Performance manifold

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1320autos (original)

I'm not sure but I believe MINIdriver85 and ARCrawford are both natually aspirated Coopers.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

Actually I have a MINI ONE...so, it's stil NA, but not a Cooper, .

Well spotted 1320! I'm also driving a MINI ONE. Having said that, the engine is the same as the Cooper (someone correct me if I'm wrong), so anything that would work for the Cooper should work for the ONE.

The general firm ideas for me thusfar are:

• Uprated handling (i.e. strut braces)
• Uprated stopping power (i.e. new high-performance discs and pads all round)
• More exciting sound and power (i.e. induction kit)
• More power (i.e. remap for 97 RON, taking mods into account)

However, I figured if I'm going to do something about getting more air in with an induction kit, and taking advantage of that with a remap, then I should probably do something about getting that air out afterwards too.

• More power (Not sure here, but ... exhaust manifold? possibly in conjunction with stock exhaust? possibly with new exhaust?)

A manifold is quite a big investment compared to a the individual costs of all the other planned upgrades I have for spring. Therefore, I'd like to be very clear about what the potential gains are from fitting a performance manifold to a naturally aspirated powerplant like the ONE/Cooper engine.

After reading up on some of the links that have been kindly provided in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that the best manifold for a CooperS may not in fact be the best manifold to put in a naturally aspirated engine... even if they do have a similar displacement. Therefore, seeing some dyno runs to demonstrate the performance of a particular manifold on a naturally aspirated engine will be important in making a choice.

Essentially, a remap of the ONE and the induction kit will hopefully provide plenty of power and torque at the top end of the rpm range... but I'd also like to make sure that the lower end and mid range get some punchy increases too. I'd particularly like to ensure that 2,800 - 5,500 rpm is as punchy as possible, since this is the range I spend most of my driving in (except in my most exhuberant of moods). And I tend to get stuck at about 3,500 - 4,000 rpm behind slow cars on country roads where I don't feel I have the acceleration to pass safely...

So for me, I'd like peak torque about 5,500 - 6,000 rpm (or thereabouts) and lots of torque on the curve before peak - through virtue of nice long primary tubes.

[Paul@1320]

Very well summed up ARCrawford and I hate to burst your bubble but you're not going to see the improvements you believe you are in trq / bhp.

The One/ Cooper engine is a hard one, we are working on a combo but we haven't found anything that works.

We have a lot of testing to do on the Cooper and we have some good performance ideas to try out and test.

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...fter-mods.html

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...d-project.html

Happy reading

[NeuroBeaker]

Thanks for the links Paul!

This might be a bit of a demanding post to answer, so my apologies in advance...

It was interesting reading about the 4-2-1 manifold and that it keeps a narrower diameter than the 4-1 (designed for the CooperS). That it outperformed the CooperS manifold just goes to show that it needs to be designed specifically for the engine and that a "one size fits all" option just doesn't work! Just as Matt's post above described:

Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs (original)

...the same LENGTH of header should be a good start as one for an S, but the primary diameter should be less, as it's flowing less gas. The way exhaust headers work (like Keith mentioned) is mostly about scavaging and reflections. Too big a tube is NOT the way to go, it's a power killer, and should be avoided at all costs.

I looked up on the MiniManiaUK website to see if I could find the 4-2-1 manifold you were talking about in this thread:

1320 Autos One / Cooper Rolling Road Project

And I came across this product (direct pictures of it further on):

MiniManiaUK: 4-2-1 Exhaust Manifold with Removable Cat

Is that the one you were talking about and tested on your rolling road? I think I might be getting confused again, because I thought I had a grip on what the manifold actually was and was under the impression it was the component that looked a bit like this (minus the heat wrap):

Or is that known as the "header"?

