KW V2 coilover suspension problem

[ERdoc]

I hope some of you suspension experts can solve/explain my MCS suspension problem....

My right hand drive 2003 MCS was fitted with a set of KW V2 coilover suspension 11 months/7,000km ago. I chose a fairly complaint setting: one turn out of 3.5 turns from softest on the rebound adjustment.

All was well until three months ago when the off side of the car started scraping the ground. The steering feel had also changed with a tendency pulling to the right. I also found it easier to turn the steering wheel towards the left (near side) than to the off side (right side). The ride has also become harsher with less adequate damping. The car had also become very sensitive to irregular road surfaces and on the whole the car felt very nervous. I found myself having to grip the steering wheel tightly in order not to lose control. Now the near side of the car is also scraping the ground and the off side has become worse. Visually the car is riding a lot lower than before. I have earlier photos to compare.

According to KW, at MAXIMUM lowering, the distance bewteen centre of the wheel to the fender edge should be 315mm. My car is at MINIMUM lowering and the measurement of the near side wheel is 314mm, the off side wheel is 308mm. In other words, at MINIMUM lowering, my car is riding lower than it should be at MAMIMUM lowering.

I also had the alignment checked: the front near side camber is -0.5 degrees, the off side at -1.0, My car does not have camber plates fitted thus adjustment is not an issue. My car has not been involved in a crash and all measurements were taken with the car on a flat surface. The front of the car is riding so low now, especially the off side, the tyre rubber is rubbing against the plastic fender trim at times, peeling part of it off.

The response from KW is that I need some spring spacers and they have kindly forwarded a pair, hoping to inrease the ride height. This, to me, is not the answer:

Why has the ride height dropped significantly over the past few months? The car is now at minimum lower (maximum height permissible).

Why is one side lower than the other?

With the dampers fitted on the car I cannot inspect them properly, but I strongly suspect they have worn prematurely.

To sum up:

My car is now very twitchy to drive, demanding 110% concentration.
The front ride height has dropped a lot, especially the off side.
The steering response is not linear and feels 'odd'.
The ride is harsh and the damping is inadequate.
Adjusting the front damping control does not make as much difference as it did previsouly.

Thank you all in advance for your input. Your advice will be much appreciated.

Joseph

[roland2003]

Hi, Joseph,
You can only compare side to side ride height when parked on 100% flat,screeded
floor. Also a low OSF (for example ) may be because the NSR is too high,so worth checking.All suspension settles a little,though I would say no more than 5mm.
If yours has gone more than that, it could be that the springs have not been correctly heat treated and therefore take a greater permanent set. Check also the top mounts as anything wrong or broken here effects ride height. Personally I wouldnt use anything
other than Bilstein PSS9 on my cars,but I suppose that doesn't realy help.
Best Regards Roland Gt Tuning

[ERdoc]

Quote: Originally Posted by roland2003

Hi, Joseph,
You can only compare side to side ride height when parked on 100% flat,screeded
floor. Also a low OSF (for example ) may be because the NSR is too high,so worth checking.All suspension settles a little,though I would say no more than 5mm.
If yours has gone more than that, it could be that the springs have not been correctly heat treated and therefore take a greater permanent set. Check also the top mounts as anything wrong or broken here effects ride height. Personally I wouldnt use anything
other than Bilstein PSS9 on my cars,but I suppose that doesn't realy help.
Best Regards Roland Gt Tuning

Thanks Roland! I w ish I were still in the UK so I could take my car to you.

The NSF is also too low, but not as bad as the OSF. The ride height has definitely been dropping over the past few months since the car is scraping the ground more and more severly along the same stretch of road. These KWs have been on my car for eleven months now and they have only been bad for the past three months. At minimum lowering they are still lower than what they should be at maximum lowering! I would say the car is borderline undriveable now.

