Torque more important than BHP?

[Razorlite]

As we all know bhp sells cars but torque wins races - I've been looking at some of the performance packages on offer and I see the bhp splattered all over the posts but not much mention of torque?

Does anyone have a compilation of torque (and rev range peak) / bhp for MCS performance packages from 1320, GTT, JCW, Lohen etc so we can get an idea of what is out there?

Or am I asking for too much?

Basically I just want to get a good idea what is available before I start spending some hard earned cash and would be good if we could get some matrix if possible that can be referenced by others or added to.

Cheers,

Mark

[alski]

i am sure your heading in the right direction with this, peak hp at 7200 rpm is not much use against a 20hp lower rated motor that has lots more torque available lower down the rev range
good luck

[Ant FR]

torque does'nt win races. Trust me i had a Tdi Ibiza with 330lb/ft torque. it was quick on the go, however with a shorter power band it needed good use of the gearbox to make swift progress.

Always remember it like this. BHp is how much it will do and Torque is how quick it does it.

Therefore if you have a High Bhp and low torque then it means you will do a lot but will take a long time to do.

the other way round you have high torque but low bhp, means it will not do so much but it will do it a lot more quickly ( therefor why diesels will feel faster than the BHP figures indicate.

The best car is where the Torque figure is quite close to the BHp figure. Which is a reason why a petrol Turbo is one of the best allround car as torque and BHp are usally balanced, such as on a tuned K-o3s 1.8t car which would show 230bhp and say 240 lbft torque.

but you are right you do need to know the torque as well as the BHp to make a good comparison.

[Razorlite]

Hi Ant,

you are right of course but I also like sensationalist headlines to get people reading and thinking..

Indeed, reasonable BHP / Torque on both counts is the winning combination and hopefully as low down as possible though crossover occurs at 5250 rpm so hopefully good low end torque with decent mid bhp is what we want if possible. If any tuners or anyone for that matter can post specs for the various performance package, I and I'm sure a lot of others would appreciate it just to get an idea what is out there and what's possible.

Alski:

Thanks, hopefully we wont need too much luck obtaining the data.

Mark

[Ant FR]

also the other thing to remember is BHP does tend to be more easy to predict, and if you measure 100 cars say with a works kit there will be a range of say 199 bhp to 220 bhp with a variance of say 10bhp from the average figure. however on Torque the variance will be a lot more. Torque seems to be affected more by the individual engine rather entirely than by the mods fitted.

[Razorlite]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

also the other thing to remember is BHP does tend to be more easy to predict, and if you measure 100 cars say with a works kit there will be a range of say 199 bhp to 220 bhp with a variance of say 10bhp from the average figure. however on Torque the variance will be a lot more. Torque seems to be affected more by the individual engine rather entirely than by the mods fitted.

Hmm must be a Mini thing, coming from the Evo scene torque figures seem to be pretty much stable across the board when performing RR tests?

edited to add:

When performing an RR of a standard car for benchmarking that is.

[BigShow]

All the tuners pretty much use the same mods to make power so its very difficult to find one that will just tune your engine for torque. Comparing my car to say Alski's there is nothing between us on either power and torque. However, I get more torque lower down because of my janspeed and he gets more from 5.5k rpm upwards because he's using the standard manifold.

IMO, the key is to go to your nearest tuner and ask for the products to be added to your car that have been proven to make power and not fall into the trap of add-ons that look/sound good but really don't give you any extra bangs for your bucks.

My nearest tuner is 1320 Autos and if I were to start my tuning life-cycle again I'd do it in 3 stages and if I got bored with the power offered by the stage 3 upgrade I'd drop some serious wedge and try stage 4.