I had thought that the image below (actually the manifold? ) was the exhaust pipe that leads on from the above photo:

Or is the MiniManiaUK product a complete set of Manifold AND exhaust pipes? Also, does the fitment of this product require a new rear bumper for the MINI ONE? I notice that the exit of the exhaust is centrally located. But more to the point, if this is the system you tested on your ONE, do you have figures in the same formats as your test of the CooperS manifold and the test of the header and DNA muffler? (And what is a DNA muffler? The performance figures for it didn't look great on the ONE if mid-range is what you're going for.)

Also, I was just thinking about the theory of this... and if having a more free-flowing exhaust system adds horsepower and torque, then surely if you were driving sedately it would add mileage to your tank of fuel? As a further benefit, if it's more free flowing, then there would be less stress upon the engine... so does a performance manifold add reliability to a tuned car? Presumably, the only sacrifice would be quietness? I much prefer the sound of a throaty induction than the sound of an exhaust system designed purely for sound (if it was designed for power, I'd accept increases in volume).

Well, I think that's probably enough to be mulling over for one post... so I'll make way for the experts!

Many thanks,
Andrew.

[Dr Obnxs]

A Manifold typically takes one pipe to many or vice vera. There are two on your car: The intake manifold, and the exhaust manifold. Slang for the two are "intake" (Much abused phrase, as most call the thing with the filter this as well) and header for the exhaust side.

The exhaust system once down to a single pipe is called a "Cat-back" for obvious reasons. At least on post 74 cars here in the US, when cats became required by federal law.

Cat=catalytic converter.

Here in the US, a 4-2-1 also goes by the name of Tri-Y (think about it for a bit). They were made famous on the original Shelby GT-350 Mustang, as that was one of the parts he used to take the solid lifter 289 ci V-8 from 271 HP from ford to 307 HP as in the early Shelbys.

Equal length header refers to the fact that the primaries are all the same length. This means that each primary is "tuned" for the same peak efficiency RPM. You can think about them like pipes in a pipe organ. This is important because this has to do with the pulse reflection dynamics, and you want all the cylinders to work the same so that all the cylinders are doing the same thing at the same RPM. Stock exhaust manifolds (headers is typically reserved for performance exhaust manifolds) typically DON"T have equal lenght primaries, as it's more expensive to make. Also of note is that many so called "equal length" headers aren't really, but they are closer than factory.....

Hope all this stuff helps...

Matt

[MINIdriver85]

My plan is to fit the complete exhaust system, header, cat, cat-back, fit the air filter (actually a carbon airbox with a cone inside, from Gruppe M) and remap all at the same time This would be my stage 1

I'm already ok with the handling and I'm working on the brakes right now, guessing to have new pads, braided hoses and rotors fitted in a couple weeks, so I just have to work on the engine now, .

I'm going to take a look at the links provided by 1320...

@ARCrawford: You won't need a new bumper, just the black line under it, you have to buy the three pieces that compose it for the Cooper S and you'll have the central exit for the exhaust. The first photo you posted is the manifold, the second shows the cat-back system

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

My plan is to fit the complete exhaust system, header, cat, cat-back, fit the air filter (actually a carbon airbox with a cone inside, from Gruppe M) and remap all at the same time This would be my stage 1

Just to be side-tracked from performance exhaust manifolds for a moment: I'm thinking along similar lines... but not going to go for something as expensive as a GruppeM induction system. If I was going for carbon fibre, I'd probably get a Pipercross Viper with upgraded hoses (as I've heard the ones that come with it are naff)... but I'm really drawn by the sound of the John Cooper Motorsport Cone Air Filter as seen in the following videos (I'm sure Serby won't mind me putting his links up - as his car sounds unspeakably awesome):

Video 1: Don't be fooled by "Pipercross" on the side of the car, early in the video it shows the Cooper Motorsport Cone Air Filter under the hood of a MINI ONE.

YouTube - MINI Cooper + Induction Kit

Video 2: A convertible MINI ONE this time, but with the same induction system.