I have experienced Bilstein PSS9 on a E46 M3 and they are indeed excellent. I will be getting the same for my own M3. Now I wish I had opted the same for my MCS instead of the KWs. I guess at worst I will have to get a set of PSS9 for the Mini. These KWs have been disappointing and inconveient: the rear dampers have to be removed before they can be adjusted.

One question: if you had a customer complaining the same would you return the dampers to the manufacturer for replacement? While I accept dampers are subjected to wear and tear but eleven months and 4,000km is stretching a bit!

Cheers, Joseph

[roland2003]

No problem Joseph,
In the UK it is normal to send the parts back to the supplier,however in this case they may send the kit back to the manufacturers anyway,so may be quicker?
Another common problem on adj. ride height kits is if set too low they bottom out
internally, damaging the piston assembly. This 'shouldn't ' happen but has been known
if set too low and/or bump stops left off ?
Regards Roland Gt Tuning.

[ERdoc]

Quote: Originally Posted by roland2003

No problem Joseph,
Another common problem on adj. ride height kits is if set too low they bottom out
internally, damaging the piston assembly. This 'shouldn't ' happen but has been known
if set too low and/or bump stops left off ?
Regards Roland Gt Tuning.

Thanks Roland.
My KWs have always been at minimum lowering (i.e. maximum ride height) since day one, but the ride height of the car has been dropping alramingly over the past few months, especially the OSF. In your experience, would a defective damper reduce the ride height?
Cheers, Joseph

[roland2003]

Hi Joseph,
No it won't. You could drill a quarter inch hole in the damper letting all the oil
drain onto the floor and the static ride height will not change. It is possible for a damper
to seize at the 'fully in' position though. Much more likely is a spring fault or top mount
collapsing .Also just check the strut body hasn't slid down in the clamp at the bottom,
in theory it cant as the bracket on it stops it going to far, unless somethings very wrong?
I assume youve checked your spring platforms are still set at the same height.
ps. I dont think we'll be selling KW.
Regards Roland Gt Tuning

[uae mini]

check to see if your springs haven't been nicked
anyway, KW was my first choice before I saw those Bilstein's.... then I saw the Tein + EDFC for easy adjustability and that was it. Love at first site? (nope)... it was logic.

On the go adjustability is my 1st priority. Not to forget way cheaper than the Bilstein's I don't know why really... I mean these are Tein's we are talking about. Yes it would have cost more if it came with a pillow ball mount but they don't make them for the Mini.

I'm still awaiting the arrival of these gems and I hope I don't see any damaging signs that you have.

BOT, the KW's are very good from customer reports.. seriously they use them on porsches and motorsports. I'm surprised you waited this long and haven't checked them until know
Go to a specialist and have them dismantle it to see the problem up close... you are still standing there!! GO

[Mike Edwards]

Just a thought - as they're coilovers - have you checked the lock-rings on the spring seats are tight?

If they aren't, you would be amazed at how quickly the spring seats on the front units will wind themselves down the dampers...

[NearlyNN]

I had the same setup as my first coilovers. Notice I said my first. I had very similar problems and long discussions with KW. Their v.2 is for lowering. Show not go.

My car was so twitchy on the track, there were instructors that didn't want to drive it. At its highest setting the car was too low. I had no adjustability at all. Apring spacers are not a good answer, since you reduce travel. And what if you really want to raise it someday to do some real rallying. OUt of luck. Not what I expect from coilovers. When we went over the specs carefully, it seemed to show that no matter what, they were going to lower the car a bunch.

KW and I kind of came to terms. I thought they were good people who just didn't explain their product very well. I was told that they were working on a "sport" version for people that want to go to the track on occasion. Don't know if they have released it.

For what it is worth, I went to Ledas and I love them. I guarantee you, the one place I will never ever again worry about price is suspension. I'd rather rip mods out of my engine if I had to finance better suspension. There just isn't any substitute for good tires and great suspension. Everything else has to go through them to get to the road. If they are crapola, all the mods in the world aren't worth a dime.