Stage 1 (Approx 15bhp+ gain over stock):

15% pulley

Stage 2 (Approx 50bhp+ over stock):

17% Pulley
GRS Intercooler
Janspeed Manifold

Stage 3 (Approx 90bhp+ over stock):

17% Pulley
GRS Intercooler
Janspeed Manifold
Milltek Cat Back
RMW (1320) Head
RMW (1320) 440cc Injectors
RMW (1320) Live Remap

Stage 4 (223bhp over stock):

GTT 300T

Any tuner can give you Stage 1 & 2 and they'll all be similar on price, the key is to use the closest to you in all honesty. Stage 3 all comes down to who's head produces the most bhp per £ and at the moment the RMW (1320) one wins hands down thanks to the weak dollar and some proven dyno runs. Stage 4... well GTT have cornered the market there.

With regards to tuners posting their dyno results for their conversions... good luck...lots of us have been asking for that for some time. You're better off asking for those Mini2 members that have exclusive tuner conversions from 1320, GTT, Lohen, JCW & Minispeed etc... but to be honest there is such a variance in stock BHP that its really only relevant for cars that have been tuned from stage 2 and above.

Anywho, that's my 2 cents

[Razorlite]

Thanks BigShow - much appreciated!

Also, for a full overview would be handy if they could state peak bhp @ x revs and the same for torque (peak torque @ x revs). Obviously I can see why there is some reticence if they think it will harm their business but then again I would also take into account reliability / drivability etc as part of my overall decision in say going for a stage 3 / 4 package.

[alski]

175 lbs at 4000 rpm to about 185 at 6500 rpm
peak 187.6 at 5900rpm
242 bhp at 7050
based loosly on gtt 230+ spec but with milly catback on 05 facelift mcs

[Rigsey]

GTT220+GRS IC+GTT Manifold Torque:

2076 rpm = 150
3500 rpm = 180
4000 rpm = 188
4500 rpm = 190
5000 rpm = 188
5500 rpm = 185
6000 rpm = 185
6500 rpm = 175
7000 rpm = 170

Peak: 191.2 @ 4638 rpm

[Perm]

Hi,
my BBR 220 is quoted as having
218 BHP with 206lb ft ...... the wonders of a 19% reduction pulley.

Cheers

Perm

[BigShow]

Quote: Originally Posted by Perm (original)

Hi,
my BBR 220 is quoted as having
218 BHP with 206lb ft ...... the wonders of a 19% reduction pulley.

Cheers

Perm

Have you got a dyno run graph you could post on the other thread as it would be good to have a 19% pulley graph on there?

http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...aphs-here.html

[Revolution Mini Works]

Quote: Originally Posted by Razorlite (original)

Hi Ant,

you are right of course but I also like sensationalist headlines to get people reading and thinking..

Indeed, reasonable BHP / Torque on both counts is the winning combination and hopefully as low down as possible though crossover occurs at 5250 rpm so hopefully good low end torque with decent mid bhp is what we want if possible. If any tuners or anyone for that matter can post specs for the various performance package, I and I'm sure a lot of others would appreciate it just to get an idea what is out there and what's possible.

Alski:

Thanks, hopefully we wont need too much luck obtaining the data.

Mark

Here are 2 dyno's of the same car with these parts
Revolution Mini Works cylinder head, header, exhaust , RMW 440cc injectors, 15% pulley, RMW experimental Water to Air intercooler, Schrick cam and custom RMW ECU tune

Second dyno graph has a 19% pulley change as the only difference (also retuned the car to fit the 19% pulley)

[Revolution Mini Works]

Here is a comparison of our 2.0L stroker with stock JCW pulley vs the 19% 1.6L loaded car in the above post. The read graph is the stroker and the green is the 1.6L with all the bells and whisltes. The stroker still has the stock intercooler, throttle body and air box
Stroker has our cam, head, header, exhaust and injectors. Custom tuning done by me.

These are all WHP numbers and we believe them to be the most powerful M45 supercharged cars in the world. Our times on the track seem to prove that. If you want insane torque.....

HERE IT IS!

[MINI-Morgan]

Wow that 19% pulls well! But damn the stroker does even more so! Is there a stroker with 15% or 17% pulley?