YouTube - My MINI Convertible

Video 3: Again, the same induction system on another MINI ONE... definately watch the end of this video, as there's a fantastic soundtrack driving through a tunnel!

YouTube - MINI One Convertible - Oulton Park

I know that an open cone won't develop the same sort of power as a closed carbon fibre system, as the air won't be as cold as it might be. But I think the gains to be had from a closed carbon fibre system are going to be marginal in a cold climate like Scotland. Furthermore, I may be able to help the open cone a bit some some sort of smooth pipe from the old intake to direct a flow of cool air towards it. We'll see...

And now, back to the exhaust system!

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

@ARCrawford: You won't need a new bumper, just the black line under it, you have to buy the three pieces that compose it for the Cooper S and you'll have the central exit for the exhaust.

Brilliant! I wonder where those can be purchased from...

Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs (original)

A Manifold typically takes one pipe to many or vice vera. There are two on your car: The intake manifold, and the exhaust manifold. Slang for the two are "intake" (Much abused phrase, as most call the thing with the filter this as well) and header for the exhaust side.

The exhaust system once down to a single pipe is called a "Cat-back" for obvious reasons. At least on post 74 cars here in the US, when cats became required by federal law.

Cat=catalytic converter.

Here in the US, a 4-2-1 also goes by the name of Tri-Y (think about it for a bit). They were made famous on the original Shelby GT-350 Mustang, as that was one of the parts he used to take the solid lifter 289 ci V-8 from 271 HP from ford to 307 HP as in the early Shelbys.

Equal length header refers to the fact that the primaries are all the same length. This means that each primary is "tuned" for the same peak efficiency RPM. You can think about them like pipes in a pipe organ. This is important because this has to do with the pulse reflection dynamics, and you want all the cylinders to work the same so that all the cylinders are doing the same thing at the same RPM. Stock exhaust manifolds (headers is typically reserved for performance exhaust manifolds) typically DON"T have equal lenght primaries, as it's more expensive to make. Also of note is that many so called "equal length" headers aren't really, but they are closer than factory.....

Hope all this stuff helps...

Matt

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

The first photo you posted is the manifold, the second shows the cat-back system.

Excellent stuff, thanks guys!

I had originally thought I understood the distinction between manifolds and cat-backs, but started to doubt myself (and subsequently got confused) because the MiniManiaUK link for the 4-2-1 manifold didn't have any images of the manifold itself - only the cat-back system.

Quote: Originally Posted by ARCrawford (original)

And I came across this product (direct pictures of it further on):

MiniManiaUK: 4-2-1 Exhaust Manifold with Removable Cat

Is that the one...

While their product for heat wrapping actually does have a picture of an exhaust manifold in it:

MiniManiaUK: Exhaust Manifold Heat Wrap with Stainless Straps

Anyway... it looks like (hopefully) Adam (MiniManiaUK) is selling the complete exhaust system (manifold + cat-back...) under the manifold listing - which looks a good deal providing this includes that same manifold that Paul dyno-ran to see good gains on a naturally aspirated engine.

Would be great to see some more detailed information on that dyno run... maybe some graphs of improvements plotted against the standard OEM manifold?

All the best,
Andrew.

[MINIdriver85]

I wouldn't have gone for a Gruppe M too, if I hadn't found it at half its price with just 3k miles on it...the guy said it was too loud for him...I'll have to see...as for the exhaust, yes, the picture on minimania, is wrong...but if the manifold they sell is the one who gave 10 bhp when Paul tested it...then I might consider buying it! I was thinking about getting a Brain 4-2-1 manifold at the moment, but that could change!

[lucachiarelli]

This is the best sounding mini one ive heard.

YouTube - Lohen LO3 150BHP Mini One/Cooper

[MINIdriver85]

yeah, I love that video too. Great sound!1

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1320autos (original)

Very well summed up ARCrawford and I hate to burst your bubble but you're not going to see the improvements you believe you are in trq / bhp.