[uae mini]

I'm backing you up
I just differ on one thing though... if I interpreted you correctly and thats a big IF...
You mean you should spend alot on suspension and the KW's are worth alot of dough, but they sucked for some reason.

That doesn't mean that everyone who's got KW's has the same problem. It will be sorted out soon by them, but until then I would suggest you go else where with your hard earned cash.
It's a bummer to get dissapointed with something you take care of so much.. reminds me of my car with all the stock crap dieing on me... I was going to mention some but I don't want to bore you guys

I don't feel like typing anymore for some reason... I'm not trying to offend you in any way.. I don't see how I did

Quote: Originally Posted by NearlyNN

I had the same setup as my first coilovers. Notice I said my first. I had very similar problems and long discussions with KW. Their v.2 is for lowering. Show not go.

My car was so twitchy on the track, there were instructors that didn't want to drive it. At its highest setting the car was too low. I had no adjustability at all. Apring spacers are not a good answer, since you reduce travel. And what if you really want to raise it someday to do some real rallying. OUt of luck. Not what I expect from coilovers. When we went over the specs carefully, it seemed to show that no matter what, they were going to lower the car a bunch.

KW and I kind of came to terms. I thought they were good people who just didn't explain their product very well. I was told that they were working on a "sport" version for people that want to go to the track on occasion. Don't know if they have released it.

For what it is worth, I went to Ledas and I love them. I guarantee you, the one place I will never ever again worry about price is suspension. I'd rather rip mods out of my engine if I had to finance better suspension. There just isn't any substitute for good tires and great suspension. Everything else has to go through them to get to the road. If they are crapola, all the mods in the world aren't worth a dime.

[NearlyNN]

No offense at all. You were right in confusion. I hate to post a negative about a company and have refrained from doing so regarding this issue for over a year. Problem was evident in October, 2003. I was the one who should have been more careful not to offend. At least to say that not everyone has had the same problems with the KW v.2 as I did. I only mentioned it by name, finally, because of the nature of this thread.

As I stated, the North American people I spoke with were very nice. They did take care of the issue to my satisfaction. It took a while, but that was due in part to three parties (also a tuner) being involved and communications getting screwed up.

I understand that there are lots of people out there with v'2's and I understand that some of them do use them for trackdays. For the life of me, I don't know how. Even KW later said they weren't right for that and the info should have been clearer. They recommend the v.3 system.

That's sort of where my not fully explained money comment comes in. At the time, I had just begun doing trackdays and really didn't fully understand the importance of top-of-line suspension. I sort of did, which is one reason I went to KW because of their good reputation. Looking back, I should have gone right to KW's best system. As it is, I ended up with the Ledas which are super and very adjustable. It all worked out eventually.

Didn't mean to denigrate all of KW's products and sytems. Their success speaks for itself. However, it is still my opinion that the v.2's are not meant for the track because their highest ride height is often too low. Even KW agreed about this. They said it is meant more for lowered street use. I went to their web site, which I still have bookmarked to get the specs, but the site has changed a lot. Couldn't find the drop and range specs.

Quote: Originally Posted by uae mini

I'm backing you up
I just differ on one thing though... if I interpreted you correctly and thats a big IF...
You mean you should spend alot on suspension and the KW's are worth alot of dough, but they sucked for some reason.

That doesn't mean that everyone who's got KW's has the same problem. It will be sorted out soon by them, but until then I would suggest you go else where with your hard earned cash.
It's a bummer to get dissapointed with something you take care of so much.. reminds me of my car with all the stock crap dieing on me... I was going to mention some but I don't want to bore you guys

I don't feel like typing anymore for some reason... I'm not trying to offend you in any way.. I don't see how I did

[ERdoc]

Quote: Originally Posted by uae mini

check to see if your springs haven't been nicked
anyway, KW was my first choice before I saw those Bilstein's.... then I saw the Tein + EDFC for easy adjustability and that was it. Love at first site? (nope)... it was logic.

