Mounting turbo where rear box is, may be good on Cooper

[Ant FR]

Anybody thought about this, negates need for intercooler or even lowering compression of engine.

[Silent1]

I'm guessing you've seen this in PPC? It does work well, provided you don't care if you total your engine, as you would be in fairly unchartered waters.

As for leaving the compression, that's only possible if you're going to use silly low boost, otherwise you're going to have issues. The chap who did it in his 205 (IIRC) was doing it on an old engine so he doesn't have to worry about the ECU throwing a shitfit and packing it in.

[MINI-Morgan]

Think this was discussed to death on NAM and deemed as not worthwhile when its easier to just add one to the manifold. Still requires all the same considerations such as fuelling and cooling(although very much less important at very low boost). And just think of the lag to pressurise 2 metres of air in the pipes....

[Ant FR]

yeah did, Think he's using an emerald ECu anyway, But its not the first time i have seen that. Saw it first time on a Golf Mk2 a fair few years. they soudn absoloutly mental.

Just thought some plucky individual might want to try it on their cooper

[Ant FR]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINI-Morgan (original)

Think this was discussed to death on NAM and deemed as not worthwhile when its easier to just add one to the manifold. Still requires all the same considerations such as fuelling and cooling(although very much less important at very low boost). And just think of the lag to pressurise 2 metres of air in the pipes....

See if you read the article thats where your wrong. Cooling is'nt needed as the charge air is cooled by the pipework back to the engine, it also allows the air intake to be taken at the back of the car miles form any engine components. Lag is also not present due to the compression aspect and the way the turbo is set up. They used the anlogy of a hose pipe, which would allow water to come out first a full hose at 1m long or a full hose at 20m long. Neither, they'd both be the same.

I'll try and scan the article and post it up. a very interesting read, also why ilove that mag as they don;t just speak about things in their, they do it. some great features, esepcially the current builds involving the first ever Vag TDi Westfield and a mk2 escort with SAAB Turbo power

[MINI-Morgan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

See if you read the article thats where your wrong. Cooling is'nt needed as the charge air is cooled by the pipework back to the engine, it also allows the air intake to be taken at the back of the car miles form any engine components. Lag is also not present due to the compression aspect and the way the turbo is set up. They used the anlogy of a hose pipe, which would allow water to come out first a full hose at 1m long or a full hose at 20m long. Neither, they'd both be the same.

I'll try and scan the article and post it up. a very interesting read, also why ilove that mag as they don;t just speak about things in their, they do it. some great features, esepcially the current builds involving the first ever Vag TDi Westfield and a mk2 escort with SAAB Turbo power

Errr ok....the analogy of water just makes it sound like unbelievable. We're talking about compressing a gas to 8+psi where volume and density makes a huge difference. Whats easiest and quickest to pump up, a bike tyre or a car tyre?? That's a closer analogy as both require a volume of air to be compressed and one requires a far greater volume of air to be compressed to get the same pressure. Unless you mean they reduce the diameter of the pipe massively?

Post it up if you can Always worth a good read

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ant FR (original)

Lag is also not present due to the compression aspect and the way the turbo is set up. They used the anlogy of a hose pipe, which would allow water to come out first a full hose at 1m long or a full hose at 20m long. Neither, they'd both be the same.

Assuming both hoses are already completely full with water, when you turn the tap at one end, water will come out the other instantaneously. If both pipes are empty, when you turn the taps on each pipe, it would obviously emerge from the end of the 1m pipe first.

Another factor to consider is that water is not really compressible, unlike air. With the engine trying to suck air out, and acheive sub-atmospheric pressures in the intake pipes, the turbo has to replace this and then re-build the boost.

I'm afraid I need to agree with Morgan on this one - bike vs. car tyres is a much more apt analogy. And if keeping the same volume for the intakes, the pipe would need to have its diameter reduced to maintain the same volume.

But then you have the question of how difficult it might be to force air into the engine through a long thin tube vs. a short thick one...

Also, wasn't it agreed that higher pressures in the R50 engine wasn't a good idea and that it's far more sane to simply upgrade to the S? I know there's a good novelty value from discussing superchargers and turbos on the R50 engine, but practically, it's not really viable, is it?

All the best,
Andrew.

[MINIMANIAUK]

This is interesting , the turbine section of a turbo works by heat ,it extracts the heat energy and transforms it to rotation , by having the turbine the farthest away from the source of heat -in the tail exhaust -the turbine would be immensely inefficient as the heat is so much lower back there ,looks like the idea redefines the turbine rules?

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

This is interesting , the turbine section of a turbo works by heat ,it extracts the heat energy and transforms it to rotation , by having the turbine the farthest away from the source of heat -in the tail exhaust -the turbine would be immensely inefficient as the heat is so much lower back there ,looks like the idea redefines the turbine rules?

So... rather than forced induction, it'll be more like wafted induction?

[brainycheddar]

Squiers turbo system has been at it for years, I once saw an episode on two guys garage where they installed one onto a corvette and tested it out, here's the link on the sts website: Squires Turbo Systems - TV Episodes

[MINIMANIAUK]

with none of that loud whistle and pshhhhhh sound either !

[MINIMANIAUK]

They have taken the fact that a turbine needs the maximum heat to extract power ,and turned it around saying that the denser (cold) air drives the turbine better that hot air !!!!
Any benefits of fiiting to a large engine car (corvette) to pass greater quantity of air through the turbines is lost as the compressor has to also feed greater quantity to the induction side .
Given the "wrong " position of the turbo they could have improved it slightly using a multi stage turbine, 2 or more turbines on the same shaft ,this would prove expensive and still not produce any real boost ,
Why dont they simply put up a compressor map in the tech section and all would be answered for visitors to the site -rather than point out supercharger belts can snap?

[NeuroBeaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by brainycheddar (original)

Squiers turbo system has been at it for years, I once saw an episode on two guys garage where they installed one onto a corvette and tested it out, here's the link on the sts website: Squires Turbo Systems - TV Episodes

Do the on set mannerisms of those two remind you of Tim Taylor and Al Borland on Tool Time (from the sitcom Home Improvement)?

Still, pretty neat-looking system they've got there.

[MINI-Morgan]

Maybe if you can cause enough restriction in the exhaust you can get the pressure to turn the turbine fast.... hmmm. Me thinks big engines only??

[Silent1]

Quote: Originally Posted by MINIMANIAUK (original)

This is interesting , the turbine section of a turbo works by heat ,it extracts the heat energy and transforms it to rotation , by having the turbine the farthest away from the source of heat -in the tail exhaust -the turbine would be immensely inefficient as the heat is so much lower back there ,looks like the idea redefines the turbine rules?

What are you talking about? Since when did heat provide thrust? It's the simple action of air being forced over the wheel that spins the turbine, not the heat turning it! It's a known fact that the lower the exhaust gas, the more efficient you can spin the turbo, because you've got denser air and also you're not heating the charge either.