The One/ Cooper engine is a hard one, we are working on a combo but we haven't found anything that works.

We have a lot of testing to do on the Cooper and we have some good performance ideas to try out and test.

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...fter-mods.html

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...d-project.html

Happy reading

So, on those good performance ideas to try out and test for a naturally aspirated Cooper engine... any hints on when those ideas may come to fruition? March would be a fantastic time to have a naturally aspirated engine product out...

And to grab a few quotes from the 1320 Autos One / Cooper Rolling Road Project:

Quote: Originally Posted by 1320autos (original)

At last we got back on the dyno today and tested Adam's Mini Mania exhaust 421 manifold, unfortunately I haven't got the time to do all the comparisons but I can tell you that it out performed the 4-1 at rpm in theory it shouldn't off.

It made 139bhp at 6021 and 124 ft lb at 5089 (4-1 manifold made 135.2 at 6210 and 121ft lb at 5667)this was with the DNA exhaust system and a STOCK air filter, we actually lost horsepower with no panel filter in the stock housing and with no housing and airfilter.

This news flash is over for now and when I get 5 mins I'll give you more facts and figures.

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

Thanks to Paul and his continuing efforts well done!
the 4-2-1 made 10bhp over stock and 5 over the 4-1 , you may be puzzled why it out performed the 4-1 at high rpm also , but bear in mind the 4-1 is designed for the forced induction engine (cooper s) not the n/a cooper and one ,as I said previously the one /cooper do not like the larger diameter exhaust (cooper s size) either ,if you step down a small amount in exhaust diameter from the 21/2 cooper s size the power increases by 3-4 bhp and the peak torque point moves.
Now for something even stranger ..... the 4-2-1 out performs the 4-1 on the cooper S also!! even at the high rpms , I believe the cylinder head is such a poor design that even when the engine is supercharged it still requires an extractor manifold to aid the gas flow through the head and valves -despite the higher gas speeds of s/charging.
This is the reason that ported heads with cam and valves add so much power and torque -we have seen + 32 bhp on the S and + 16 on the cooper/one.
Paul keep the manifold and try it on your drag car, just match the exhaust flange holes to your head with a rotary file ,with a nice smooth radius,(The manifold you have is one of our older ones and the new batch are already done) and try on the strip -the clock never lies - I think you will gain a full 1/4 second
I really do wish someone would make a twin cam head for the Mini

I don't suppose there are any graphs kicking about that show the power and torque increases across the rev range in comparison with the standard OEM manifold, are there? They'd certainly be great to have a look at!

[k-huevo]

I’ve started a thread about my custom header here MINI COOPER :: North American Motoring - Custom Header . The fabricator can be contacted at hogan151@yahoo.com, or in the U.S. Eastern Time 404-625-1882. For the naturally aspirated MINIs, drop him a line for your particular needs.

[MINIdriver85]

I'll take a look, thanks

[MINIdriver85]

1320autos...could you post a graph of the dyno run with the minimania header?

[MINIdriver85]

Renewing my request...PAul, could you post a graph of the dyno run with the minimania 4-2-1 manifold?
These ones I found today on NAM...but I can't understand what would be the gains of such a manifold, and the losses, if there are some...

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by ARCrawford (original)

Would be great to see some more detailed information on that dyno run... maybe some graphs of improvements plotted against the standard OEM manifold?

Quote: Originally Posted by ARCrawford (original)

I don't suppose there are any graphs kicking about that show the power and torque increases across the rev range in comparison with the standard OEM manifold, are there? They'd certainly be great to have a look at!

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

1320autos...could you post a graph of the dyno run with the minimania header?

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIdriver85 (original)

Renewing my request...PAul, could you post a graph of the dyno run with the minimania 4-2-1 manifold?

Well, Paul and Adam... it appears your eager public await that graph with baited breath!

Go on... you know you want to show us......