing compared to my MC, although I can see the 207cc may be better. However I was a fan of the 206, but hated the 206cc. Like Paul said, I think the design is compromised, really not nice. Mercedes to well with their folding tin tops, from what I've seen, but that's a whole other price bracket I guess.

Anyway if Mini could do a tin top without compromising the design I'm all for it!

Compared to the R56 I found the build quality of the 207 CC on a par and better than the 207 hatch as it has extra bracing in the rear wings and doors to compensate which makes it a bit of a heavyweight. Problem with the R56 I test drove were the annoying rattles but another story!!

[rentagas]

List of CC cars I would buy

VW EOS 3.2 V6 4WD (but only for the engine and drivetrain really)
Mercedes SLK/SL

That's it...............................

List of fabric convertible cars I would buy.............

LOTS!
But:

Aston Martin V8 vantage roadster
Porsche 91 carrera 4s convertible
Audi S4/RS4/3.0TDi

I have to say I wouldn't buy another current model MINI convertible, mostly because of the appalling roof but also because of it's inability to put the power through the front wheels in anything other than dry,level tarmac. I would buy a MINI coupe though (and am doing).

In general CC cars are heavy, bend in the middle, look ugly, are slow and cramped, Modern multilayered roofed fabric convertibles CAN be quiet, rain proof, secure and reliable-so why buy tin?

[JG.26]

Quote: Originally Posted by rentagas (original)

List of CC cars I would buy

VW EOS 3.2 V6 4WD (but only for the engine and drivetrain really)
Mercedes SLK/SL

That's it...............................

List of fabric convertible cars I would buy.............

LOTS!
But:

Aston Martin V8 vantage roadster
Porsche 91 carrera 4s convertible
Audi S4/RS4/3.0TDi

I have to say I wouldn't buy another current model MINI convertible, mostly because of the appalling roof but also because of it's inability to put the power through the front wheels in anything other than dry,level tarmac. I would buy a MINI coupe though (and am doing).

In general CC cars are heavy, bend in the middle, look ugly, are slow and cramped, Modern multilayered roofed fabric convertibles CAN be quiet, rain proof, secure and reliable-so why buy tin?

Would have loved the VW EOS as it's one of the nicest ones around BUT too expensive in my pricerange

Would agree heavy, depending whats powering it, bend in the middle? mine doesn't, ugly can be yes, but I do like the car I have bought as much as the MINI tin top in terms of looks, certainly turns heads. Is the MINI's roof multilayered? not sure, I thought this was the preserve of more expensive soft tops which is where the 207 scores highly for refinement at this price range compared to most soft tops?.

[rentagas]

If I had to buy a convertible for £15,000-20,000. I'd\ buy an MX5 but if I needed 4 seats it would be difficult. Peugeot would be on the list..............................i wouldn't buy another MINI convertible though.

[lespurgeon]

I've never seen the need for the auto-retracting roof. Now a 911 Targa, that would be my choice for a removable hardtop.

[Arbil]

Folding tin-tops are for hairdressers!
Part of the joy of a convertible IS the fabric roof. You can't replicate that sound of rain on a fabric roof. Maybe I am just a purist!

[Scrogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by JG.26 (original)

I read though that Audi is sticking to traditional soft tops for the forseable future as they say design is compromised for a folding tin top.

BMW said exactly the same thing before designing the current 3 Series Convertible.

Now that they've proven a decent 4-seater can have a folding hard-top I'm sure it's only a matter of time before Audi, Saab and Mercedes will follow suit

[Tonyt3]

When discussing this subject, you mustn't confuse a proper sports car with a softtop to one of these new breed oc CC cars. They are two different offerings imho, and the CC often contains many compromises that the sports car doesnt because the CC tries to hard to do too many things.

One of the biggest issues is boot space. two people in a sports car can still have adeqaute lugage space, yet 4 people in a CC dont have adequate space so have to leave the roof up when travelling anywhere. To me this is a design flaw.

People often complain about fabric roofs discolouring or showing signs of wear. Unfortunatly, this is a feature of soft top cars, and shouldnt be treated as a straight forward fault. Yes, if you fold a material (any material, even metal) it will stress and eventually become damaged. The CC gets around this by not infact having a folding roof, but by having a solid roof that has segmented, hinged parts. This adds great weight and complexity to the mechanism.

Many of CC cars suffer from unreliable roof mechanisms, and personally I would be worried about buying a CC car thats gone out of warranty. One snapped cable or failed motor is going to leave you stuffed, with an undrivable car thats open to the elements and needing an expensive roof rebuild.

Soft top car on the other hand suffer degredation of their composite materials over time. The weather, over use, and even just material degredation will cause the vehicle to become rather tired looking over time. Usually when a soft top roof fails however it can still be closed manually (although not with the current Mini I beleive). However, soft top roofs are easily replaced after some years of use, there are many specialists that provide this service. An old MX5 or MGF can usually be re roofed for under £500 (fitted).

So its pro's and cons with open topped motoring, usually more cons. Technically, buying a soft top is really a good way of wasting a couple of grand. Many people fail to use them during good weather, for many reasons. Women dont like the hair being blown around, the kids find theres too much sun sat in the back, people cant hear each other talking at anything other than slow speed etc etc. There seem to be many reasons why people dont put their roof down, even in sunny weather. So, you buy a car (avergae car use is just 5% of people time), and then you choose to spend a couple of thousand pounds more getting a convertible.... which you only use 5% of the time that you are actually in the car.... So, in fact, you spend thousands on a device thats only used for a few hours at most each month. Lets say a total time of 2 days in a year.

They just really dont make much economic sense, as well as being the biggest set of design compromises ever put together........

[Paul]

Quote: Originally Posted by Arbil (original)

Folding tin-tops are for hairdressers!
Part of the joy of a convertible IS the fabric roof. You can't replicate that sound of rain on a fabric roof. Maybe I am just a purist!

Ever been camping.

[rentagas]

I agree with most of the things Tony says. If you buy a convertible it is a complete waste of time not driving it with the roof down. One of the key things about the MINI convertible is that providing it is going above 30mph it will keep you dry even when it is raining and can keep you warm in temperatures below freezing. In fact much of the joy of driving one is not when it's baking hot sun but in other weather conditions.
However few people do drive convertibles in all weathers and most people think you're a nutter if you do. You do need a ceratin amount of "confidence" to do so.
Of course having the roof down means that passers by cannot see what an appalling mess the roof fabric is in.I also agree that keeping a convertible with a dodgy roof, that costs £1500 just to replace the fabric, past the warranty date is not sensible.