On the go adjustability is my 1st priority. Not to forget way cheaper than the Bilstein's I don't know why really... I mean these are Tein's we are talking about. Yes it would have cost more if it came with a pillow ball mount but they don't make them for the Mini.

I'm still awaiting the arrival of these gems and I hope I don't see any damaging signs that you have.

BOT, the KW's are very good from customer reports.. seriously they use them on porsches and motorsports. I'm surprised you waited this long and haven't checked them until know
Go to a specialist and have them dismantle it to see the problem up close... you are still standing there!! GO

The EDFC is a neat idea and does offer much convenience. However, I have reservation about the quality of Tein dampers in general. It would be great if Bilstein offered something similar for the PSS9, but it is not that difficult to adjust the PSS9 dampers manually. There are certain adjustments I would rather not temper with while driving, and damping of ths suspension is one of them. I have this on my E66 7 series and I find myself forever fiddling for the 'right' setting. Of couse there is never a 'right' setting so I leave it in auto mode instead and this has worked very well.

KW do offer some great stuff and their top of the range racing models are very very good, certainly good enough for Porsche. However, the V2 coilovers are more like 'consumer' stuff despite its high price. I am also less than impressed by their suggestion of using a pair of spring spacers to rectify my problem, without having inspected the dampers in the first place.

[ERdoc]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mike Edwards

Just a thought - as they're coilovers - have you checked the lock-rings on the spring seats are tight?

If they aren't, you would be amazed at how quickly the spring seats on the front units will wind themselves down the dampers...

Thank you for your suggestion. Yes, the lock-rings have been checked, they are tight. Either the spring has sagged or the damper is defective.

It looks like my KWs are heading towards Germany for the factory to inspect, and in the meantime I will see if I can get a set of PSS9 or Ledas. I don't think the latter are available in my partof the world, though.

[ERdoc]

Quote: Originally Posted by NearlyNN

I had the same setup as my first coilovers. Notice I said my first. I had very similar problems and long discussions with KW. Their v.2 is for lowering. Show not go.

My car was so twitchy on the track, there were instructors that didn't want to drive it. At its highest setting the car was too low. I had no adjustability at all. Apring spacers are not a good answer, since you reduce travel. And what if you really want to raise it someday to do some real rallying. OUt of luck. Not what I expect from coilovers. When we went over the specs carefully, it seemed to show that no matter what, they were going to lower the car a bunch.

KW and I kind of came to terms. I thought they were good people who just didn't explain their product very well. I was told that they were working on a "sport" version for people that want to go to the track on occasion. Don't know if they have released it.

For what it is worth, I went to Ledas and I love them. I guarantee you, the one place I will never ever again worry about price is suspension. I'd rather rip mods out of my engine if I had to finance better suspension. There just isn't any substitute for good tires and great suspension. Everything else has to go through them to get to the road. If they are crapola, all the mods in the world aren't worth a dime.

Thank you very much for your feedback. My car is also very twitchy, and a lot more so than when the V2s were first fitted. The front is 42mm lower than stock, despite the V2s are set at maximum permissible height!

The KW V2 has relative soft springs and are not suitable for track use. I also find them lower the car too much. I don't track my car, but even for fast street use they are not suitable when the road surfaces are poor.

I agree with you entirely regarding fitting the best possible suspension. I am particularly anal about the same, as well as wheels and tyres. My tuner has done some excellent to my MCS engine but it is a pity that the power cannot be put down to the road effectively.

I looked at the Leda website and they seem to offer several variants of their suspension. For fast street use I wonder what the best option would be?

Thank you again.

[uae mini]

I hope you get this issue resolved and then tell us more about your new suspension.
I feel your pain....

Stay tuned for a Tein SS report once I get them installed and tried out (on a track preferably).